What if Fultz just became an excellent defender that can't shoot?

[RockinRyA]

I think it's possible that when I say "bust" some of you hear something like "worst player that ever lived".

I think of it more like "Not what I signed up for"

This is the top pick. I'm signing up for the best player in the draft and not less.

With Smart I didn't sign up for a defensive specialist that tries hard and flashes from time to time.

If that makes me some sort of fair weather fan or hater then so be it. My feelings aren't hurt.

That's on you. Dont pass your stupidity on to others.

[Eja117]

At what point do we get to declare players busts? Or do we just sorta have to love them unconditionally or something?

I get people saying the Smart hate is bad or this or that.

But the unconditional homeristic love is sorta bizarre too.

I say this is New England. Do your job. If you don't you're a bust. So it's legit to talk about.

Bust is used way too much and expectations are often too lofty.  Smart is a solid NBA role player and that isn't a bust.  Smart is basically who I expected him to be except he's better defensively.  So he's actually exceeded my expectations. 

As for Fultz, anyone expecting him to be a franchise player is likely to be disappointed.  I think he's got a reasonably good chance to be a star around the Irving level.  If he tops out as being a good starter but not a star, that would make the pick a disappointment but not a bust.

To me he's only a bust if he ends up being the 2nd best player in the draft.

If Fultz becomes Hakeem and Tatum becomes MJ.....then Fultz is a bust. A pretty good one, but still a bust.

People have to remember Ainge is supposedly the guy who woulda drafted Durant over Oden when nobody else would.  So Ainge has to get the best player out of this draft.

That's how the #1 pick works

This is the ultimate flaw in your thinking/logic concerning the draft.

based on this, every single pick would be properly evaluated pre-draft such that every player picked would have a better career than everyone picked after them, not to mention everyone that goes undrafted. 

sure, that happens every draft and is just so reasonable an expectation   

just for context, let's take the 2011 draft when IT was drafted.  Based on IT's play since joining the C's, it's reasonable to state he's once of the best players of that draft class  as number 60 in that draft, by your logic, the 59 players taken ahead of him should be even better.  do you really believe that should hold true?
others in that draft: Kyrie, Kawhi, Kanter, Tristan Thompson, Kemba, Klay, the Morris twins, Vucevic, Shumpert, Tobias Harris, Faried, Cory Joseph, Jimmy Butler, Chandler Parsons, Mitotic, Brandon Knight, Bogdanovic, Shelvin Mack, Jon Leuer, Lavoy Allen, Biyombo, Norris Cole --> all players who are either still in the league or had some run in the league for a few years.  some of these players are all-stars.  does the fact IT is who he is and taken at 60 mean these guys are all busts?  I don't think so and I don't think you could make an argument that they are.

sure, some other players in the draft were busts.  happens every draft.  some have more skills than others selected ahead of them but it doesn't make those other players busts.  your expectations are not realistic.

No. You're right. It's not reasonable to expect a draft with no busts. I totally agree with you there. I definitely expect there to be busts in every draft

[Eja117]

I think it's possible that when I say "bust" some of you hear something like "worst player that ever lived".

I think of it more like "Not what I signed up for"

This is the top pick. I'm signing up for the best player in the draft and not less.

With Smart I didn't sign up for a defensive specialist that tries hard and flashes from time to time.

If that makes me some sort of fair weather fan or hater then so be it. My feelings aren't hurt.

That's on you. Dont pass your stupidity on to others.

Ok, but then you gotta not pass your low expectations onto others.

[Ilikesports17]

So this whole dumb discussion has only happened because of your definition of the word bust.

If you'd replaced the word "bust" with "player who hasn't reached the expectations" this thread wouldn't have caught any traction, but you knew that if you threw the word "bust" around, you'd get a bunch of people p---ed off.

Solid troll job.

I'm glad you have "unapologetically high expectations"

[kozlodoev]

We just landed the #1 pick in the draft yesterday, and are about to kick off the ECF today... and that's what we're talking about? Heh.

[Ilikesports17]

I think it's possible that when I say "bust" some of you hear something like "worst player that ever lived".

I think of it more like "Not what I signed up for"

This is the top pick. I'm signing up for the best player in the draft and not less.

With Smart I didn't sign up for a defensive specialist that tries hard and flashes from time to time.

If that makes me some sort of fair weather fan or hater then so be it. My feelings aren't hurt.

That's on you. Dont pass your stupidity on to others.

Ok, but then you gotta not pass your low expectations onto others.

The word "bust" has nothing to do with expectations. If you'd replaced the word with your definition of it no one would really have a problem.

[Granath]

I think it's possible that when I say "bust" some of you hear something like "worst player that ever lived".

I think of it more like "Not what I signed up for"

This is the top pick. I'm signing up for the best player in the draft and not less.

With Smart I didn't sign up for a defensive specialist that tries hard and flashes from time to time.

If that makes me some sort of fair weather fan or hater then so be it. My feelings aren't hurt.

No, it makes you immature and illogical. You don't judge a bust by the performance of others.

If you think Hakeem Olajuwon is a bust because Michael Jordan was drafted after him then you have some growing up to do.

Besides the fact there are some mitigating issues there, like the fact that Houston loves Hakeem because of his college days,  there is just no way on Earth any good GM in his right mind who picked Hakeem over Jordan is like "Oh man! I made such a great pick when I picked Hakeem!"  No. Way.

Maybe you think the Jets are real proud of themselves for taking Chad Pennington over Tom Brady. I mean Pennington was pretty good.

Or maybe Sam Bowie's not a bust because he made the all rookie team.

I get that people are saying I'm being unrealistic or spoiled or overly negative. I get people saying I have an extreme interpretation of bust. But let's not be extreme the other way where all a guy has to do is show up and try hard and make some plays regardless of who was drafted after them in order to not be a bust.

No, now you're being a fool and using stupidity to drive your point home.

I just used your own definition against you and now you want to claim "mitigating circumstances". No, there weren't. Hakeem was considered the #1 pick and it wasn't even a debate back then. There's a reason he was known as "the Dream" and he fulfilled every expectation that could be laid at his feet. The fact that Jordan was drafted two picks later has absolutely NO BEARING on his performance.

You don't have an "extreme interpretation" of a bust. You simply don't know what the word means and you're trying to apply meaning to it that the word does not imply. You might as well call a square something with three sides.

[LilRip]

At what point do we get to declare players busts? Or do we just sorta have to love them unconditionally or something?

I get people saying the Smart hate is bad or this or that.

But the unconditional homeristic love is sorta bizarre too.

I say this is New England. Do your job. If you don't you're a bust. So it's legit to talk about.

Bust is used way too much and expectations are often too lofty.  Smart is a solid NBA role player and that isn't a bust.  Smart is basically who I expected him to be except he's better defensively.  So he's actually exceeded my expectations. 

As for Fultz, anyone expecting him to be a franchise player is likely to be disappointed.  I think he's got a reasonably good chance to be a star around the Irving level.  If he tops out as being a good starter but not a star, that would make the pick a disappointment but not a bust.

To me he's only a bust if he ends up being the 2nd best player in the draft.

If Fultz becomes Hakeem and Tatum becomes MJ.....then Fultz is a bust. A pretty good one, but still a bust.

People have to remember Ainge is supposedly the guy who woulda drafted Durant over Oden when nobody else would.  So Ainge has to get the best player out of this draft.

That's how the #1 pick works

So you'd rather have ended up with Kenyon Martin than Hakeem Olajuwon? Since yknow, technically Hakeem was a bust and Kenyon Martin wasn't.

Different drafts

And yet, one player was the best player in his draft class and deservedly the #1 pick. The other player was picked #1, had Jordan in his draft class, and ended up, by your definition, being a bust.

Unless of course, you're saying it's better to draft a bust than a deserving #1 pick??

Depending on the draft class? Definitely. You can definitely be like "We screwed up that draft" while also being thankful it wasn't a horrible draft.

So then, from your answers, it seems the definition of a bust is then hinged pretty much entirely on draft class and draft position without any regard to actual output, even if it yields a HoF career? Because honestly, you're the first person I've ever come across to consider Hakeem Olajuwon as a bust when there have been a ton of worse #1 picks.

And you know what's really weird? Marcus Smart is allegedly a bust when guys drafted after him like Randle or Lavine aren't clear cut better. And yet you burden him with the whole "if he's drafted #6, then I expect so on and so forth" when your definition of Hakeem as a bust has nothing to do with his overall output vs say, guys drafted 1st overall, and everything to do with a guy drafted after him.

[Eja117]

So this whole dumb discussion has only happened because of your definition of the word bust.

If you'd replaced the word "bust" with "player who hasn't reached the expectations" this thread wouldn't have caught any traction, but you knew that if you threw the word "bust" around, you'd get a bunch of people p---ed off.

Solid troll job.

I'm glad you have "unapologetically high expectations"

I'm not allowed to have my own definition of "bust" now?  You just can't handle the word or something because....idk why. Because you're just emotionally attached to Smart and not having him called a bust? 

So by your definition of troll a troll is basically anyone that says anything that bothers people.

So essentially my posts have to keep everyone happy all the time or I'm a troll.....and....that's a bad thing?

I'm Irish-American. I'm not gonna think happy thoughts all day.

[slamtheking]

I think it's possible that when I say "bust" some of you hear something like "worst player that ever lived".

I think of it more like "Not what I signed up for"

This is the top pick. I'm signing up for the best player in the draft and not less.

With Smart I didn't sign up for a defensive specialist that tries hard and flashes from time to time.

If that makes me some sort of fair weather fan or hater then so be it. My feelings aren't hurt.

No, it makes you immature and illogical. You don't judge a bust by the performance of others.

If you think Hakeem Olajuwon is a bust because Michael Jordan was drafted after him then you have some growing up to do.

Besides the fact there are some mitigating issues there, like the fact that Houston loves Hakeem because of his college days,  there is just no way on Earth any good GM in his right mind who picked Hakeem over Jordan is like "Oh man! I made such a great pick when I picked Hakeem!"  No. Way.

Maybe you think the Jets are real proud of themselves for taking Chad Pennington over Tom Brady. I mean Pennington was pretty good.

Or maybe Sam Bowie's not a bust because he made the all rookie team.

I get that people are saying I'm being unrealistic or spoiled or overly negative. I get people saying I have an extreme interpretation of bust. But let's not be extreme the other way where all a guy has to do is show up and try hard and make some plays regardless of who was drafted after them in order to not be a bust.

This statement just begs the question --> how old are you?  I'm old enough to have watched college and pro ball back then and let me assure you, Hakeem was the prize of that draft and it wasn't even close.  There was a top 6 tier that year: Olajuwon (the clear top pick), Sam Bowie, Jordan, Barkley, Mel Turpin and Sam Perkins.
After Hakeem, it was a 5-player delicatessen where the team could take the player that best suited their needs -- hence Bowie picked by Portland.  With Drexler already on the team it made some sense.  The only downside on that pick was concerns over Bowie's constant health problems.  To be fair, when he was healthy enough to play, he looked like an all-star caliber talent.

no one could have predicted Jordan would turn out to be as good as he was.  no one.  a great SG was expected but not someone considered in the top 5 players of all time (I'm not one who thinks he's GOAT - I personally have him 5th but that's just me).  saying Hakeem's a bust -- regardless of winning 2 titles and getting to the finals one other time -- is ridiculous.

[Eja117]

I think it's possible that when I say "bust" some of you hear something like "worst player that ever lived".

I think of it more like "Not what I signed up for"

This is the top pick. I'm signing up for the best player in the draft and not less.

With Smart I didn't sign up for a defensive specialist that tries hard and flashes from time to time.

If that makes me some sort of fair weather fan or hater then so be it. My feelings aren't hurt.

That's on you. Dont pass your stupidity on to others.

Ok, but then you gotta not pass your low expectations onto others.

The word "bust" has nothing to do with expectations. If you'd replaced the word with your definition of it no one would really have a problem.

I will agree to disagree that the word bust has nothing to do with expectations. And I won't even call people names in the process.

[Eja117]

I think it's possible that when I say "bust" some of you hear something like "worst player that ever lived".

I think of it more like "Not what I signed up for"

This is the top pick. I'm signing up for the best player in the draft and not less.

With Smart I didn't sign up for a defensive specialist that tries hard and flashes from time to time.

If that makes me some sort of fair weather fan or hater then so be it. My feelings aren't hurt.

No, it makes you immature and illogical. You don't judge a bust by the performance of others.

If you think Hakeem Olajuwon is a bust because Michael Jordan was drafted after him then you have some growing up to do.

Besides the fact there are some mitigating issues there, like the fact that Houston loves Hakeem because of his college days,  there is just no way on Earth any good GM in his right mind who picked Hakeem over Jordan is like "Oh man! I made such a great pick when I picked Hakeem!"  No. Way.

Maybe you think the Jets are real proud of themselves for taking Chad Pennington over Tom Brady. I mean Pennington was pretty good.

Or maybe Sam Bowie's not a bust because he made the all rookie team.

I get that people are saying I'm being unrealistic or spoiled or overly negative. I get people saying I have an extreme interpretation of bust. But let's not be extreme the other way where all a guy has to do is show up and try hard and make some plays regardless of who was drafted after them in order to not be a bust.

This statement just begs the question --> how old are you?  I'm old enough to have watched college and pro ball back then and let me assure you, Hakeem was the prize of that draft and it wasn't even close.  There was a top 6 tier that year: Olajuwon (the clear top pick), Sam Bowie, Jordan, Barkley, Mel Turpin and Sam Perkins.
After Hakeem, it was a 5-player delicatessen where the team could take the player that best suited their needs -- hence Bowie picked by Portland.  With Drexler already on the team it made some sense.  The only downside on that pick was concerns over Bowie's constant health problems.  To be fair, when he was healthy enough to play, he looked like an all-star caliber talent.

no one could have predicted Jordan would turn out to be as good as he was.  no one.  a great SG was expected but not someone considered in the top 5 players of all time (I'm not one who thinks he's GOAT - I personally have him 5th but that's just me).  saying Hakeem's a bust -- regardless of winning 2 titles and getting to the finals one other time -- is ridiculous.

He had been college player of the year, a 2 time All American and had hit the winning shot as a freshman.  The idea that is was just totally unpredictable that he could or would be better than Hakeem strikes me as odd