Poll: Thomas for Kemba and #11

[Dannys Chipotle Guy]

Charlotte hangs up the phone. And I love IT.

You're talking about a guy in Walker who is almost as good offensively, much better defensively, a year younger, is signed on a friendly deal for 2 more years, and IT has an expiring deal and an injury. Then Charlotte throws in the #11 pick on top of it?

"almost as good offensively"

nope.

Thomas's 2017 season was a combination of efficiency and volume only matched by 2016 Steph and 2014 KD.

Kemba is a really good scorer, but Thomas is way better on offense.

People on this blog seem to fail to grasp the difference between a good scorer and IT.

They seem to look at guys who can put up quasi-efficent 20-24 ppg and just equate their offense to Isaiah Thomas. No. Isaiah Thomas is a truly dominant scorer.

People really havent grasped how good and how efficient he was. Hes a top 5 scorer in this league.

We're nitpicking over adjectives. The point is that while IT is the better offensive player, Walker arguably makes up for it by being an above average defender. Whatever you may think about the odds of the #11 pick, it's not a throw-in. This trade supposes IT has serious value over the top of Walker, even though Walker is younger and on a better contract and a much better defender.

Whether the offensive advantage is 'small' or 'moderate' or whatever, it doesn't make up for an equally large defensive difference, the contract, and the pick.

They both had career years offensively, so that's a wash unless you have a crystal ball regarding Walker getting worse and IT staying the same.

PLAYER 1:
23/5.5/3.9 on 44/40/85/ 57% TS, 2.1 turnovers, offensive +/- of 3.4
1.1 steals, 0.3 blocks, defensive +/- of (-0.4)

PLAYER 2:
29/5.9/2.7 on 46/38/91/ 63% TS, 2.8 turnovers, offensive +/- of 4.5
0.9 steals, 0.2 blocks, defensive +/- of  (-2.9)

Nobody (at least not me) is arguing for Walker as the better player. I'm just saying the trade makes no sense for Charlotte. Lottery picks, defense and contracts matter, and while IT is a helluva player and a top-5 scorer, he's NOT a top-5 player, and Walker is pretty darn good himself.

You think that Kemba's defense and contract make up for the gap in offense? I dont think they do and I dont think its all that close.

[byennie]

You think that Kemba's defense and contract make up for the gap in offense? I dont think they do and I dont think its all that close.

I do:

1) If you are Charlotte
2) If you are *also* adding the #11 pick

I'm NOT saying I'd pull the trigger for Boston. It's a double "no".

[KG Living Legend]

- The trade doesn't work in the trade machine.

- I bet they wouldn't even give us #11 on its own for IT, never mind #11+Kemba.

- If (for whatever reason) the Hornets do it, how do we create enough cap space to go after Hayward?

 Come on man just throw in Mickey or Jackson and it works

[KG Living Legend]

A few thoughts and then 2 questions
1) People really do not understand how good offensively IT was last year
2) The 11th pick is a dice roll that projects to get you a rotation player on average
3) IT is currently rehabbing an injury and is extremely unlikely to be traded
4) IT, along with Horford, is the least likely Celtic player to be traded this offseason
5) The celtics are already at a roster crunch

Given all this why are we constantly seeing trade proposals that
1) suggest ways of trading an injured player that is extremely unlikely to be traded right now
2) where are the roster spots coming from in all of these 2 for 1 and 3 for 1 proposals?

 You have to throw in Mickey and or Jackson to make it work.

[KG Living Legend]

 The fact that it's almost 50/50 in the poll let's me know it's a decent idea.

[csfansince60s]

I voted NO.

In a vacuum, a decent trade for both.

We are not in a vacuum.

Ask Hayward/Griffin/Millsap which they would prefer here, IT or #11 + Walker.

I think that the answer is pretty obvious. IT will attract them far more.

Bad juju to trade IT, especially now:

1. Face of the franchise (I know, I've said this often)

2. Carried our asses all year long (exemplified loyalty and Celtic Pride)

3. Was the reason Horford came here>>>>bad message to send

4. He's injured and we move on from him

Lots of trade IT proposals lately. I don't get it.

[Dannys Chipotle Guy]

You think that Kemba's defense and contract make up for the gap in offense? I dont think they do and I dont think its all that close.

I do:

1) If you are Charlotte
2) If you are *also* adding the #11 pick

I'm NOT saying I'd pull the trigger for Boston. It's a double "no".

Yeah thats reasonable.

You can justify it for both sides. I think most would agree that Charlotte gets the best player in the deal and for a team kinda in no-mans land right now it might be wise to bring in a guy who can transform a team (like Isaiah has done in Boston).

On the other hand, for Boston, if you are going to move on from Isaiah due to concerns about defense, this is a better return then you are going to get anywhere else.

Ultimately, I think the deal is worse for Boston because they give up the best player in the deal and Kemba's contract and youth and the 11 pick dont really enough value in my mind to justify losing Thomas.

[celticsclay]

- The trade doesn't work in the trade machine.

- I bet they wouldn't even give us #11 on its own for IT, never mind #11+Kemba.

- If (for whatever reason) the Hornets do it, how do we create enough cap space to go after Hayward?

 Come on man just throw in Mickey or Jackson and it works

I am not thinking either of those guys are on the team next year.

Roster Spots
Fultz
Zizic
Rozier
Bradley
Smart
Crowd
IT
Horford
Brown
KO (Or first big off bench)
Amir (or second starting big)
Hayward
Green (or other offensive bench guy) 

Potential for last two spots
Jerekbro
Yab?
Nader?
Second round pick?

Obviously there are some spots that could be opened easily enough, but we have too many assets as is. We need to do 2 for 1 trades. Not the other way around.

[Big333223]

I don't understand this trade from Boston's perspective at all and am flabbergasted by how many posters have voted yes.

I can get behind the right Isaiah trade but trading him for a PG who isn't as good as he is and a middling draft pick is something I can't make sense of.

[Boris Badenov]

TPs for celticsclay, saltlover, Chipotle Guy, and Ilikesports, for writing all the stuff I would have wanted to say.

We've had similar sorts of discussions over the years, not just about IT but other players. And the thing is, there's a big difference between good and great. And there's an even bigger difference between great and elite.

Thomas's scoring this year was elite. You simply cannot say "but height!" or "but defense!" (or both) and think that they meaningfully qualify what he did. It's a perimeter offense league right now, and Isaiah Thomas is elite with a capital "E" at that very thing.

The difference between scoring 23ppg and 29ppg is enormous, and the effiicency difference is massive too.

You know how many times someone has scored 23+ per game at 56% TS or better, in the 3 point era?

227

You know how many times someone has scored 28+ per game at 62% TS or better over the same period?

12

And of those, 5 years are by Adrian Dantley and 3 are by KD. The total number of other players with such a season is FIVE. Steph Curry has done it only once.

Kemba Walker is in the first group and Isaiah Thomas is in the second group. They are not even remotely comparable.

[mctyson]

Charlotte hangs up the phone. And I love IT.

You're talking about a guy in Walker who is almost as good offensively, much better defensively, a year younger, is signed on a friendly deal for 2 more years, and IT has an expiring deal and an injury. Then Charlotte throws in the #11 pick on top of it?

Kemba Walker will never produce a season like IT had this year.

[blink]

TPs for celticsclay, saltlover, Chipotle Guy, and Ilikesports, for writing all the stuff I would have wanted to say.

We've had similar sorts of discussions over the years, not just about IT but other players. And the thing is, there's a big difference between good and great. And there's an even bigger difference between great and elite.

Thomas's scoring this year was elite. You simply cannot say "but height!" or "but defense!" (or both) and think that they meaningfully qualify what he did. It's a perimeter offense league right now, and Isaiah Thomas is elite with a capital "E" at that very thing.

The difference between scoring 23ppg and 29ppg is enormous, and the effiicency difference is massive too.

You know how many times someone has scored 23+ per game at 56% TS or better, in the 3 point era?

227

You know how many times someone has scored 28+ per game at 62% TS or better over the same period?

12

And of those, 5 years are by Adrian Dantley and 3 are by KD. The total number of other players with such a season is FIVE. Steph Curry has done it only once.

Kemba Walker is in the first group and Isaiah Thomas is in the second group. They are not even remotely comparable.

Is the general assumption here that IT will play at this level for 4-5 more years?  With only two players ever repeating that level of play, it doesn't seem that the odds are in IT's favor.

I don't know if this is the trade that would make me sell high on IT or not, but I don't see how it is an automatic assumption that IT stays at this level of efficiency.

[Rosco917]

I can't believe how little defense is valued on this site.

If IT went to the Spurs, Cavs, Wizards, Rockets, OKC, or Golden State, and others, he'd come off the bench. There is no way those teams put up with the team having to cover-up his lack of defensive value, to watch him just score. And pay him max, lol.   

If we're lucky enough to get a Hayward, Fultz or Griffin you realize the number of shots IT takes will decrease, along with his scoring average, and he'll be expected to facilitate, and gulp...defend.

[blink]

I can't believe how little defense is valued on this site.

If IT went to the Spurs, Cavs, Wizards, Rockets, OKC, or Golden State, and others, he'd come off the bench. There is no way those teams put up with the team having to cover-up his lack of defensive value, to watch him just score. And pay him max, lol.   

If we're lucky enough to get a Hayward, Fultz or Griffin you realize the number of shots IT takes will decrease, along with his scoring average, and he'll be expected to facilitate, and gulp...defend.

I think there are a lot of us that value def here.  I think that is why there is a sizeable group here that feels we are at such a disadvantage def with IT (especially in the playoffs). 

Of course people go crazy when he drops 50+ on washington, but we forget about the 12 and 13  point games he had in the same playoffs.

[colincb]

http://bkref.com/tiny/40pds

IT had a significantly better 2017 than Walker did as evidenced in the stats above.