Author Topic: Fultz is overrated  (Read 47999 times)

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Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #150 on: June 11, 2017, 01:51:58 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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My realistic expectation/ceiling of Fultz is McCollum...

2016/2017 highlights of McCollum below...   lots of similarities imo.  From physical tools, skillset... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bybxsHWV40

McCollum is closer to his floor than ceiling.  You're disregarding Fultz's elite ball-handling and defensive potential (of which CJ has none).  Would you like him more if he was slotted for the 2nd round?
I think he doesn't like players like Fultz, that's all
He absolutely loves Mickey though FWIW.

Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #151 on: June 11, 2017, 01:54:22 AM »

Offline gouki88

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My realistic expectation/ceiling of Fultz is McCollum...

2016/2017 highlights of McCollum below...   lots of similarities imo.  From physical tools, skillset... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bybxsHWV40

McCollum is closer to his floor than ceiling.  You're disregarding Fultz's elite ball-handling and defensive potential (of which CJ has none).  Would you like him more if he was slotted for the 2nd round?
I think he doesn't like players like Fultz, that's all
He absolutely loves Mickey though FWIW.
LOL, TP. Athletic short unskilled bigs are way more valuable than elite scoring guards with near league best length at his position! Obviously  ::)
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Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #152 on: June 11, 2017, 01:55:47 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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My realistic expectation/ceiling of Fultz is McCollum...

2016/2017 highlights of McCollum below...   lots of similarities imo.  From physical tools, skillset... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bybxsHWV40

McCollum is closer to his floor than ceiling.  You're disregarding Fultz's elite ball-handling and defensive potential (of which CJ has none).  Would you like him more if he was slotted for the 2nd round?
I think he doesn't like players like Fultz, that's all

Because I compare Fultz to McCollum (realistic ceiling imo) vs comparing him to Kyrie or Harden.... this means i don't like Fultz??

sorry i will compare Fultz to Kobe next time...geez

You failed to address the reasons Fultz projects to be better than McCollum.  Was that intentional?
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Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #153 on: June 11, 2017, 01:59:07 AM »

Offline Somebody

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My realistic expectation/ceiling of Fultz is McCollum...

2016/2017 highlights of McCollum below...   lots of similarities imo.  From physical tools, skillset... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bybxsHWV40

McCollum is closer to his floor than ceiling.  You're disregarding Fultz's elite ball-handling and defensive potential (of which CJ has none).  Would you like him more if he was slotted for the 2nd round?
I think he doesn't like players like Fultz, that's all

Because I compare Fultz to McCollum (realistic ceiling imo) vs comparing him to Kyrie or Harden.... this means i don't like Fultz??

sorry i will compare Fultz to Kobe next time...geez
Realistic only in your opinion when most people are comparing him to DLillard and Kyrie with better D at least, also with you saying the top 5 are close to him when most people agree that he's head and shoulders above the rest save Ball if his dad ever shuts up...geez...
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Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #154 on: June 11, 2017, 02:00:41 AM »

Offline Somebody

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My realistic expectation/ceiling of Fultz is McCollum...

2016/2017 highlights of McCollum below...   lots of similarities imo.  From physical tools, skillset... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bybxsHWV40

McCollum is closer to his floor than ceiling.  You're disregarding Fultz's elite ball-handling and defensive potential (of which CJ has none).  Would you like him more if he was slotted for the 2nd round?
I think he doesn't like players like Fultz, that's all
He absolutely loves Mickey though FWIW.
LOL, TP. Athletic short unskilled bigs are way more valuable than elite scoring guards with near league best length at his position! Obviously  ::)
LOL TP to both


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Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #155 on: June 11, 2017, 02:17:46 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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My realistic expectation/ceiling of Fultz is McCollum...

2016/2017 highlights of McCollum below...   lots of similarities imo.  From physical tools, skillset... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bybxsHWV40

McCollum is closer to his floor than ceiling.  You're disregarding Fultz's elite ball-handling and defensive potential (of which CJ has none).  Would you like him more if he was slotted for the 2nd round?
I think he doesn't like players like Fultz, that's all
He absolutely loves Mickey though FWIW.

So did Ainge. That is why he drafted him

maybe we were wrong about Mickey. Get over it.... has nothing to do with Fultz

Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #156 on: June 11, 2017, 02:21:46 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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My realistic expectation/ceiling of Fultz is McCollum...

2016/2017 highlights of McCollum below...   lots of similarities imo.  From physical tools, skillset... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bybxsHWV40

McCollum is closer to his floor than ceiling.  You're disregarding Fultz's elite ball-handling and defensive potential (of which CJ has none).  Would you like him more if he was slotted for the 2nd round?
I think he doesn't like players like Fultz, that's all

Because I compare Fultz to McCollum (realistic ceiling imo) vs comparing him to Kyrie or Harden.... this means i don't like Fultz??

sorry i will compare Fultz to Kobe next time...geez
Realistic only in your opinion when most people are comparing him to DLillard and Kyrie with better D at least, also with you saying the top 5 are close to him when most people agree that he's head and shoulders above the rest save Ball if his dad ever shuts up...geez...

how is this believable ...  with the way he played defense last season? 

Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #157 on: June 11, 2017, 02:29:18 AM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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My realistic expectation/ceiling of Fultz is McCollum...

2016/2017 highlights of McCollum below...   lots of similarities imo.  From physical tools, skillset... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bybxsHWV40

McCollum is closer to his floor than ceiling.  You're disregarding Fultz's elite ball-handling and defensive potential (of which CJ has none).  Would you like him more if he was slotted for the 2nd round?
I think he doesn't like players like Fultz, that's all

Because I compare Fultz to McCollum (realistic ceiling imo) vs comparing him to Kyrie or Harden.... this means i don't like Fultz??

sorry i will compare Fultz to Kobe next time...geez
Realistic only in your opinion when most people are comparing him to DLillard and Kyrie with better D at least, also with you saying the top 5 are close to him when most people agree that he's head and shoulders above the rest save Ball if his dad ever shuts up...geez...

how is this believable ...  with the way he played defense last season?
Because the way he played defense for 1 season as an 18 year old on a terrible team in college doesn’t dictate the way he is going to play defense for the rest of his pro career?
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Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #158 on: June 11, 2017, 03:26:07 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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My realistic expectation/ceiling of Fultz is McCollum...

2016/2017 highlights of McCollum below...   lots of similarities imo.  From physical tools, skillset... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bybxsHWV40

McCollum is closer to his floor than ceiling.  You're disregarding Fultz's elite ball-handling and defensive potential (of which CJ has none).  Would you like him more if he was slotted for the 2nd round?

Really?  Wow. :o

Are you saying that McCollum lacks Fultz's ball-handling and defensive potential, or just defensive potential, btw, because CJ's got a great handle, iirc.  Sorry, I'm a little slow, haha.

Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #159 on: June 11, 2017, 04:25:38 AM »

Offline chambers

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My realistic expectation/ceiling of Fultz is McCollum...

2016/2017 highlights of McCollum below...   lots of similarities imo.  From physical tools, skillset... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bybxsHWV40

McCollum is closer to his floor than ceiling.  You're disregarding Fultz's elite ball-handling and defensive potential (of which CJ has none).  Would you like him more if he was slotted for the 2nd round?
I think he doesn't like players like Fultz, that's all

Because I compare Fultz to McCollum (realistic ceiling imo) vs comparing him to Kyrie or Harden.... this means i don't like Fultz??

sorry i will compare Fultz to Kobe next time...geez
Realistic only in your opinion when most people are comparing him to DLillard and Kyrie with better D at least, also with you saying the top 5 are close to him when most people agree that he's head and shoulders above the rest save Ball if his dad ever shuts up...geez...

how is this believable ...  with the way he played defense last season?


his D wasn't bad though. It's not perfect, but it's not awful either.

How many Washington games have you actually watched in full? They primarily played a zone under coach Romar.
You're over criticising him or seriously 'nit picking'.
Length, IQ, athlete, size, determination= the ingredients to a good defender. He has all those things.

He's 18 years old and hasn't really ever been taught how to defend. Stevens has made all these players great defenders. Look what he's turned KO, Rozier, Brown into as defenders.
We have one of the greatest player development coaches in the NBA who taught young guys like Fultz how to play defense and think about the game differently. It's how he got his Butler teams to the final four twice in a row.

Yes he's very raw, but he is obviously a hard worker with the right attitude.
He also has the physical tools to be an above average defender.
Remember he's 18 and raw. He's over a year younger than Josh Jackson. At 18 years old his coach Romar at Washington obviously didn't give a S*&$^ about defense, and didn't really care much about defense.

  Just remember that he won't get playing time for Brad Stevens if he's a defensive liability. He basically has no choice but to spend his entire rookie season learning how to defend in the NBA. It will be a shock/crash course but you have to consider his work ethic/IQ when looking at potential. Brown was certainly not a great defender in college or at the start of the year. But he's worked his ass off and it's gotten him time on the court in some of our most important games and he's defended like an NBA veteran.

Can't really see why he can't become a PG version of Kawahi Leonard. He has the freakish size/length for the position. The mid range game, the outside game, and he rebounds very very well for his position.

Look at his physical tools vs most NBA point guards and wings and even small forwards.
His wingspan is bigger than Paul George's wingspan lol- even slightly bigger than Dwayne Wade who is known as one of the longest shooting guards in NBA history.

Think about the point guards in the NBA finals right now. Surely you could see him being a better defender than Kyrie or Steph? And if he's scoring 25ppg in his prime per game while playing better D than those two mediocre defenders, we have a superstar on our hands.

Here's a good article for you:
Why Markelle Fultz isn’t a defensive liability

http://www.celticsblog.com/2017/6/5/15736110/why-markelle-fultz-isnt-a-defensive-liability-boston-celtics-nba-draft

« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 04:47:20 AM by chambers »
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Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #160 on: June 11, 2017, 07:22:49 AM »

Offline BlackCeltic

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I realize this sentiment is straight blasphemy around here these days, but I just can't find myself jumping on the Fultz wagon.  There is something about his game that doesn't inspire me with great confidence that this guy is the next NBA superstar.  One thing is that he doesn't look super explosive to me.  He looks kinda slow and earth bound relative to top level NBA athletes.  I am also not a fan of his posture on the court.  He always seems to be somewhat awkwardly bent forward at the torso with his neck bending the opposite way.  From what I've seen, his greatest strength is his ability to make contested, off-the-dribble long jumpers.  I don't want a guy who makes his living off those kinds of shots.  They are much harder at the next level. 

He could certainly prove me wrong.  There are obviously some good reasons he is the consensus number 1 pick, but I have my reservations.

Arent you the same person who hated on Jaylen Brown from the moment he was drafted. I want Fultz even MORE now.

No, I am not that person.  I never hated on Jaylen Brown.  You've got me confused with someone else.

I confused you with Coach, my bad.

Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #161 on: June 11, 2017, 07:24:27 AM »

Offline BlackCeltic

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My realistic expectation/ceiling of Fultz is McCollum...

2016/2017 highlights of McCollum below...   lots of similarities imo.  From physical tools, skillset... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bybxsHWV40

McCollum is closer to his floor than ceiling.  You're disregarding Fultz's elite ball-handling and defensive potential (of which CJ has none).  Would you like him more if he was slotted for the 2nd round?
I think he doesn't like players like Fultz, that's all

Because I compare Fultz to McCollum (realistic ceiling imo) vs comparing him to Kyrie or Harden.... this means i don't like Fultz??

sorry i will compare Fultz to Kobe next time...geez

You failed to address the reasons Fultz projects to be better than McCollum.  Was that intentional?

At least Fultz is taller at 6'4 with a 6'11 wingspan.

Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #162 on: June 11, 2017, 07:45:29 AM »

Offline loco_91

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My realistic expectation/ceiling of Fultz is McCollum...

2016/2017 highlights of McCollum below...   lots of similarities imo.  From physical tools, skillset... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bybxsHWV40

McCollum is closer to his floor than ceiling.  You're disregarding Fultz's elite ball-handling and defensive potential (of which CJ has none).  Would you like him more if he was slotted for the 2nd round?
I think he doesn't like players like Fultz, that's all

Because I compare Fultz to McCollum (realistic ceiling imo) vs comparing him to Kyrie or Harden.... this means i don't like Fultz??

sorry i will compare Fultz to Kobe next time...geez

You failed to address the reasons Fultz projects to be better than McCollum.  Was that intentional?

At least Fultz is taller at 6'4 with a 6'11 wingspan.

The difference between Fultz and McCollum is that Fultz is a big PG and McCollum is an average-sized SG. Everyone focuses on Fultz's scoring but it's his passing that will make him unguardable. McCollum isn't a bad passer for a SG, but he isn't the type to rack up assists.

Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #163 on: June 11, 2017, 08:10:48 AM »

Offline Who

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My realistic expectation/ceiling of Fultz is McCollum...

2016/2017 highlights of McCollum below...   lots of similarities imo.  From physical tools, skillset... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bybxsHWV40

I agree with the comparison but not as a a ceiling ... I see McCollum or Kyrie as a realistic comparison for Fultz if Fultz does not fulfill all of his talent (as Kyrie & McCollum have not = failure to properly develop PG skills + defense).

I look at Fultz finishing up somewhere along the development line of say

.... McCollum to Kyrie to Lillard to Harden to Jerry West

Anywhere from a borderline All-Star to perennial All-Star an All-NBA player to one of the greatest guards to ever play.

--  I choose Jerry West as a comparison because he was a combo-guard with high level shooting ability and handles / passing which I think is something Fultz can be = more so than what Wade was who was more of a slasher and more reliant on elite athleticism whereas Fultz is more of an above average athlete.

Fultz has such a high ceiling because of (1) his physical gifts (2) his high skill-level in terms of shooting, handles and passing (3) capacity to have an all-round game (scoring, passing, defense, rebounding).

So to sum up = very high ceiling but he could finish up at a lot of different places along that development curve because Fultz still has a lot of work to do. Main concerns = He is more of a combo guard than a true PG. Doesn't play defense consistently.

Re: Fultz is overrated
« Reply #164 on: June 11, 2017, 08:14:55 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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My realistic expectation/ceiling of Fultz is McCollum...

2016/2017 highlights of McCollum below...   lots of similarities imo.  From physical tools, skillset... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bybxsHWV40

McCollum is closer to his floor than ceiling.  You're disregarding Fultz's elite ball-handling and defensive potential (of which CJ has none).  Would you like him more if he was slotted for the 2nd round?
I think he doesn't like players like Fultz, that's all

Because I compare Fultz to McCollum (realistic ceiling imo) vs comparing him to Kyrie or Harden.... this means i don't like Fultz??

sorry i will compare Fultz to Kobe next time...geez

I don't think your comparison is nuts and you can definitely see the similarities offensively (change of speed, mid-range game, etc.).

Keep in mind however that you're looking at a 25-year-old McCollum and an 18-year-old Fultz.

If you compare them as freshmen you can see the differences emerge.

1. Their numbers are on face value not too different, but when you look at blocks (1.2 vs. 0.2) you see evidence of Fultz's advantage in length and reach.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/cj-mccollum-1.html#site_menu_link
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/markelle-fultz-1.html

2. you need to keep in mind that Fultz is putting up those numbers in a top conference while McCollum is doing it in the Patriot league, which is worlds different. McCollum's freshman numbers in the Pac-12 would likely have been significantly worse.

3. If you want to see the level of competition and a view of what younger McCollum was like, see this video rather than the one you posted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQkmaFY7WUs&t=16s. Even there, that's CJ's junior year (age 20) vs. Fultz at 18.

4. You notice two things there. One, the guys CJ is playing against are just not on the same level at all. And two, even at age 20 against inferior competition, McCollum had significantly more trouble getting his shot off, and it was a slower release. You could imagine Fultz absolutely destroying that level of competition on a nightly basis. Fultz gets so much separation at age 18, against superior competition, compared to what CJ was doing at age 20 against a bunch of guys with inferior athletic skill.

5. You also see, as others have noted, that McCollum is a nearly pure SG while Fultz is a PG with SG skills and size. CJ just does not have the same skills in terms of finding others and creating offense for others. Fultz is bigger, faster, and plays more like a PG.

I think if you put this all together, there are many objective criteria on which Fultz has a clear advantage. You've noted a similarity in scoring style that makes sense to me, but as you project out and think of what a 25-year-old Fultz will look like compared to that video of McCollum at age 25, there are many, many reasons to believe Fultz will be the superior player.