The Perfect IT trade

[jambr380]

I think there is a massive misunderstanding about IT. He is NOT the 3rd best scorer in the league, he was the 3rd leading scorer in a season.

He is clutch, he is explosive, he easily changes pace, but it is not a given that PG, for example, could not match his production (with better rebounding and defense, of course)

Other than, you know, him having done it. Or gotten within 5 points per game of doing it.

What? 5 points? That is a lot when you are comparing scorers. Thomas basically matched George's best scoring season last year ('15-'16). I love George and would gladly do a straight up trade for him with IT, but Thomas is the overall better scorer.

[Dino Pitino]

I think there is a massive misunderstanding about IT. He is NOT the 3rd best scorer in the league, he was the 3rd leading scorer in a season.

He is clutch, he is explosive, he easily changes pace, but it is not a given that PG, for example, could not match his production (with better rebounding and defense, of course)

Wait, if Paul George could match ITs production, then why didnt he.

Thomas was more efficient than George(by a lot) on a much greater volume than George.

Thomas is a top 5 scorer in the NBA. No doubt. I think KD is better. I think Harden and Curry might also be. Kyrie is a better ISO scorer, but I think Thomas is the better all around scorer. Lebron could also probably score better than Thomas. I think hes better than Westbrook but I understand the argument against it.

I dont think any one else can really lay a legit claim that they are a better scorer than Thomas.

Isaiah is a top 5 regular season scorer.

If you hold his injuries against him.

Was he injured the previous two postseasons, too? No. His seriously re-injured the hip in Game 6 vs WAS, right? Before that he was able to go off for 53, so he wasn't THAT injured for most of this postseason.

[Rosco917]

The other team that is prime for an IT4 trade are the Mavericks.
Gotta give Dirk some good remaining years.

IT4 for that 7th pick sounds pretty nifty.

The Mavs have the 9th pick.

The 7th pick belongs to the Wolves. According to rumors, Thibs wants to swap Rubio with Courtney Lee. If that's the case, I guess IT would be a good fit for them next to Lee.

I stand corrected.
IT4 for the 9th pick still sounds pretty nifty

In a heart beat!
With one caveat, until they actually play with him, free agents will be hesitant to sign with the Celtics without IT being on the roster. They don't realize they'll have to work their tails off on the defensive end to get the team defense to actually properly function with him on the floor.

All to get the opportunity to watch him mostly just score on the other end. 

[OldSchoolDude]

I think there is a massive misunderstanding about IT. He is NOT the 3rd best scorer in the league, he was the 3rd leading scorer in a season.

He is clutch, he is explosive, he easily changes pace, but it is not a given that PG, for example, could not match his production (with better rebounding and defense, of course)

Other than, you know, him having done it. Or gotten within 5 points per game of doing it.

What? 5 points? That is a lot when you are comparing scorers. Thomas basically matched George's best scoring season last year ('15-'16). I love George and would gladly do a straight up trade for him with IT, but Thomas is the overall better scorer.

I actually think PG13 is the better scorer.  George and Thomas can both score 20+, but George can do it on less shots, which makes him the better scorer.  Also, PG13 is a plus defender, and IT is a double minus defender. 

[jambr380]

I think there is a massive misunderstanding about IT. He is NOT the 3rd best scorer in the league, he was the 3rd leading scorer in a season.

He is clutch, he is explosive, he easily changes pace, but it is not a given that PG, for example, could not match his production (with better rebounding and defense, of course)

Other than, you know, him having done it. Or gotten within 5 points per game of doing it.

What? 5 points? That is a lot when you are comparing scorers. Thomas basically matched George's best scoring season last year ('15-'16). I love George and would gladly do a straight up trade for him with IT, but Thomas is the overall better scorer.

I actually think PG13 is the better scorer.  George and Thomas can both score 20+, but George can do it on less shots, which makes him the better scorer.  Also, PG13 is a plus defender, and IT is a double minus defender.

Have you even looked at their stats?

Even though George had by far his highest FG% of his career this year, Thomas still had a higher percentage (barely). In their careers, Thomas also has the better FG% - All this while standing over a full foot shorter than George. Bigger players generally shoot a higher %, but not in this case.

As for defense - yeah, obviously, but that isn't what we were talking about. I already said I would trade IT for George, but that doesn't mean he is the better overall scorer.

Btw, I really hope IT isn't reading this thread. Even as Cs fans, people seem really unaware of his elite ability. He wasn't 2nd All-NBA by accident.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Serious question for the vocal pro-trade IT camp:  Do you believe Ainge will make the right decision on this matter?

Any one?  I'm happy to eat crow when I'm wrong.  If we agree that Ainge knows far better than we do, then both sides should be open to a crow filet as the situation shakes out.

Btw, I really hope IT isn't reading this thread. Even as Cs fans, people seem really unaware of his elite ability. He wasn't 2nd All-NBA by accident.

TP.  It's genuinely surprising how little respect he has received here. 

[Ilikesports17]

I think there is a massive misunderstanding about IT. He is NOT the 3rd best scorer in the league, he was the 3rd leading scorer in a season.

He is clutch, he is explosive, he easily changes pace, but it is not a given that PG, for example, could not match his production (with better rebounding and defense, of course)

Wait, if Paul George could match ITs production, then why didnt he.

Thomas was more efficient than George(by a lot) on a much greater volume than George.

Thomas is a top 5 scorer in the NBA. No doubt. I think KD is better. I think Harden and Curry might also be. Kyrie is a better ISO scorer, but I think Thomas is the better all around scorer. Lebron could also probably score better than Thomas. I think hes better than Westbrook but I understand the argument against it.

I dont think any one else can really lay a legit claim that they are a better scorer than Thomas.

Isaiah is a top 5 regular season scorer.

If you hold his injuries against him.

Was he injured the previous two postseasons, too? No. His seriously re-injured the hip in Game 6 vs WAS, right? Before that he was able to go off for 53, so he wasn't THAT injured for most of this postseason.

Yeah, he reinjured the hip in game 6 and had to play through the death of his sister and had teams gameplanning to stop him(George also had this). Thomas was still able to put up 23 and 8 and although George scored more than him. George was still less efficient (1.27 points per shot vs. 1.33 for Thomas)

Thomas is a better scorer than George. Paul George's Pacers didnt even make the playoffs till like the last week of the season so if George was coasting through the regular season, then he is an idiot.

[Ilikesports17]

Serious question for the vocal pro-trade IT camp:  Do you believe Ainge will make the right decision on this matter?

Any one?  I'm happy to eat crow when I'm wrong.  If we agree that Ainge knows far better than we do, then both sides should be open to a crow filet as the situation shakes out.

Btw, I really hope IT isn't reading this thread. Even as Cs fans, people seem really unaware of his elite ability. He wasn't 2nd All-NBA by accident.

TP.  It's genuinely surprising how little respect he has received here.

Since no one in the trade IT camp is open to answering this question, Ill say that I trust Danny to make the right call.

Im sure if a team offers a huge package, Ainge will pull the trigger. I just dont see that package being offered.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Serious question for the vocal pro-trade IT camp:  Do you believe Ainge will make the right decision on this matter?

Any one?  I'm happy to eat crow when I'm wrong.  If we agree that Ainge knows far better than we do, then both sides should be open to a crow filet as the situation shakes out.

Btw, I really hope IT isn't reading this thread. Even as Cs fans, people seem really unaware of his elite ability. He wasn't 2nd All-NBA by accident.

TP.  It's genuinely surprising how little respect he has received here.

Since no one in the trade IT camp is open to answering this question, Ill say that I trust Danny to make the right call.

Im sure if a team offers a huge package, Ainge will pull the trigger. I just dont see that package being offered.

Thanks for chiming in.  I'm with you on both accounts. 

[OldSchoolDude]

The other team that is prime for an IT4 trade are the Mavericks.
Gotta give Dirk some good remaining years.

IT4 for that 7th pick sounds pretty nifty.

The Mavs have the 9th pick.

The 7th pick belongs to the Wolves. According to rumors, Thibs wants to swap Rubio with Courtney Lee. If that's the case, I guess IT would be a good fit for them next to Lee.

I stand corrected.
IT4 for the 9th pick still sounds pretty nifty

In a heart beat!
With one caveat, until they actually play with him, free agents will be hesitant to sign with the Celtics without IT being on the roster. They don't realize they'll have to work their tails off on the defensive end to get the team defense to actually properly function with him on the floor.

All to get the opportunity to watch him mostly just score on the other end.

Do we really even know that?  IT talks a lot of recruiting talk but when Horford signed he never gave the impression that he was coming to play with IT.   Maybe the truth is that we missed out on Durant because he didn't want to play with IT.  Maybe Durant didn't think there were enough shots to go around with IT, maybe not but we really don't know.   

We do know that it was reported that Danny was willing to dump IT in last years draft to get an extra pick.  That leads me to doubt that Danny was talking IT up to Horford and/or Durant.   More likely he talked up the system, CBS, and the cap room to add another FA.  I wouldn't be surprised if he talked up what the team could do with the Brooklyn picks (trade/draft) more than IT.   The long term future of the Celtics is strong and could just as easily not include IT as it could.

Lets give the FAs some credit for understanding the business of the NBA, that functions on a different level than what fans think should happen.   Horford signed a 4 year deal knowing that IT had two years left.  IT had a really good 2016 season but not as good as he did in 2017, so this 2nd team all NBA IT that everyone is gushing over wasn't the IT of last summer.   And even with that great play this year, a FA knows IT is in the last year of his deal and hurt on top of that, plus when July 1st roles around we'll have just used the #1 over all pick on a point guard.   Is a FA going to look at the celtics and say I'm going to sign a 4 year deal because I somehow know that IT is going to recovery fully and then the celtics are going to give him that 5 year Max, so I'll play out my contract alongside IT like I want to?  I really don't think so.  As fans some of you want to max IT for 5 years and some like myself don't want to do that.  Some want  to imagine some alternate reality were we offer him something less than max and he stays instead of taking a max from someone else.  I think a free agent can reasonably believe that Stevens will coach the length of the contract he signs, that Horford will play with him for 3 of the 4 year contract (there were articles that suggested the Hayward may want to do a three year max then hope to resign a super max), and that Fultz will be with him for the duration of the contract. Everything else looks to be in flux, with Brown being the next player most likely to be on the team the length of the FAs contract.

[Ilikesports17]

I think there is a massive misunderstanding about IT. He is NOT the 3rd best scorer in the league, he was the 3rd leading scorer in a season.

He is clutch, he is explosive, he easily changes pace, but it is not a given that PG, for example, could not match his production (with better rebounding and defense, of course)

Other than, you know, him having done it. Or gotten within 5 points per game of doing it.

What? 5 points? That is a lot when you are comparing scorers. Thomas basically matched George's best scoring season last year ('15-'16). I love George and would gladly do a straight up trade for him with IT, but Thomas is the overall better scorer.

I actually think PG13 is the better scorer.  George and Thomas can both score 20+, but George can do it on less shots, which makes him the better scorer.  Also, PG13 is a plus defender, and IT is a double minus defender.

Thomas is SUBSTANTIALLY more efficient. This season George scored 23.7 points on 18 shots a game. He also had 2.9 turnovers and 3.3 assists per game.

Thomas scored 28.9 points on 19.4 shots per game. He had 2.8 turnovers and 5.9 assists per game.

Per 20 points:
George: 15.2 shots, 2.4 turnovers
Thomas: 14.4 shots, 1.9 turnovers

[OldSchoolDude]

Serious question for the vocal pro-trade IT camp:  Do you believe Ainge will make the right decision on this matter?

Any one?  I'm happy to eat crow when I'm wrong.  If we agree that Ainge knows far better than we do, then both sides should be open to a crow filet as the situation shakes out.

Btw, I really hope IT isn't reading this thread. Even as Cs fans, people seem really unaware of his elite ability. He wasn't 2nd All-NBA by accident.

TP.  It's genuinely surprising how little respect he has received here.

Since no one in the trade IT camp is open to answering this question, Ill say that I trust Danny to make the right call.

Im sure if a team offers a huge package, Ainge will pull the trigger. I just dont see that package being offered.

I am in the trade IT camp, but I also don't see a quality deal being offered.  I predict IT walks a FA.  Sure we'll offer him a reasonable deal that factors in his age an chance that he loses a step before the contract runs its course.   Maybe we even offer him a 3 year max so that there is money to pay Brown when his rookie deal is up.  But even if we do that a team that lacks the promising young talent we do at the guard position will gladly give him that 4th year.  Also, by not offering him a 5 year max it really is a slap in the face to all he's done.  Now if Fultz pulls a Dunn and shows he's a bust waiting to happen (which I highly doubt) then I can see IT staying on the team, but really only if Fultz doesn't look for real.

I am fully willing to admit when I am wrong:
I wanted the celtics to draft Dragan Bender, I was wrong.
See 

[Ilikesports17]

The other team that is prime for an IT4 trade are the Mavericks.
Gotta give Dirk some good remaining years.

IT4 for that 7th pick sounds pretty nifty.

The Mavs have the 9th pick.

The 7th pick belongs to the Wolves. According to rumors, Thibs wants to swap Rubio with Courtney Lee. If that's the case, I guess IT would be a good fit for them next to Lee.

I stand corrected.
IT4 for the 9th pick still sounds pretty nifty

In a heart beat!
With one caveat, until they actually play with him, free agents will be hesitant to sign with the Celtics without IT being on the roster. They don't realize they'll have to work their tails off on the defensive end to get the team defense to actually properly function with him on the floor.

All to get the opportunity to watch him mostly just score on the other end.

Do we really even know that?  IT talks a lot of recruiting talk but when Horford signed he never gave the impression that he was coming to play with IT.   Maybe the truth is that we missed out on Durant because he didn't want to play with IT.  Maybe Durant didn't think there were enough shots to go around with IT, maybe not but we really don't know.   

We do know that it was reported that Danny was willing to dump IT in last years draft to get an extra pick.  That leads me to doubt that Danny was talking IT up to Horford and/or Durant.   More likely he talked up the system, CBS, and the cap room to add another FA.  I wouldn't be surprised if he talked up what the team could do with the Brooklyn picks (trade/draft) more than IT.   The long term future of the Celtics is strong and could just as easily not include IT as it could.

Lets give the FAs some credit for understanding the business of the NBA, that functions on a different level than what fans think should happen.   Horford signed a 4 year deal knowing that IT had two years left.  IT had a really good 2016 season but not as good as he did in 2017, so this 2nd team all NBA IT that everyone is gushing over wasn't the IT of last summer.   And even with that great play this year, a FA knows IT is in the last year of his deal and hurt on top of that, plus when July 1st roles around we'll have just used the #1 over all pick on a point guard.   Is a FA going to look at the celtics and say I'm going to sign a 4 year deal because I somehow know that IT is going to recovery fully and then the celtics are going to give him that 5 year Max, so I'll play out my contract alongside IT like I want to?  I really don't think so.  As fans some of you want to max IT for 5 years and some like myself don't want to do that.  Some want  to imagine some alternate reality were we offer him something less than max and he stays instead of taking a max from someone else.  I think a free agent can reasonably believe that Stevens will coach the length of the contract he signs, that Horford will play with him for 3 of the 4 year contract (there were articles that suggested the Hayward may want to do a three year max then hope to resign a super max), and that Fultz will be with him for the duration of the contract. Everything else looks to be in flux, with Brown being the next player most likely to be on the team the length of the FAs contract.

Yeah, Durant was probably really worried about getting his shots with Thomas but instead chose to go play with Steph Curry who had spent the last season taking 3.3 more shots per game than Thomas and whose second option was Klay Thompson.

Durant met with the 73 win Warriors, 67 win Spurs, 55 win Thunder, 53 win clippers, 48 win Celtics and 48 win Heat.

He wanted to go to a good team. Not rocket science. Free agents don't sign up to play with rookies. James signed with the Cavaliers and demanded they trade the most hyped rookie since maybe KD.

Aldridge to the Spurs.

No one signs up to play with rookies.

You take Isaiah Thomas away from the Celtics and we are no longer an attractive destination because if you take IT away from the Celtics we are not a 50 win team (not even close imo) and thats the only reason we get a meeting with a guy like KD.

[nickagneta]

I think there is a massive misunderstanding about IT. He is NOT the 3rd best scorer in the league, he was the 3rd leading scorer in a season.

He is clutch, he is explosive, he easily changes pace, but it is not a given that PG, for example, could not match his production (with better rebounding and defense, of course)

Other than, you know, him having done it. Or gotten within 5 points per game of doing it.

What? 5 points? That is a lot when you are comparing scorers. Thomas basically matched George's best scoring season last year ('15-'16). I love George and would gladly do a straight up trade for him with IT, but Thomas is the overall better scorer.

I actually think PG13 is the better scorer.  George and Thomas can both score 20+, but George can do it on less shots, which makes him the better scorer.  Also, PG13 is a plus defender, and IT is a double minus defender.

First, when debating who is a better scorer what in the world does a player's ability to play defense matter.

Second, your claim that George scores more on less shots simply isn't true. Last year, IT had a higher FG%, higher eFG% and higher TS%. that means IT was the more efficient scorer meaning if they both took the same amount of shots, IT would score more.

[mmmmm]

I think there is a massive misunderstanding about IT. He is NOT the 3rd best scorer in the league, he was the 3rd leading scorer in a season.

He is clutch, he is explosive, he easily changes pace, but it is not a given that PG, for example, could not match his production (with better rebounding and defense, of course)

Wait, if Paul George could match ITs production, then why didnt he.

Thomas was more efficient than George(by a lot) on a much greater volume than George.

Thomas is a top 5 scorer in the NBA. No doubt. I think KD is better. I think Harden and Curry might also be. Kyrie is a better ISO scorer, but I think Thomas is the better all around scorer. Lebron could also probably score better than Thomas. I think hes better than Westbrook but I understand the argument against it.

I dont think any one else can really lay a legit claim that they are a better scorer than Thomas.

Isaiah is a top 5 regular season scorer.

Thomas scored the 5th most total points in the 2017 NBA playoffs going into tonight.  This despite missing more than half of the ECF.

Durant will probably pass him in the next game or two, though. 

Strong chance IT hangs on for sixth place when the Finals are done.