Poll: Thomas for Kemba and #11

[Rosco917]

I can't believe how little defense is valued on this site.

If IT went to the Spurs, Cavs, Wizards, Rockets, OKC, or Golden State, and others, he'd come off the bench. There is no way those teams put up with the team having to cover-up his lack of defensive value, to watch him just score. And pay him max, lol.   

If we're lucky enough to get a Hayward, Fultz or Griffin you realize the number of shots IT takes will decrease, along with his scoring average, and he'll be expected to facilitate, and gulp...defend.

I think there are a lot of us that value def here.  I think that is why there is a sizeable group here that feels we are at such a disadvantage def with IT (especially in the playoffs). 

Of course people go crazy when he drops 50+ on washington, but we forget about the 12 and 13  point games he had in the same playoffs.

We're not talking about a player that is a poor defender, we're talking about defensive value, strictly because of his lack of size. On a team of 6 foot and under IT would be a fine defender. But we're talking about the modern NBA. He's simply one of the least valuable defenders in the league, and will be a continual target to be taken advantage of. And especially in the playoffs. His true value is off the bench, where the timing of when he comes in is better monitored. That said, I love the guy, but let's be realistic.

[Boris Badenov]

I can't believe how little defense is valued on this site.

If IT went to the Spurs, Cavs, Wizards, Rockets, OKC, or Golden State, and others, he'd come off the bench. There is no way those teams put up with the team having to cover-up his lack of defensive value, to watch him just score. And pay him max, lol.   

If we're lucky enough to get a Hayward, Fultz or Griffin you realize the number of shots IT takes will decrease, along with his scoring average, and he'll be expected to facilitate, and gulp...defend.

The second part of what you said is obvious and uninformative. Steph Curry scored less this year with Durant on his team, and his role changed. Ray Allen scored less and was "expected to defend" when he came to the Celtics. So? Gordon Hayward would get much better shot opportunities with IT on the floor rather than, say, Marcus Smart. And yes, IT might be able to do more on defense. How do you know that wouldn't be the best lineup we could field?

And there's no basis in fact for the first part of what you said. It's just your opinion, which is fine. but you can't say for sure you know whether those teams would start him. Other championship contenders have started really bad defenders before because they were good offensively. IT might be a worse defender than many of those players, but he's also a much better offensive player. He just made second team All-NBA, and you're 100% positive that any other really good team in the league would bench him? I can't think of any historical parallel for that situation.

But none of that really says much at all about the question posed in this thread, which is whether it's a good idea to trade IT for Kemba Walker. If you want IT gone, fine, but you can do a heck of a lot better than Kemba Walker and a late lottery pick. Send him out WITH a pick to get a much better player (like Butler), for example.

[Moranis]

Walker makes 12 million next year and 12 million the year after and then is an unrestricted free agent in the summer of 2019, so this trade actually significantly hurts the cap space this summer, but would be a big ease of the cap burden in the 18/19 season before having a Walker extension kick in presumably for similar dollars as Thomas.  So this contract advantage isn't all that significant and might actually be worse given adding Walker + 11 makes it impossible to add a max contract without trading Bradley for future draft considerations. 

[slamtheking]

wouldn't touch this deal.  never been enamored with Kemba and the 11th pick will not be nearly as good as IT.

[Ilikesports17]

I dont make the deal because I dont think Kemba Walker is better than Isaiah Thomas and more importantly because I dont feel good about Kemba Walker being a part of this team long term.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Horrible idea.  Any others that we need to start new threads for?  Or can we make one catch-all entitled "NBA 2k stuff that will thankfully never happen"?

[jakeopp]

Charlotte doesn't consider this at all. They aren't winning anything with Kemba unless they get several major pieces, but trading the #11 pick and Kemba doesn't put them in much better shape going forward.

[Ilikesports17]

Charlotte doesn't consider this at all. They aren't winning anything with Kemba unless they get several major pieces, but trading the #11 pick and Kemba doesn't put them in much better shape going forward.

They are in no-mans land either way.

Its better to be in the Atlanta Hawks/Toronto Raptors half of no-mans land than the Chicago Bulls/Detroits Pistons half. In my opinion, IT could put you in the more fun half. He did it for us.

[More Banners]

I voted maybe. Depends what number Kemba gets. If it's #8...

[Ilikesports17]

I voted maybe. Depends what number Kemba gets. If it's #8...

what are you talking about?

[saltlover]

TPs for celticsclay, saltlover, Chipotle Guy, and Ilikesports, for writing all the stuff I would have wanted to say.

We've had similar sorts of discussions over the years, not just about IT but other players. And the thing is, there's a big difference between good and great. And there's an even bigger difference between great and elite.

Thomas's scoring this year was elite. You simply cannot say "but height!" or "but defense!" (or both) and think that they meaningfully qualify what he did. It's a perimeter offense league right now, and Isaiah Thomas is elite with a capital "E" at that very thing.

The difference between scoring 23ppg and 29ppg is enormous, and the effiicency difference is massive too.

You know how many times someone has scored 23+ per game at 56% TS or better, in the 3 point era?

227

You know how many times someone has scored 28+ per game at 62% TS or better over the same period?

12

And of those, 5 years are by Adrian Dantley and 3 are by KD. The total number of other players with such a season is FIVE. Steph Curry has done it only once.

Kemba Walker is in the first group and Isaiah Thomas is in the second group. They are not even remotely comparable.

Is the general assumption here that IT will play at this level for 4-5 more years?  With only two players ever repeating that level of play, it doesn't seem that the odds are in IT's favor.

I don't know if this is the trade that would make me sell high on IT or not, but I don't see how it is an automatic assumption that IT stays at this level of efficiency.

That's not my assumption, but as I pointed out earlier, Kemba Walker had his career year offensively also, and it's about equal to IT's career averages.  It's fine to assume that IT had his career year, but it's not unreasonable to think Walker just had his too.

[saltlover]

I voted maybe. Depends what number Kemba gets. If it's #8...

what are you talking about?

I'm assuming he wants to break out his old Antoine Walker gear.

[blink]

TPs for celticsclay, saltlover, Chipotle Guy, and Ilikesports, for writing all the stuff I would have wanted to say.

We've had similar sorts of discussions over the years, not just about IT but other players. And the thing is, there's a big difference between good and great. And there's an even bigger difference between great and elite.

Thomas's scoring this year was elite. You simply cannot say "but height!" or "but defense!" (or both) and think that they meaningfully qualify what he did. It's a perimeter offense league right now, and Isaiah Thomas is elite with a capital "E" at that very thing.

The difference between scoring 23ppg and 29ppg is enormous, and the effiicency difference is massive too.

You know how many times someone has scored 23+ per game at 56% TS or better, in the 3 point era?

227

You know how many times someone has scored 28+ per game at 62% TS or better over the same period?

12

And of those, 5 years are by Adrian Dantley and 3 are by KD. The total number of other players with such a season is FIVE. Steph Curry has done it only once.

Kemba Walker is in the first group and Isaiah Thomas is in the second group. They are not even remotely comparable.

Is the general assumption here that IT will play at this level for 4-5 more years?  With only two players ever repeating that level of play, it doesn't seem that the odds are in IT's favor.

I don't know if this is the trade that would make me sell high on IT or not, but I don't see how it is an automatic assumption that IT stays at this level of efficiency.

That's not my assumption, but as I pointed out earlier, Kemba Walker had his career year offensively also, and it's about equal to IT's career averages.  It's fine to assume that IT had his career year, but it's not unreasonable to think Walker just had his too.

I am completely on board with all of that.

[Beat LA]

I voted NO.

In a vacuum, a decent trade for both.

We are not in a vacuum.

Ask Hayward/Griffin/Millsap which they would prefer here, IT or #11 + Walker.

I think that the answer is pretty obvious. IT will attract them far more.

Bad juju to trade IT, especially now:

1. Face of the franchise (I know, I've said this often)

2. Carried our asses all year long (exemplified loyalty and Celtic Pride)

3. Was the reason Horford came here>>>>bad message to send

4. He's injured and we move on from him

Lots of trade IT proposals lately. I don't get it.

Not to mention that Kemba just had a procedure done on his left knee, to boot, so neither guy is in tip-top shape right now.  I would move IT to Detroit for 12, though (assuming that the Pistons would do it, that is), but that's because I'm nuts, lol .

[More Banners]

I voted maybe. Depends what number Kemba gets. If it's #8...

what are you talking about?

I'm assuming he wants to break out his old Antoine Walker gear.

Ah, you mean my NEW Kemba Walker gear...

Also like to mention his name now and then just because Danny has traded the all star "face of the franchise" before.  Two of them. Rondo was the face man after Pierce/KG were traded.

Oh wait. Danny has traded each of the past 3 faces of the franchise!  Every one he's had since taking over. Walker, Pierce, Rondo...IT next?  We are expected to draft his replacement, after all.