LeBron will likely pass Jordan this playoffs

[slamtheking]

The 90's was in my mind the worst decade in basketball history and only the 70's are in the discussion. You can't have a meaningful discussion with people until they realize this but it is hard because much if this board free up on 90's basketball so they look at it more fondly.

how could anyone look fondly at 90's basketball?  it sucked.  not too fond of the first several years in the 00's either.  the more I think about it, I'm not too fond of NBA basketball after Bird and Mchale retired. 

I'm probably a dinosaur here but I miss watching a good offensive post player do their thing.  Mchale would tear up this league as it's currently constituted.

[Donoghus]

The 90's was in my mind the worst decade in basketball history and only the 70's are in the discussion. You can't have a meaningful discussion with people until they realize this but it is hard because much if this board free up on 90's basketball so they look at it more fondly.

how could anyone look fondly at 90's basketball?  it sucked.  not too fond of the first several years in the 00's either.  the more I think about it, I'm not too fond of NBA basketball after Bird and Mchale retired. 

I'm probably a dinosaur here but I miss watching a good offensive post player do their thing.  Mchale would tear up this league as it's currently constituted.

Personally, I think the early '00s make the '90s look like a golden era.  Terrible time for basketball although Kings/Lakers was a fun rivalry.   

I actually don't mind early to mid 90s NBA.  Thought it was pretty entertaining.   Guess the delineation point for me would probably be the TOR/VAN expansion.  Things seemed to get worse after that. 

[Big333223]

The 90's was in my mind the worst decade in basketball history and only the 70's are in the discussion. You can't have a meaningful discussion with people until they realize this but it is hard because much if this board free up on 90's basketball so they look at it more fondly.

how could anyone look fondly at 90's basketball?  it sucked.  not too fond of the first several years in the 00's either.  the more I think about it, I'm not too fond of NBA basketball after Bird and Mchale retired. 

I'm probably a dinosaur here but I miss watching a good offensive post player do their thing.  Mchale would tear up this league as it's currently constituted.

Personally, I think the early '00s make the '90s look like a golden era.  Terrible time for basketball although Kings/Lakers was a fun rivalry.   

I actually don't mind early to mid 90s NBA.  Thought it was pretty entertaining.   Guess the delineation point for me would probably be the TOR/VAN expansion.  Things seemed to get worse after that.

It's like how Lorne Michaels says everyone's favorite SNL cast is the one that was on when they started watching. Those who grew up watching the late 90's basketball might still love it.

But yeah, adding 2 more teams in 1996 when the league had just added 4 teams between '88 and '90 meant there was just not the level of talent needed for the number of teams. Plus That same influx of money that triggered the expansion caused a huge jump in contracts which spoiled a lot of would be stars as soon as they got into the league (guys like Kenny Anderson and Derick Coleman are usually cited as examples). And then most of the stars from the late 80's-early 90's were gone by '98-'00.

So it was probably the worst from about '96 to about 2003. The illegal defense (which made the NBA an exclusively 1-on-1 league) was eliminated in '02 and then the '03 draft brought in a new class of superstars that put the NBA on the path its at now and I think we're in a terrific place now in terms of both talent and product.

That said, '96-03 probably still wasn't as weak as the league was in the mid 70's when they were competing with the ABA.

[Moranis]

The 90's was in my mind the worst decade in basketball history and only the 70's are in the discussion. You can't have a meaningful discussion with people until they realize this but it is hard because much if this board free up on 90's basketball so they look at it more fondly.

how could anyone look fondly at 90's basketball?  it sucked.  not too fond of the first several years in the 00's either.  the more I think about it, I'm not too fond of NBA basketball after Bird and Mchale retired. 

I'm probably a dinosaur here but I miss watching a good offensive post player do their thing.  Mchale would tear up this league as it's currently constituted.

Personally, I think the early '00s make the '90s look like a golden era.  Terrible time for basketball although Kings/Lakers was a fun rivalry.   

I actually don't mind early to mid 90s NBA.  Thought it was pretty entertaining.   Guess the delineation point for me would probably be the TOR/VAN expansion.  Things seemed to get worse after that.

the early 2000's at least had more than 1 legit contender.  The 90's really were the Bulls and no one else.  The Spurs and Kings at least posed a threat to the Lakers.  The East was pretty bad but honestly no worse than the West for much of the 90's. Then you had the rise of the Pistons, Heat and Pacers in the early mid 2000's while the Lakers (until the Heat), Spurs and to a lesser extent Mavs and Suns were on the rise.

[Donoghus]

The 90's was in my mind the worst decade in basketball history and only the 70's are in the discussion. You can't have a meaningful discussion with people until they realize this but it is hard because much if this board free up on 90's basketball so they look at it more fondly.

how could anyone look fondly at 90's basketball?  it sucked.  not too fond of the first several years in the 00's either.  the more I think about it, I'm not too fond of NBA basketball after Bird and Mchale retired. 

I'm probably a dinosaur here but I miss watching a good offensive post player do their thing.  Mchale would tear up this league as it's currently constituted.

Personally, I think the early '00s make the '90s look like a golden era.  Terrible time for basketball although Kings/Lakers was a fun rivalry.   

I actually don't mind early to mid 90s NBA.  Thought it was pretty entertaining.   Guess the delineation point for me would probably be the TOR/VAN expansion.  Things seemed to get worse after that.

the early 2000's at least had more than 1 legit contender.  The 90's really were the Bulls and no one else.  The Spurs and Kings at least posed a threat to the Lakers.  The East was pretty bad but honestly no worse than the West for much of the 90's. Then you had the rise of the Pistons, Heat and Pacers in the early mid 2000's while the Lakers (until the Heat), Spurs and to a lesser extent Mavs and Suns were on the rise.

The quality of basketball being played from the lockout through the early 2000s was not a good brand of basketball. 

Early 90s provided a time of the torch getting passed from Bird & Magic and seeing guys like Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, etc... really coming into their primes.   NBA basketball really wasn't that bad at all.

You can judge an era by a helluva lot more than the number of contenders.  Hell, the supposed "golden era of basketball", the 1980s, had about 4 true contenders throughout the decade (Celtics, Lakers, Sixers, Pistons).  That doesn't deter from the fact that it was an entertaining time for NBA basketball.  You had one champion the first 3 years of the 2000s (essentially, same as '90s) and a series of horrific NBA Finals matchups in the early part of that decade also.  It was also a transition from the stars of the 90s to the guys that would make up the stars of the 2000s but many weren't quite there yet.

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

Well, Mike did skip 4 seasons in his career.

yea... yawn. He has half as many titles and this will be his 12th full prime season which is how many full prime seasons Jordan played. The comparison is dead.

MJ is the GOAT, but he had way better supporting casts with the exception of the first Miami title.

All of LeBron's  titles have come on a team that had ten times the supporting cast that Jordan had. Sure, Jordan had Pippen, who was a great player but what else?! LeBron whined about not having enough talent on his team this year when he has Kyrie, Love, Thompson, Josh Smith.

Is this a freaking joke?

You are a clueless LeBron hater. Confirmed.

MJ had the greatest rebounder ever, Kukoc, Harper, the best set shooter in NBA history in Kerr, and a coach with 11 rings to his name.

Josh Smith is being used as a guy to bolster the argument that LeBron has help? What planet are you living on?

Randy what are you even responding to? When did Josh smith play with Lebron?

I think we both meant JR, although neither he nor Josh are guys you should be comparing to Kerr or Kukoc.

Where are you getting this Steve Kerr was a legend stuff? His career high in ppg was 8.5 I think. At his peak Noah smith was actually a way better player that changed the game in a lot of ways. Even jr smith, who I hate, has had seasons where he made a big difference as a scorer. Kerr was absolutely an elite role player and could make a difference in certain situations, but he really wasn't a game changer. If he didn't become a broadcaster/coach a lot of people would have forgotten him.

He shot 50 percent from 3 in an era where guys drastically undervalued the shot. He was an incredibly valuable player.

[celticsclay]

Well, Mike did skip 4 seasons in his career.

yea... yawn. He has half as many titles and this will be his 12th full prime season which is how many full prime seasons Jordan played. The comparison is dead.

MJ is the GOAT, but he had way better supporting casts with the exception of the first Miami title.

All of LeBron's  titles have come on a team that had ten times the supporting cast that Jordan had. Sure, Jordan had Pippen, who was a great player but what else?! LeBron whined about not having enough talent on his team this year when he has Kyrie, Love, Thompson, Josh Smith.

Is this a freaking joke?

You are a clueless LeBron hater. Confirmed.

MJ had the greatest rebounder ever, Kukoc, Harper, the best set shooter in NBA history in Kerr, and a coach with 11 rings to his name.

Josh Smith is being used as a guy to bolster the argument that LeBron has help? What planet are you living on?

Randy what are you even responding to? When did Josh smith play with Lebron?

I think we both meant JR, although neither he nor Josh are guys you should be comparing to Kerr or Kukoc.

Where are you getting this Steve Kerr was a legend stuff? His career high in ppg was 8.5 I think. At his peak Noah smith was actually a way better player that changed the game in a lot of ways. Even jr smith, who I hate, has had seasons where he made a big difference as a scorer. Kerr was absolutely an elite role player and could make a difference in certain situations, but he really wasn't a game changer. If he didn't become a broadcaster/coach a lot of people would have forgotten him.

He shot 50 percent from 3 in an era where guys drastically undervalued the shot. He was an incredibly valuable player.

Randy you are making a habit of throwing in one liners that don't add a lot to the ongoing conversation. He is a nice weapon to have. However, his career high in minutes was under 25 a game. In his 15 year career he only even got above 20 minutes a game 5 times. He never even averaged 3 3 point attempts per game.

By comparison, in his time with the Cavs Korver is making 4 3 pointers a game at nearly 50%. Korver has also averaged double figures every season his whole career. Yet, nobody is going to be mentioning Korver is as some great teammate of Lebron's (he is perhaps their 6th most valuable player?). That is the context of this conversation to which your comment added nothing.

[celticsclay]

The 90's was in my mind the worst decade in basketball history and only the 70's are in the discussion. You can't have a meaningful discussion with people until they realize this but it is hard because much if this board free up on 90's basketball so they look at it more fondly.

how could anyone look fondly at 90's basketball?  it sucked.  not too fond of the first several years in the 00's either.  the more I think about it, I'm not too fond of NBA basketball after Bird and Mchale retired. 

I'm probably a dinosaur here but I miss watching a good offensive post player do their thing.  Mchale would tear up this league as it's currently constituted.

Personally, I think the early '00s make the '90s look like a golden era.  Terrible time for basketball although Kings/Lakers was a fun rivalry.   

I actually don't mind early to mid 90s NBA.  Thought it was pretty entertaining.   Guess the delineation point for me would probably be the TOR/VAN expansion.  Things seemed to get worse after that.

It's like how Lorne Michaels says everyone's favorite SNL cast is the one that was on when they started watching. Those who grew up watching the late 90's basketball might still love it.

But yeah, adding 2 more teams in 1996 when the league had just added 4 teams between '88 and '90 meant there was just not the level of talent needed for the number of teams. Plus That same influx of money that triggered the expansion caused a huge jump in contracts which spoiled a lot of would be stars as soon as they got into the league (guys like Kenny Anderson and Derick Coleman are usually cited as examples). And then most of the stars from the late 80's-early 90's were gone by '98-'00.

So it was probably the worst from about '96 to about 2003. The illegal defense (which made the NBA an exclusively 1-on-1 league) was eliminated in '02 and then the '03 draft brought in a new class of superstars that put the NBA on the path its at now and I think we're in a terrific place now in terms of both talent and product.

That said, '96-03 probably still wasn't as weak as the league was in the mid 70's when they were competing with the ABA.

Wasn't the 80's when the league was ravaged by drug use a pretty bad time for it? I believe Stern and others have regularly talked about how players like Bird, Johnson and Jordan saved the game from that extremely dark period for the league. I mean players were literally ended up in jail or dead (including one of our own). Beyond that people talk about the 2000's as a very dark period after Jordan retired with an error of failed "next jordans", isolation basketball Tracy McGrady, Iverson, Stackhouse and Carter all doing 1 on 1 basketball at low efficiency with little or no ball movement. The early 90's was actually a really exciting time for the league with Shaq being the most hyped and fantastic thing to enter the league, Jordan chugging along, Larry Johnson and Mourning entering the league and exciting a new fan base in Charlotte. Honestly this thread has just become a bit of an embarassment led by one poster that is a huge fan of Lebron saying

1) Lebron is as good as Jordan
2) Jordan may have done steroids
3) The teams Jordan played against in the finals were not very good
4) The league was terrible in the 90's one of the worst

Isn't this getting a little over the top? 

[Celtics4ever]

1) Lebron is as good as Jordan

He is not.  Most folks have Jordan over LeBron.

For Jordan

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/ranking-the-25-greatest-players-in-nba-history-100716

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankalltime/greatest-players-ever

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/cbs-sports-50-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time-where-do-lebron-curry-rank/

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1795233-10-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time

https://www.si.com/nba/2016/02/09/michael-jordan-lebron-james-stephen-curry-nba-greatest

I am sure that LeBron is out there on some lists as number one in CLE.   But he is not the GOAT in any of these lists.   In face, though a poster thinks this does not make it true.   He is entitled to his opinion, though regardless.

2) Jordan may have done steroids

There is  more rumors that LeBroid did them.

)3 The teams Jordan played against in the finals were not very good

This is debatable.

4) The league was terrible in the 90's one of the worst

This is debatable, I think people were more skilled with more college.   Now it is the league of the super athlete and there are some great players.    LeBron is an all time great, but his win loss record in the finals really hurts him because he did not deliver the goods when it mattered most.   Now, I realize it is miraculous and a testament of his ability that he has made it to so many finals. 

But the consensus of many is that he is the GOAT of all time.   One has to realize that being a big fan can slant your opinion.  My favorite of all time is Larry Bird.   But even I concede he is not the greatest and I am not blind in my love for him as a player.

[ederson]

There are more rumours about LeBron? What kind of argument is that?

Did Jordan have to deal with facebook and twitter?  Today he would have faced the same stupid accusations from anyone who doesn't like him.

[celticsclay]

There are more rumours about LeBron? What kind of argument is that?

Did Jordan have to deal with facebook and twitter?  Today he would have faced the same stupid accusations from anyone who doesn't like him.

if we want to keep this fact based, there has been more physical reasons to think Lebron did some heavy supplementing legal or otherwise.

Leaving 3-4 games with cramps (most common symptom of these kinds of supplements)
Having a growth removed from his jaw
Having rapid weight gain and loss in one offseason (it was visually crazy)
Being probably the most muscular player in the entire league
Having some sort of connection to a controversial doctor in Florida


I don't think I have ever actually accused Lebron of doing them, and certainly don't think those things make it mean he did it.

However, to act like Jordan, who was more notorious for being in casino's and drinking nights before a game, golfing and berating teammates in practice, than his physique had an equal level of things that would draw attention for steroids is pretty willfully naive.

The big story regarding Jordan's strength was that for the majority of his career he did not want to lift weights with teammates because he was pretty competitive and was weaker than most of them.

If Jordan was in the 24/7 news cycle there would be a ton of negative things that would be much more widely known and probably everyone would think he was a real jerk. I highly doubt one of the top 20 outcomes of him being in the news cycle would be "steroid accusations." That was just a square peg in a round hole by Moranis. 

[tarheelsxxiii]

There are more rumours about LeBron? What kind of argument is that?

Did Jordan have to deal with facebook and twitter?  Today he would have faced the same stupid accusations from anyone who doesn't like him.

if we want to keep this fact based, there has been more physical reasons to think Lebron did some heavy supplementing legal or otherwise.

Leaving 3-4 games with cramps (most common symptom of these kinds of supplements)
Having a growth removed from his jaw
Having rapid weight gain and loss in one offseason (it was visually crazy)
Being probably the most muscular player in the entire league
Having some sort of connection to a controversial doctor in Florida


I don't think I have ever actually accused Lebron of doing them, and certainly don't think those things make it mean he did it.

Well said. And an unprecedented injury history:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/2015/06/16/unbreakable-lebron-james-is-bizarrely-injury-proof/

[Moranis]

There are more rumours about LeBron? What kind of argument is that?

Did Jordan have to deal with facebook and twitter?  Today he would have faced the same stupid accusations from anyone who doesn't like him.

if we want to keep this fact based, there has been more physical reasons to think Lebron did some heavy supplementing legal or otherwise.

Leaving 3-4 games with cramps (most common symptom of these kinds of supplements)
Having a growth removed from his jaw
Having rapid weight gain and loss in one offseason (it was visually crazy)
Being probably the most muscular player in the entire league
Having some sort of connection to a controversial doctor in Florida


I don't think I have ever actually accused Lebron of doing them, and certainly don't think those things make it mean he did it.

Well said. And an unprecedented injury history:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/2015/06/16/unbreakable-lebron-james-is-bizarrely-injury-proof/

that is just nonsense. When was Garnett, Malone, Duncan, Nowitzki, etc. injured. Oh you mean after they were 35 hmmm.

And the evidence clay has is also just nonsense.  MJ got noticeably more buff in one off season. Tim Grover built his entire career on that one off season. In fact Jordan said he was tired of being pushed around and had to get stronger.  What can make someone stronger very quickly.  Hmm.  Oh you mean the NBA didnt test for steroids in 1989.  Hmm. MJ showed classic signs of roid rage especially with his anger and secretive nature.  Played in a baseball clubhouse with 5 separate players named in the Mitchell Report (how it that much different than saying well this doctor had cheaters for clients so James must have also been a cheater).


And for the record I never said Jordan used steroids, I said if there was the internet all of the same things being said about James would have been said about Jordan for all of the reasons identified above.

[celticsclay]

There are more rumours about LeBron? What kind of argument is that?

Did Jordan have to deal with facebook and twitter?  Today he would have faced the same stupid accusations from anyone who doesn't like him.

if we want to keep this fact based, there has been more physical reasons to think Lebron did some heavy supplementing legal or otherwise.

Leaving 3-4 games with cramps (most common symptom of these kinds of supplements)
Having a growth removed from his jaw
Having rapid weight gain and loss in one offseason (it was visually crazy)
Being probably the most muscular player in the entire league
Having some sort of connection to a controversial doctor in Florida


I don't think I have ever actually accused Lebron of doing them, and certainly don't think those things make it mean he did it.

Well said. And an unprecedented injury history:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/2015/06/16/unbreakable-lebron-james-is-bizarrely-injury-proof/

that is just nonsense. When was Garnett, Malone, Duncan, Nowitzki, etc. injured. Oh you mean after they were 35 hmmm.

And the evidence clay has is also just nonsense.  MJ got noticeably more buff in one off season. Tim Grover built his entire career on that one off season. In fact Jordan said he was tired of being pushed around and had to get stronger.  What can make someone stronger very quickly.  Hmm.  Oh you mean the NBA didnt test for steroids in 1989.  Hmm. MJ showed classic signs of roid rage especially with his anger and secretive nature.  Played in a baseball clubhouse with 5 separate players named in the Mitchell Report (how it that much different than saying well this doctor had cheaters for clients so James must have also been a cheater).


And for the record I never said Jordan used steroids, I said if there was the internet all of the same things being said about James would have been said about Jordan for all of the reasons identified above.

I pointed out that he had a surgery to remove a growth on his jaw, left multiple games due to cramps, and had an extremely rapid weight loss and gain cycle.

These are actually documented facts
http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/53e22a56eab8ea63106c108e-480/lebron-james-skinny.jpg

And are all scientifically proven to be connected to changes in hormone levels and performance enhancing drugs.

You come back discussing Jordan's "secretive nature."


Look people get that you have lived in Ohio and have really come to like Lebron. I have lived in the Bay Area for a number of years and there are some players I like more because of it. Yet if I start really liking Klay Thompson it doesn't do anyone any good for me to start tearing down Demar Dorozen or Reggie Miller and saying they may have done steroids or played weak opposition. This is just making you look petty and childish and is making the board look worse as a whole.

[tarheelsxxiii]

There are more rumours about LeBron? What kind of argument is that?

Did Jordan have to deal with facebook and twitter?  Today he would have faced the same stupid accusations from anyone who doesn't like him.

if we want to keep this fact based, there has been more physical reasons to think Lebron did some heavy supplementing legal or otherwise.

Leaving 3-4 games with cramps (most common symptom of these kinds of supplements)
Having a growth removed from his jaw
Having rapid weight gain and loss in one offseason (it was visually crazy)
Being probably the most muscular player in the entire league
Having some sort of connection to a controversial doctor in Florida


I don't think I have ever actually accused Lebron of doing them, and certainly don't think those things make it mean he did it.

Well said. And an unprecedented injury history:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/2015/06/16/unbreakable-lebron-james-is-bizarrely-injury-proof/

that is just nonsense. When was Garnett, Malone, Duncan, Nowitzki, etc. injured. Oh you mean after they were 35 hmmm.

And the evidence clay has is also just nonsense.  MJ got noticeably more buff in one off season. Tim Grover built his entire career on that one off season. In fact Jordan said he was tired of being pushed around and had to get stronger.  What can make someone stronger very quickly.  Hmm.  Oh you mean the NBA didnt test for steroids in 1989.  Hmm. MJ showed classic signs of roid rage especially with his anger and secretive nature.  Played in a baseball clubhouse with 5 separate players named in the Mitchell Report (how it that much different than saying well this doctor had cheaters for clients so James must have also been a cheater).


And for the record I never said Jordan used steroids, I said if there was the internet all of the same things being said about James would have been said about Jordan for all of the reasons identified above.

Read the article. Comparisons are made to the players you listed.  I've provided the same info as clay in prior threads, and I'm pretty sure I provided links to the scientific evidence clay mentioned. Taken together, it's definitely plausible that he has used PEDs.  There's no need to take that personally - I'm sure a lot of players have been and are guilty of the same.