Cap experts- any idea here? (Hayward+Butler)

[Roy H.]

Pretty sure Danny can make a draft day deal--and just delay the deal a month or so. Like Minny/Clev did with Wiggins....Renounce a couple guys-Sign Hayward, then make the trade official. It's okay to go over the cap then. No-?

If a team is under the cap, a trade can't be made if it would take the team more than 100K over the cap.  You'd have to salary match so it didn't.

Salaries do need to "match" in that scenario (generally, within 125 - 150%), but a team is allowed to go over the cap, regardless of where they started.

[TheSundanceKid]

If you want to add Butler and Hayward to the team then you must trade out an equal amount of 2017-18 salary in a Butler trade as you receive.

Your proposition won't work because in order to sign Hayward this summer, Zeller is already gone.

A trade would need to look something like this:

Butler for Bradley, Crowder, Smart at a minimum. Then you can sign Hayward to the max. Basically the only way you can do it is if you trade away 3 core pieces from this years team

That's not quite true. Salaries need to "match", but not exactly. Bradley + BRK #1 probably works, so long as the pick is signed 30 days before the trade.

I get where you are coming from but no. The trade would be made on draft night anyway which means you could use Zeller to make up the salary in your scenario, you don't have to sign the pick first.

Look at it this way. Take the current roster and adjust it to sign Hayward. That is the pool of players you have to trade for Butler. Furthermore, but yes depending on who is in your pool, you will have to match the salary incoming in order to maintain the cap space. Given that it will be a struggle to make enough cap space anyway, it is safe to assume it must be equal.

This is probably a better question to ask post draft lottery as we will have definition over the Brooklyn pick.

[nickagneta]

If you want to add Butler and Hayward to the team then you must trade out an equal amount of 2017-18 salary in a Butler trade as you receive.

Your proposition won't work because in order to sign Hayward this summer, Zeller is already gone.

A trade would need to look something like this:

Butler for Bradley, Crowder, Smart at a minimum. Then you can sign Hayward to the max. Basically the only way you can do it is if you trade away 3 core pieces from this years team

That's not quite true. Salaries need to "match", but not exactly. Bradley + BRK #1 probably works, so long as the pick is signed 30 days before the trade.

I get where you are coming from but no. The trade would be made on draft night anyway which means you could use Zeller to make up the salary in your scenario, you don't have to sign the pick first.

Look at it this way. Take the current roster and adjust it to sign Hayward. That is the pool of players you have to trade for Butler. Furthermore, but yes depending on who is in your pool, you will have to match the salary incoming in order to maintain the cap space. Given that it will be a struggle to make enough cap space anyway, it is safe to assume it must be equal.

This is probably a better question to ask post draft lottery as we will have definition over the Brooklyn pick.

The only way this works is to draft and sign whoever Chicago wants on draft night then sign them. Then renounce rights to Green, Amir, Young and KO and don't pick up the Zeller option. Then you have to stash Yabusele another year. This clears the cap space for Hayward.30 days after the pick is signed you trade either Crowder or Bradley plus the signed pick and maybe some future picks for Butler. Assuming we trade Bradley then you have

IT/Rozier/Jackson
Butler/Smart
Hayward/Brown/Nader
Crowder/some vet min or room exception signing
Horford/Zizic

Tha's really the only way this works

[TheSundanceKid]

If you want to add Butler and Hayward to the team then you must trade out an equal amount of 2017-18 salary in a Butler trade as you receive.

Your proposition won't work because in order to sign Hayward this summer, Zeller is already gone.

A trade would need to look something like this:

Butler for Bradley, Crowder, Smart at a minimum. Then you can sign Hayward to the max. Basically the only way you can do it is if you trade away 3 core pieces from this years team

That's not quite true. Salaries need to "match", but not exactly. Bradley + BRK #1 probably works, so long as the pick is signed 30 days before the trade.

I get where you are coming from but no. The trade would be made on draft night anyway which means you could use Zeller to make up the salary in your scenario, you don't have to sign the pick first.

Look at it this way. Take the current roster and adjust it to sign Hayward. That is the pool of players you have to trade for Butler. Furthermore, but yes depending on who is in your pool, you will have to match the salary incoming in order to maintain the cap space. Given that it will be a struggle to make enough cap space anyway, it is safe to assume it must be equal.

This is probably a better question to ask post draft lottery as we will have definition over the Brooklyn pick.

The only way this works is to draft and sign whoever Chicago wants on draft night then sign them. Then renounce rights to Green, Amir, Young and KO and don't pick up the Zeller option. Then you have to stash Yabusele another year. This clears the cap space for Hayward.30 days after the pick is signed you trade either Crowder or Bradley plus the signed pick and maybe some future picks for Butler. Assuming we trade Bradley then you have

IT/Rozier/Jackson
Butler/Smart
Hayward/Brown/Nader
Crowder/some vet min or room exception signing
Horford/Zizic

Tha's really the only way this works

That's just not true. Making the trade for Butler on draft night works. It's the entire reason Zeller has his contract structured in this way. What doesn't change is that you would still have to send out matching salary to maintain cap space.

If you do the trade on draft night then you have more flexibility when looking to bring Yab over or keeping Rozier or KO. Now I'm not a fan of this but here is how it could work:

Butler = $17,552,209

Bradley, Crowder, Zeller and Nets 17 = $8,269,663 + $6,286,408 + $8,000,000 = $22,556,071

More importantly for us that is $20,411,271 in 2017-18 salary (assuming 1st pick in the draft). So we would increase our cap space in the summer by $2,859,062. This would put us well into the range to sign a max FA (without the trade we would be roughly $1.8m short). This would mean we could keep Rozier, which would be a plus given who we trade away.

If you sign Hayward first then we have to move some of these guys out first. When we subsequently make the trade for Butler, we either have to hope the package is of less value (i.e. only one of Crowder/Bradley) or we have to accept an even thinner roster. From a roster perspective it makes more sense to make the trade first.

Edit: Stashing Yab doesn't free up the necessary cap space because it would incur a roster spot charge equivalent to the Min salary. Stashing him would only save $1m which isn't even enough to open up the cap space if we get the 4th overall pick. You have to go further than that.

[nickagneta]

If you want to add Butler and Hayward to the team then you must trade out an equal amount of 2017-18 salary in a Butler trade as you receive.

Your proposition won't work because in order to sign Hayward this summer, Zeller is already gone.

A trade would need to look something like this:

Butler for Bradley, Crowder, Smart at a minimum. Then you can sign Hayward to the max. Basically the only way you can do it is if you trade away 3 core pieces from this years team

That's not quite true. Salaries need to "match", but not exactly. Bradley + BRK #1 probably works, so long as the pick is signed 30 days before the trade.

I get where you are coming from but no. The trade would be made on draft night anyway which means you could use Zeller to make up the salary in your scenario, you don't have to sign the pick first.

Look at it this way. Take the current roster and adjust it to sign Hayward. That is the pool of players you have to trade for Butler. Furthermore, but yes depending on who is in your pool, you will have to match the salary incoming in order to maintain the cap space. Given that it will be a struggle to make enough cap space anyway, it is safe to assume it must be equal.

This is probably a better question to ask post draft lottery as we will have definition over the Brooklyn pick.

The only way this works is to draft and sign whoever Chicago wants on draft night then sign them. Then renounce rights to Green, Amir, Young and KO and don't pick up the Zeller option. Then you have to stash Yabusele another year. This clears the cap space for Hayward.30 days after the pick is signed you trade either Crowder or Bradley plus the signed pick and maybe some future picks for Butler. Assuming we trade Bradley then you have

IT/Rozier/Jackson
Butler/Smart
Hayward/Brown/Nader
Crowder/some vet min or room exception signing
Horford/Zizic

Tha's really the only way this works

That's just not true. Making the trade for Butler on draft night works. It's the entire reason Zeller has his contract structured in this way. What doesn't change is that you would still have to send out matching salary to maintain cap space.

If you do the trade on draft night then you have more flexibility when looking to bring Yab over or keeping Rozier or KO. Now I'm not a fan of this but here is how it could work:

Butler = $17,552,209

Bradley, Crowder, Zeller and Nets 17 = $8,269,663 + $6,286,408 + $8,000,000 = $22,556,071

More importantly for us that is $20,411,271 in 2017-18 salary (assuming 1st pick in the draft). So we would increase our cap space in the summer by $2,859,062. This would put us well into the range to sign a max FA (without the trade we would be roughly $1.8m short). This would mean we could keep Rozier, which would be a plus given who we trade away.

If you sign Hayward first then we have to move some of these guys out first. When we subsequently make the trade for Butler, we either have to hope the package is of less value (i.e. only one of Crowder/Bradley) or we have to accept an even thinner roster. From a roster perspective it makes more sense to make the trade first.

Edit: Stashing Yab doesn't free up the necessary cap space because it would incur a roster spot charge equivalent to the Min salary. Stashing him would only save $1m which isn't even enough to open up the cap space if we get the 4th overall pick. You have to go further than that.

You can not trade Zeller on draft night without first picking up his option for 2017-18. Once you do this you lose your cap room to sign Hayward. Sorry but you are mistaken on this. Once the Celtics play that last game, Zeller's contract ends unless the Celtics pick up his option. If you pick up the option you add his $8 million salary to 2017-18 hence ending any chance of having enough money to sign a max free agent.

[TheSundanceKid]

If you want to add Butler and Hayward to the team then you must trade out an equal amount of 2017-18 salary in a Butler trade as you receive.

Your proposition won't work because in order to sign Hayward this summer, Zeller is already gone.

A trade would need to look something like this:

Butler for Bradley, Crowder, Smart at a minimum. Then you can sign Hayward to the max. Basically the only way you can do it is if you trade away 3 core pieces from this years team

That's not quite true. Salaries need to "match", but not exactly. Bradley + BRK #1 probably works, so long as the pick is signed 30 days before the trade.

I get where you are coming from but no. The trade would be made on draft night anyway which means you could use Zeller to make up the salary in your scenario, you don't have to sign the pick first.

Look at it this way. Take the current roster and adjust it to sign Hayward. That is the pool of players you have to trade for Butler. Furthermore, but yes depending on who is in your pool, you will have to match the salary incoming in order to maintain the cap space. Given that it will be a struggle to make enough cap space anyway, it is safe to assume it must be equal.

This is probably a better question to ask post draft lottery as we will have definition over the Brooklyn pick.

The only way this works is to draft and sign whoever Chicago wants on draft night then sign them. Then renounce rights to Green, Amir, Young and KO and don't pick up the Zeller option. Then you have to stash Yabusele another year. This clears the cap space for Hayward.30 days after the pick is signed you trade either Crowder or Bradley plus the signed pick and maybe some future picks for Butler. Assuming we trade Bradley then you have

IT/Rozier/Jackson
Butler/Smart
Hayward/Brown/Nader
Crowder/some vet min or room exception signing
Horford/Zizic

Tha's really the only way this works

That's just not true. Making the trade for Butler on draft night works. It's the entire reason Zeller has his contract structured in this way. What doesn't change is that you would still have to send out matching salary to maintain cap space.

If you do the trade on draft night then you have more flexibility when looking to bring Yab over or keeping Rozier or KO. Now I'm not a fan of this but here is how it could work:

Butler = $17,552,209

Bradley, Crowder, Zeller and Nets 17 = $8,269,663 + $6,286,408 + $8,000,000 = $22,556,071

More importantly for us that is $20,411,271 in 2017-18 salary (assuming 1st pick in the draft). So we would increase our cap space in the summer by $2,859,062. This would put us well into the range to sign a max FA (without the trade we would be roughly $1.8m short). This would mean we could keep Rozier, which would be a plus given who we trade away.

If you sign Hayward first then we have to move some of these guys out first. When we subsequently make the trade for Butler, we either have to hope the package is of less value (i.e. only one of Crowder/Bradley) or we have to accept an even thinner roster. From a roster perspective it makes more sense to make the trade first.

Edit: Stashing Yab doesn't free up the necessary cap space because it would incur a roster spot charge equivalent to the Min salary. Stashing him would only save $1m which isn't even enough to open up the cap space if we get the 4th overall pick. You have to go further than that.

You can not trade Zeller on draft night without first picking up his option for 2017-18. Once you do this you lose your cap room to sign Hayward. Sorry but you are mistaken on this. Once the Celtics play that last game, Zeller's contract ends unless the Celtics pick up his option. If you pick up the option you add his $8 million salary to 2017-18 hence ending any chance of having enough money to sign a max free agent.

It's not an option to be picked up, it is a non-guaranteed contract. It only becomes guaranteed in the summer, just like Amir and JJ last year. Therefore there are not the restrictions on it that you would find on an option. It has often been misrepresented as an option to be picked up because some writers don't seem to understand the difference. However I assure you it is not an option, it is a non guaranteed contract of the same vein as Mickey and Jackson. It absolutely can be traded on draft night.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/boston-celtics-team-salary/

On this link you will see that Zeller's 2017-18 contract figure is in red, signifying non-guaranteed. This can be compared to the purple team option of other players such as Jaylen Brown in 2018-19. We don't have any player options (light blue) but you can see them listed on other teams pages.

Edit: In fact that page lists the date that Zeller becomes guaranteed, 2nd July 2017.

[nickagneta]

If you want to add Butler and Hayward to the team then you must trade out an equal amount of 2017-18 salary in a Butler trade as you receive.

Your proposition won't work because in order to sign Hayward this summer, Zeller is already gone.

A trade would need to look something like this:

Butler for Bradley, Crowder, Smart at a minimum. Then you can sign Hayward to the max. Basically the only way you can do it is if you trade away 3 core pieces from this years team

That's not quite true. Salaries need to "match", but not exactly. Bradley + BRK #1 probably works, so long as the pick is signed 30 days before the trade.

I get where you are coming from but no. The trade would be made on draft night anyway which means you could use Zeller to make up the salary in your scenario, you don't have to sign the pick first.

Look at it this way. Take the current roster and adjust it to sign Hayward. That is the pool of players you have to trade for Butler. Furthermore, but yes depending on who is in your pool, you will have to match the salary incoming in order to maintain the cap space. Given that it will be a struggle to make enough cap space anyway, it is safe to assume it must be equal.

This is probably a better question to ask post draft lottery as we will have definition over the Brooklyn pick.

The only way this works is to draft and sign whoever Chicago wants on draft night then sign them. Then renounce rights to Green, Amir, Young and KO and don't pick up the Zeller option. Then you have to stash Yabusele another year. This clears the cap space for Hayward.30 days after the pick is signed you trade either Crowder or Bradley plus the signed pick and maybe some future picks for Butler. Assuming we trade Bradley then you have

IT/Rozier/Jackson
Butler/Smart
Hayward/Brown/Nader
Crowder/some vet min or room exception signing
Horford/Zizic

Tha's really the only way this works

That's just not true. Making the trade for Butler on draft night works. It's the entire reason Zeller has his contract structured in this way. What doesn't change is that you would still have to send out matching salary to maintain cap space.

If you do the trade on draft night then you have more flexibility when looking to bring Yab over or keeping Rozier or KO. Now I'm not a fan of this but here is how it could work:

Butler = $17,552,209

Bradley, Crowder, Zeller and Nets 17 = $8,269,663 + $6,286,408 + $8,000,000 = $22,556,071

More importantly for us that is $20,411,271 in 2017-18 salary (assuming 1st pick in the draft). So we would increase our cap space in the summer by $2,859,062. This would put us well into the range to sign a max FA (without the trade we would be roughly $1.8m short). This would mean we could keep Rozier, which would be a plus given who we trade away.

If you sign Hayward first then we have to move some of these guys out first. When we subsequently make the trade for Butler, we either have to hope the package is of less value (i.e. only one of Crowder/Bradley) or we have to accept an even thinner roster. From a roster perspective it makes more sense to make the trade first.

Edit: Stashing Yab doesn't free up the necessary cap space because it would incur a roster spot charge equivalent to the Min salary. Stashing him would only save $1m which isn't even enough to open up the cap space if we get the 4th overall pick. You have to go further than that.

You can not trade Zeller on draft night without first picking up his option for 2017-18. Once you do this you lose your cap room to sign Hayward. Sorry but you are mistaken on this. Once the Celtics play that last game, Zeller's contract ends unless the Celtics pick up his option. If you pick up the option you add his $8 million salary to 2017-18 hence ending any chance of having enough money to sign a max free agent.

It's not an option to be picked up, it is a non-guaranteed contract. It only becomes guaranteed in the summer, just like Amir and JJ last year. Therefore there are not the restrictions on it that you would find on an option. It has often been misrepresented as an option to be picked up because some writers don't seem to understand the difference. However I assure you it is not an option, it is a non guaranteed contract of the same vein as Mickey and Jackson. It absolutely can be traded on draft night.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/boston-celtics-team-salary/

On this link you will see that Zeller's 2017-18 contract figure is in red, signifying non-guaranteed. This can be compared to the purple team option of other players such as Jaylen Brown in 2018-19. We don't have any player options (light blue) but you can see them listed on other teams pages.

Edit: In fact that page lists the date that Zeller becomes guaranteed, 2nd July 2017.

I am telling you, once the Celtics play their last game, Zeller's 2016-17 portion of his contract is over. Thats why draft day trades don't get finalized until the next season starts. The last time the Celtics had the opportunity to trade Zeller's 2016-17 was at the deadline. In order to trade him draft day you must guarantee his contract for 2017-18.

[TheSundanceKid]

If you want to add Butler and Hayward to the team then you must trade out an equal amount of 2017-18 salary in a Butler trade as you receive.

Your proposition won't work because in order to sign Hayward this summer, Zeller is already gone.

A trade would need to look something like this:

Butler for Bradley, Crowder, Smart at a minimum. Then you can sign Hayward to the max. Basically the only way you can do it is if you trade away 3 core pieces from this years team

That's not quite true. Salaries need to "match", but not exactly. Bradley + BRK #1 probably works, so long as the pick is signed 30 days before the trade.

I get where you are coming from but no. The trade would be made on draft night anyway which means you could use Zeller to make up the salary in your scenario, you don't have to sign the pick first.

Look at it this way. Take the current roster and adjust it to sign Hayward. That is the pool of players you have to trade for Butler. Furthermore, but yes depending on who is in your pool, you will have to match the salary incoming in order to maintain the cap space. Given that it will be a struggle to make enough cap space anyway, it is safe to assume it must be equal.

This is probably a better question to ask post draft lottery as we will have definition over the Brooklyn pick.

The only way this works is to draft and sign whoever Chicago wants on draft night then sign them. Then renounce rights to Green, Amir, Young and KO and don't pick up the Zeller option. Then you have to stash Yabusele another year. This clears the cap space for Hayward.30 days after the pick is signed you trade either Crowder or Bradley plus the signed pick and maybe some future picks for Butler. Assuming we trade Bradley then you have

IT/Rozier/Jackson
Butler/Smart
Hayward/Brown/Nader
Crowder/some vet min or room exception signing
Horford/Zizic

Tha's really the only way this works

That's just not true. Making the trade for Butler on draft night works. It's the entire reason Zeller has his contract structured in this way. What doesn't change is that you would still have to send out matching salary to maintain cap space.

If you do the trade on draft night then you have more flexibility when looking to bring Yab over or keeping Rozier or KO. Now I'm not a fan of this but here is how it could work:

Butler = $17,552,209

Bradley, Crowder, Zeller and Nets 17 = $8,269,663 + $6,286,408 + $8,000,000 = $22,556,071

More importantly for us that is $20,411,271 in 2017-18 salary (assuming 1st pick in the draft). So we would increase our cap space in the summer by $2,859,062. This would put us well into the range to sign a max FA (without the trade we would be roughly $1.8m short). This would mean we could keep Rozier, which would be a plus given who we trade away.

If you sign Hayward first then we have to move some of these guys out first. When we subsequently make the trade for Butler, we either have to hope the package is of less value (i.e. only one of Crowder/Bradley) or we have to accept an even thinner roster. From a roster perspective it makes more sense to make the trade first.

Edit: Stashing Yab doesn't free up the necessary cap space because it would incur a roster spot charge equivalent to the Min salary. Stashing him would only save $1m which isn't even enough to open up the cap space if we get the 4th overall pick. You have to go further than that.

You can not trade Zeller on draft night without first picking up his option for 2017-18. Once you do this you lose your cap room to sign Hayward. Sorry but you are mistaken on this. Once the Celtics play that last game, Zeller's contract ends unless the Celtics pick up his option. If you pick up the option you add his $8 million salary to 2017-18 hence ending any chance of having enough money to sign a max free agent.

It's not an option to be picked up, it is a non-guaranteed contract. It only becomes guaranteed in the summer, just like Amir and JJ last year. Therefore there are not the restrictions on it that you would find on an option. It has often been misrepresented as an option to be picked up because some writers don't seem to understand the difference. However I assure you it is not an option, it is a non guaranteed contract of the same vein as Mickey and Jackson. It absolutely can be traded on draft night.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/boston-celtics-team-salary/

On this link you will see that Zeller's 2017-18 contract figure is in red, signifying non-guaranteed. This can be compared to the purple team option of other players such as Jaylen Brown in 2018-19. We don't have any player options (light blue) but you can see them listed on other teams pages.

Edit: In fact that page lists the date that Zeller becomes guaranteed, 2nd July 2017.

I am telling you, once the Celtics play their last game, Zeller's 2016-17 portion of his contract is over. Thats why draft day trades don't get finalized until the next season starts. The last time the Celtics had the opportunity to trade Zeller's 2016-17 was at the deadline. In order to trade him draft day you must guarantee his contract for 2017-18.

You can tell me 100 times and in a loud voice but it doesn't make you any more correct. You seem to have a profound misunderstanding of NBA contracts. You cannot trade a player in the last year of an NBA contract, such as Amir or JJ this year. You can trade a player with a non-guaranteed contract in the following year.

Perhaps you can provide some evidence to support your view? Show me something that says you cannot trade a non-guaranteed player in this period? Zeller's guarantee decision is even set to happen after the moratorium is over, so they would finalise the draft night trade before he gets guaranteed! The Bulls would then waive him before the 2nd July.

You have zero fact to support your case, quite literally because there is none. Check the cbafaq, tell me where this rule is that says non-guaranteed players cannot be traded? Tell me how Chris Babb was traded to the Warriors as part of the David Lee trade?

[nickagneta]

If you want to add Butler and Hayward to the team then you must trade out an equal amount of 2017-18 salary in a Butler trade as you receive.

Your proposition won't work because in order to sign Hayward this summer, Zeller is already gone.

A trade would need to look something like this:

Butler for Bradley, Crowder, Smart at a minimum. Then you can sign Hayward to the max. Basically the only way you can do it is if you trade away 3 core pieces from this years team

That's not quite true. Salaries need to "match", but not exactly. Bradley + BRK #1 probably works, so long as the pick is signed 30 days before the trade.

I get where you are coming from but no. The trade would be made on draft night anyway which means you could use Zeller to make up the salary in your scenario, you don't have to sign the pick first.

Look at it this way. Take the current roster and adjust it to sign Hayward. That is the pool of players you have to trade for Butler. Furthermore, but yes depending on who is in your pool, you will have to match the salary incoming in order to maintain the cap space. Given that it will be a struggle to make enough cap space anyway, it is safe to assume it must be equal.

This is probably a better question to ask post draft lottery as we will have definition over the Brooklyn pick.

The only way this works is to draft and sign whoever Chicago wants on draft night then sign them. Then renounce rights to Green, Amir, Young and KO and don't pick up the Zeller option. Then you have to stash Yabusele another year. This clears the cap space for Hayward.30 days after the pick is signed you trade either Crowder or Bradley plus the signed pick and maybe some future picks for Butler. Assuming we trade Bradley then you have

IT/Rozier/Jackson
Butler/Smart
Hayward/Brown/Nader
Crowder/some vet min or room exception signing
Horford/Zizic

Tha's really the only way this works

That's just not true. Making the trade for Butler on draft night works. It's the entire reason Zeller has his contract structured in this way. What doesn't change is that you would still have to send out matching salary to maintain cap space.

If you do the trade on draft night then you have more flexibility when looking to bring Yab over or keeping Rozier or KO. Now I'm not a fan of this but here is how it could work:

Butler = $17,552,209

Bradley, Crowder, Zeller and Nets 17 = $8,269,663 + $6,286,408 + $8,000,000 = $22,556,071

More importantly for us that is $20,411,271 in 2017-18 salary (assuming 1st pick in the draft). So we would increase our cap space in the summer by $2,859,062. This would put us well into the range to sign a max FA (without the trade we would be roughly $1.8m short). This would mean we could keep Rozier, which would be a plus given who we trade away.

If you sign Hayward first then we have to move some of these guys out first. When we subsequently make the trade for Butler, we either have to hope the package is of less value (i.e. only one of Crowder/Bradley) or we have to accept an even thinner roster. From a roster perspective it makes more sense to make the trade first.

Edit: Stashing Yab doesn't free up the necessary cap space because it would incur a roster spot charge equivalent to the Min salary. Stashing him would only save $1m which isn't even enough to open up the cap space if we get the 4th overall pick. You have to go further than that.

You can not trade Zeller on draft night without first picking up his option for 2017-18. Once you do this you lose your cap room to sign Hayward. Sorry but you are mistaken on this. Once the Celtics play that last game, Zeller's contract ends unless the Celtics pick up his option. If you pick up the option you add his $8 million salary to 2017-18 hence ending any chance of having enough money to sign a max free agent.

It's not an option to be picked up, it is a non-guaranteed contract. It only becomes guaranteed in the summer, just like Amir and JJ last year. Therefore there are not the restrictions on it that you would find on an option. It has often been misrepresented as an option to be picked up because some writers don't seem to understand the difference. However I assure you it is not an option, it is a non guaranteed contract of the same vein as Mickey and Jackson. It absolutely can be traded on draft night.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/boston-celtics-team-salary/

On this link you will see that Zeller's 2017-18 contract figure is in red, signifying non-guaranteed. This can be compared to the purple team option of other players such as Jaylen Brown in 2018-19. We don't have any player options (light blue) but you can see them listed on other teams pages.

Edit: In fact that page lists the date that Zeller becomes guaranteed, 2nd July 2017.

I am telling you, once the Celtics play their last game, Zeller's 2016-17 portion of his contract is over. Thats why draft day trades don't get finalized until the next season starts. The last time the Celtics had the opportunity to trade Zeller's 2016-17 was at the deadline. In order to trade him draft day you must guarantee his contract for 2017-18.

You can tell me 100 times and in a loud voice but it doesn't make you any more correct. You seem to have a profound misunderstanding of NBA contracts. You cannot trade a player in the last year of an NBA contract, such as Amir or JJ this year. You can trade a player with a non-guaranteed contract in the following year.

Perhaps you can provide some evidence to support your view? Show me something that says you cannot trade a non-guaranteed player in this period? Zeller's guarantee decision is even set to happen after the moratorium is over, so they would finalise the draft night trade before he gets guaranteed! The Bulls would then waive him before the 2nd July.

You have zero fact to support your case, quite literally because there is none. Check the cbafaq, tell me where this rule is that says non-guaranteed players cannot be traded? Tell me how Chris Babb was traded to the Warriors as part of the David Lee trade?

Question 64 of Coons CBAFAQ near the bottom says non-guaranteed contracts are to be treated as team options. Question 100 says a player with a team option can not be traded after the trade deadline.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

[TheSundanceKid]

It's not an option to be picked up, it is a non-guaranteed contract. It only becomes guaranteed in the summer, just like Amir and JJ last year. Therefore there are not the restrictions on it that you would find on an option. It has often been misrepresented as an option to be picked up because some writers don't seem to understand the difference. However I assure you it is not an option, it is a non guaranteed contract of the same vein as Mickey and Jackson. It absolutely can be traded on draft night.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/boston-celtics-team-salary/

On this link you will see that Zeller's 2017-18 contract figure is in red, signifying non-guaranteed. This can be compared to the purple team option of other players such as Jaylen Brown in 2018-19. We don't have any player options (light blue) but you can see them listed on other teams pages.

Edit: In fact that page lists the date that Zeller becomes guaranteed, 2nd July 2017.

I am telling you, once the Celtics play their last game, Zeller's 2016-17 portion of his contract is over. Thats why draft day trades don't get finalized until the next season starts. The last time the Celtics had the opportunity to trade Zeller's 2016-17 was at the deadline. In order to trade him draft day you must guarantee his contract for 2017-18.

You can tell me 100 times and in a loud voice but it doesn't make you any more correct. You seem to have a profound misunderstanding of NBA contracts. You cannot trade a player in the last year of an NBA contract, such as Amir or JJ this year. You can trade a player with a non-guaranteed contract in the following year.

Perhaps you can provide some evidence to support your view? Show me something that says you cannot trade a non-guaranteed player in this period? Zeller's guarantee decision is even set to happen after the moratorium is over, so they would finalise the draft night trade before he gets guaranteed! The Bulls would then waive him before the 2nd July.

You have zero fact to support your case, quite literally because there is none. Check the cbafaq, tell me where this rule is that says non-guaranteed players cannot be traded? Tell me how Chris Babb was traded to the Warriors as part of the David Lee trade?

Question 64 of Coons CBAFAQ near the bottom says non-guaranteed contracts are to be treated as team options. Question 100 says a player with a team option can not be traded after the trade deadline.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

"A non-guaranteed season can be similar in function to a team option. Teams often prefer the additional flexibility provided by non-guaranteed salary -- the guarantee can change on a date of their choosing, they can guarantee partial amounts, and they can attach different conditions to the protection."

That is the only reference to a similarity to a team option that I could see. That does not say that it is to be treated as a team option. In fact it describes that it has additional flexibility over a team option.

The guarantee can change on a date of their choosing. This is what differentiates it. The date of guarantee is in the summer, post moratorium. So the 2016-17 year is not the final contract year for Tyler Zeller, therefore Q100 does not apply to his contract.

[fantankerous]

It's not an option to be picked up, it is a non-guaranteed contract. It only becomes guaranteed in the summer, just like Amir and JJ last year. Therefore there are not the restrictions on it that you would find on an option. It has often been misrepresented as an option to be picked up because some writers don't seem to understand the difference. However I assure you it is not an option, it is a non guaranteed contract of the same vein as Mickey and Jackson. It absolutely can be traded on draft night.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/boston-celtics-team-salary/

On this link you will see that Zeller's 2017-18 contract figure is in red, signifying non-guaranteed. This can be compared to the purple team option of other players such as Jaylen Brown in 2018-19. We don't have any player options (light blue) but you can see them listed on other teams pages.

Edit: In fact that page lists the date that Zeller becomes guaranteed, 2nd July 2017.

I am telling you, once the Celtics play their last game, Zeller's 2016-17 portion of his contract is over. Thats why draft day trades don't get finalized until the next season starts. The last time the Celtics had the opportunity to trade Zeller's 2016-17 was at the deadline. In order to trade him draft day you must guarantee his contract for 2017-18.

You can tell me 100 times and in a loud voice but it doesn't make you any more correct. You seem to have a profound misunderstanding of NBA contracts. You cannot trade a player in the last year of an NBA contract, such as Amir or JJ this year. You can trade a player with a non-guaranteed contract in the following year.

Perhaps you can provide some evidence to support your view? Show me something that says you cannot trade a non-guaranteed player in this period? Zeller's guarantee decision is even set to happen after the moratorium is over, so they would finalise the draft night trade before he gets guaranteed! The Bulls would then waive him before the 2nd July.

You have zero fact to support your case, quite literally because there is none. Check the cbafaq, tell me where this rule is that says non-guaranteed players cannot be traded? Tell me how Chris Babb was traded to the Warriors as part of the David Lee trade?

Question 64 of Coons CBAFAQ near the bottom says non-guaranteed contracts are to be treated as team options. Question 100 says a player with a team option can not be traded after the trade deadline.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

"A non-guaranteed season can be similar in function to a team option. Teams often prefer the additional flexibility provided by non-guaranteed salary -- the guarantee can change on a date of their choosing, they can guarantee partial amounts, and they can attach different conditions to the protection."

That is the only reference to a similarity to a team option that I could see. That does not say that it is to be treated as a team option. In fact it describes that it has additional flexibility over a team option.

The guarantee can change on a date of their choosing. This is what differentiates it. The date of guarantee is in the summer, post moratorium. So the 2016-17 year is not the final contract year for Tyler Zeller, therefore Q100 does not apply to his contract.

It's my understanding that this interpretation is correct.  The benefit of a non-guaranteed contract versus a team option is that Zeller is technically considered to be under contract for next season and therefore eligible to be traded.  Whereas if he had a team option, he would not be considered under contract for next season until the option was exercised.

[tstorey_97]

Thanks to the guys who study the cap, your views are appreciated!

My point is directed to "celticsfan166" who posted this thread in the first place.

There is something to add to the "get two superstars this off season" discussion. As Horford stays and two more max contracts arrive or will do so a year or two hence, what happens to Thomas?

Thus, our discussion is about get these two new guys and go for title in 2018 before IT walks? My point is this, why isn't IT included in these trade proposals and if he is? It changes everything a lot.

(To those who like or don't like Thomas this is merely a "detail" that I thought the original poster may have missed. The Celtics can't have Hayward (max) Horford (max) and another guy (max or soon to be max) and Thomas(about to max or Brinks depending on how you look at it).

[TheSundanceKid]

Thanks to the guys who study the cap, your views are appreciated!

My point is directed to "celticsfan166" who posted this thread in the first place.

There is something to add to the "get two superstars this off season" discussion. As Horford stays and two more max contracts arrive or will do so a year or two hence, what happens to Thomas?

Thus, our discussion is about get these two new guys and go for title in 2018 before IT walks? My point is this, why isn't IT included in these trade proposals and if he is? It changes everything a lot.

(To those who like or don't like Thomas this is merely a "detail" that I thought the original poster may have missed. The Celtics can't have Hayward (max) Horford (max) and another guy (max or soon to be max) and Thomas(about to max or Brinks depending on how you look at it).

There's a couple of FanPosts over the last few months that have mentioned this. I can't remember the exact numbers off hand but it's something like a $50m repeater tax once IT is signed to his supposed max. It is slightly better if we get Butler instead of George (one more year under current contract) but still a lot.

I guess the thinking here is to go all in on this group and pay the tax. You would always have the option of moving one of the 4 in 2-3 years to ease the tax concerns. For example you could move Hayward in Year 3 of his 4 year contract if you feel that Brown has developed enough to take his place. I would imagine you could get a good return for him even at that point which may improve the balance of the team overall as well. Definitely a concern if we end up going that route though.

[tstorey_97]

sundance reply = TP!

[nickagneta]

If I am wrong, I am wrong but I have always interpretted it my way. Must of just got confused regarding the difference between non-guaranteed and team option and CBO. But Coon doesn't specifically say how you interpret it either.

Oh well. Good convo. I learned something new today.