Celtics' Isaiah Thomas is a fourth-quarter killer, but which team is he killing?

[spikelovetheCelts]

Who else on the is team is going to shoot the ball with a 100-100 score with 5 seconds left. He can't ride the pine and come in cold. If we get another good big everything will change on the D. Surely The Kings have got to free a C.

[Bobshot]

The name of the game is, will you or will you not win a championship with IT being the starting point guard. Does his offensive output, off set his liability on defense?

No doubt, he's a valuable player, it fact a historical player, when considering his size. And if you're collecting jerseys... go for it.


But the question must be asked...

Tough question. IT has big plusses and minuses.

Against Detroit the other night, he scored 41, and took over the 4Q offensively. They won the game. On the other hand, he took about 30% of the shots, and was a minus 10 for the game. Detroit's big men had a field day, closing strongly and losing by only 4 when the Celtics lead had been double digits early in the quarter. IT's fault? Well, he frequently shot the 3 before anybody else was down the court, and that ensured a Detroit rebound. But they rarely have anybody near the offensive glass, anyways. But Pope, their guard, had a field day offensively as well.

I think anytime you got one guy scoring so many points, it takes something off the game of the other four guys on the court. I don't think you can be successful that way, even today. It's never been the Celtics formula. You can look it up. The great Celtics teams had 2-3 guys or more to share the offense. Plus they had inside-outside balance, and designated rebounding/defensive players. They just aren't there yet, and maybe IT is a symptom of that.

[saltlover]

The name of the game is, will you or will you not win a championship with IT being the starting point guard. Does his offensive output, off set his liability on defense?

No doubt, he's a valuable player, it fact a historical player, when considering his size. And if you're collecting jerseys... go for it.


But the question must be asked...

Eh, I reject that question.  No one player is good enough to guarantee a championship on his own, and no player of IT's caliber (or even a good deal beneath him) is capable of single-handedly derailing championship aspirations.

Most every player has limitations of some sort, and strengths of another sort.  The key is finding players who's abilities complement each other -- collectively increasing strengths and minimizing weaknesses.

Really what we need is a big who can continue to offering floor spacing on offense and rebounds better on defense.  We're middle of the pack on 2-point defense, and 7th in 3-point defense.  Defensive rebounds kill us, and while some of that is due to defensive rotation issues, much of it is just weakness in our bigs.  It's magnified because IT can't rebound on defense, and occasionally gets beat defensively.  But it's more that our bigs have defensive rebounding problems.

Failing getting that big, the other option is to further improve the small ball offense.  Further increasing efficiency might make up for those additional possessions opponents are getting.

IT is neither the ultimate solution nor the ultimate flaw, although I do think arguments suggesting he's closer to flaw than solution are very misguided.  If he keeps it up at this pace, his offensive box plus-minus will be 8th all-time. Above him are Steph's last two seasons, 3 by MJ, and one each by McGrady and LeBron.  He's playing historically well on offense.  Arguing that you can't win with that defies logic.

[saltlover]

The name of the game is, will you or will you not win a championship with IT being the starting point guard. Does his offensive output, off set his liability on defense?

No doubt, he's a valuable player, it fact a historical player, when considering his size. And if you're collecting jerseys... go for it.


But the question must be asked...

Tough question. IT has big plusses and minuses.

Against Detroit the other night, he scored 41, and took over the 4Q offensively. They won the game. On the other hand, he took about 30% of the shots, and was a minus 10 for the game. Detroit's big men had a field day, closing strongly and losing by only 4 when the Celtics lead had been double digits early in the quarter. IT's fault? Well, he frequently shot the 3 before anybody else was down the court, and that ensured a Detroit rebound. But they rarely have anybody near the offensive glass, anyways. But Pope, their guard, had a field day offensively as well.

I think anytime you got one guy scoring so many points, it takes something off the game of the other four guys on the court. I don't think you can be successful that way, even today. It's never been the Celtics formula. You can look it up. The great Celtics teams had 2-3 guys or more to share the offense. Plus they had inside-outside balance, and designated rebounding/defensive players. They just aren't there yet, and maybe IT is a symptom of that.

This is the second time you've said this.  Please refer to my response the last time about this not being true, or provide a link to the game so we can judge otherwise.

[Somebody]

This is more emphasized here in Euro basketball and I watch it with maybe other eyes than you in America in terms of two-sided game and showtime. His defense in the fourth quarters is as extreme as his offense. Nothing to everything, that's why I tell you that he would be benched by many Euro coaches.

What I have been thinking for some heroic games by the tiny guy is that he had to extinguish the fires he had been creating.

Don't misinterpret me. I enjoy a lot watching him being the best at the end of games attacking the rim and raining threes, and Thomas is the face of this franchise... but this article shows in numbers a reality. Is he really a max guy to be the first option in a championship team or should we try to deal him at his peak market value? That is the biggest question next summer.

Um I don't mean to be rude but I think that's why euros haven't won against usa basketball for quite a long time lol

You are not rude. You are mixing different things and not getting the main idea. It happens when you don't read carefully or don't have the ability to do so.

BTW, in the last decade, USA teams with good NBA players have lost to European teams, in terms of franchises and national teams. It didn't happen before. But this is not the point here, so leave it.

Ok I see your point and I do share some concerns but his offense is so good right now that he basically commands that contract, also we can hide him provided if he plays 100% in crunch time on D. Btw not really happy with the "don't have the ability to do so" comment, I know this is true but I believe most guys on this blog generally have the ability to do so, otherwise we wouldn't be having rational debates. Also an apology for the euro basket thing, I'm not well informed in it so please spare me in this matter.

[nickagneta]

The name of the game is, will you or will you not win a championship with IT being the starting point guard. Does his offensive output, off set his liability on defense?

No doubt, he's a valuable player, it fact a historical player, when considering his size. And if you're collecting jerseys... go for it.


But the question must be asked...

Tough question. IT has big plusses and minuses.

Against Detroit the other night, he scored 41, and took over the 4Q offensively. They won the game. On the other hand, he took about 30% of the shots, and was a minus 10 for the game. Detroit's big men had a field day, closing strongly and losing by only 4 when the Celtics lead had been double digits early in the quarter. IT's fault? Well, he frequently shot the 3 before anybody else was down the court, and that ensured a Detroit rebound. But they rarely have anybody near the offensive glass, anyways. But Pope, their guard, had a field day offensively as well.

I think anytime you got one guy scoring so many points, it takes something off the game of the other four guys on the court. I don't think you can be successful that way, even today. It's never been the Celtics formula. You can look it up. The great Celtics teams had 2-3 guys or more to share the offense. Plus they had inside-outside balance, and designated rebounding/defensive players. They just aren't there yet, and maybe IT is a symptom of that.

When did Caldwell-Pope have a field day? He scored 18 points on 5 of 16 shooting, 2 of 7 from three.

[Clench123]

Maybe we've grossly underestimate how bad he really is on defense

[Rosco917]

I don't think anyone is talking about ridding ourselves of IT. The guy is a special kind of weapon, certainly a keeper. Honestly, I love watching him.

All some are saying is the playoffs in the NBA is a different game. The physicality of the game really picks-up, and the refs more struggle to control it. Small bumps are more excepted, where during the season they were called as shooting fouls.

You have several 7 game series being played, where coaching staffs begin examining opposing rosters under a microscope. Advantages are planned for, as a prepared point of attack. Where in regular season they're more casually and simply mentioned.

If you don't think a 5-9 inch point guard, having to defend a top caliber 6-4 guard, for 35 minutes a game, isn't a disadvantage, (and 7-8" disadvantage)...you're kidding yourself. This 5-9 inch point guard needs to perform on offense at an extremely high level every game. Easier said than done.

Examine the past few years the Celtics got into the playoffs, and how IT was not the factor he was during the regular season. They planned for his defense, and planned just how he would be taken advantage of.

In a perfect world, A (fill in the blank with an NBA PG you like) starting, a player with a more balanced all-around game, with an IT backing him up, would give the Celtics a better chance of winning a playoff series, and a better chance of winning a championship.   

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

This doesn't tell me anything new, it just further adds to the argument I have been making for a couple seasons. The other players on the team help IT4 much more than given credit for. They aren't just boulders he's carrying around. I don't think people really understand what everyone else has to do to help make this work. He does his thing offensively (ASSASSIN), just don't act like the other guys aren't putting in work!

[GratefulCs]

This doesn't tell me anything new, it just further adds to the argument I have been making for a couple seasons. The other players on the team help IT4 much more than given credit for. They aren't just boulders he's carrying around. I don't think people really understand what everyone else has to do to help make this work. He does his thing offensively (ASSASSIN), just don't act like the other guys aren't putting in work!

TP

Well put Shak

[Darío SpanishFan]

This is more emphasized here in Euro basketball and I watch it with maybe other eyes than you in America in terms of two-sided game and showtime. His defense in the fourth quarters is as extreme as his offense. Nothing to everything, that's why I tell you that he would be benched by many Euro coaches.

What I have been thinking for some heroic games by the tiny guy is that he had to extinguish the fires he had been creating.

Don't misinterpret me. I enjoy a lot watching him being the best at the end of games attacking the rim and raining threes, and Thomas is the face of this franchise... but this article shows in numbers a reality. Is he really a max guy to be the first option in a championship team or should we try to deal him at his peak market value? That is the biggest question next summer.

Um I don't mean to be rude but I think that's why euros haven't won against usa basketball for quite a long time lol

You are not rude. You are mixing different things and not getting the main idea. It happens when you don't read carefully or don't have the ability to do so.

BTW, in the last decade, USA teams with good NBA players have lost to European teams, in terms of franchises and national teams. It didn't happen before. But this is not the point here, so leave it.

Ok I see your point and I do share some concerns but his offense is so good right now that he basically commands that contract, also we can hide him provided if he plays 100% in crunch time on D. Btw not really happy with the "don't have the ability to do so" comment, I know this is true but I believe most guys on this blog generally have the ability to do so, otherwise we wouldn't be having rational debates. Also an apology for the euro basket thing, I'm not well informed in it so please spare me in this matter.

No problem or will to be rude to you, maybe I should have added an emoji to express my joking. Accept a TP so.

I've also liked the latest answers from Shak and Rosco and Tommy Points are also awarded. No-one is being "a hater" to IT, just opening our eyes to a possible way of improving our team: surround IT with better defenders at the end of games or explore trading options (assuming we get Fultz or Ball).

[mmmmm]

You guys are complaining about a guy who has been a consensus top 5 MVP candidate this year. 

Last week he was in three top fives. NBA.com, cbssports and one other that I'm forgetting.

The people complaining in this thread probably still think IT should come off the bench and apparently they also believe he shouldn't finish games.

I think IT should come off the bench and finish games. Like he did last year.

Thomas started 79 games last year.  We were 47-32 in those games.  We were 1-2 in the three games he did not start.

[Dannys Chipotle Guy]

You guys are complaining about a guy who has been a consensus top 5 MVP candidate this year. 

Last week he was in three top fives. NBA.com, cbssports and one other that I'm forgetting.

The people complaining in this thread probably still think IT should come off the bench and apparently they also believe he shouldn't finish games.

I think IT should come off the bench and finish games. Like he did last year.

Thomas started 79 games last year.  We were 47-32 in those games.  We were 1-2 in the three games he did not start.

1-2 with losses to 56 win Toronto and 67 San Antonio. both were reasonably close games we likely lose anyway.

1 win over 10 win philly.

cant take anything from that 3 game stretch.

[mmmmm]

Isaiah was a minus 10 last night.
Crowder was a plus 7 and Smart was a plus 11.
But Isaiah has the guts and ability to make the big shots down the stretch. A lot of players on this team are afraid to take shots when the pressure is on.
I don't know the answer, but I like the idea of Fultz as our future point guard.

Yeah I agree. Thing about +/- stat is that while it can give you a lot of info about how a player impacts a game, its not foolproof. Not all minutes are equal. We sit down Thomas in the last 2 minutes and Im certain Crowder and Smart's +7 and +11 respectively will come down and we lose.

Who was on the floor in this game a lot while IT was on the floor?

Andre Drummond, that's who.   Did everybody forget about him?   It just so happens that AD and IT were on the floor for almost the exact same minutes of this game.  IT was -10 mainly because AD was +12.

For IT to be "-10" in the game, that means points were scored by Detroit, right?  Well HOW were they scoring them?

They were scoring them with a ton of second-chance points based primarily on Drummond's rebounding dominance.   Detroit's three best big men, Drummond (28), Morris (13) and Harris (15) combined to score 56 points -- almost all of that in the paint (Morris made one 3PT shot).

Was all that dominance near the post Isaiah's fault?  Is he supposed to be defending the bigs now?

Five of the points that CAN be charged directly to Isaiah came on the two fouls on the KCP 3PT shot attempts that gave the latter 6 FT attempts (KCP made 5 of them).

But otherwise, the Pistons made hardly any of their shots from outside and their two starting guards shot horribly.  KCP shot 5 of 16, getting 5 of his 18 points from the two aforementioned plays and Jackson shot 4 of 12 and was in deep foul trouble all game.

Down the stretch Detroit absolutely feasted on Thomas. Thomas was absolutely helpless against him. Thing is, with about 5 minutes left Isaiah became unstoppable and the defense shortcomings became irrelevant.

What does that mean?  WHO "feasted on Thomas"?  Which player and how?

Per NBA/SportsVU player tracking, in the 4th period Thomas defended 3 DFGA, giving up 2 makes and he also got called for the two fouls I mentioned.  That's it.  That amounts to 9 points, over half of that came on the two fouls, one of which Stevens was howling at the refs over.

In the 4th period, Detroit's big men, Drummond, Morris, Harris and Leuer combined to score 22 points.   Which of those points were Isaiah's fault?

You do realize you can't use facts against a hot take right?

Caldewell pope had his way with Thomas. Also he was easily rubbed of on screens on a few plays forcing people to help and switch resulting in a) easy rebound opportunities and b)easier shots for Detroit that aren't technically defended but thomas.

Pope shot 30% in that game.   His scoring efficiency (TS%) was a p----poor .461 and his effective shooting (eFG%) was a miserable .375.   He took 16 FGA to score just 18 points -- and that's with a gift of 3 FTA from the refs.  He dished out just 3 assists in almost 36 minutes of play.   That is in no way having "his way" unless his desired way was to stand around and do nothing on offense.

How well did the much taller Pope & Jackson do at defending Isaiah, btw?   Were they better at fighting through screens?  Did they prevent easier shots for Boston that they technically didn't defend?  Did they do a better job of contesting IT's shots?  Did they shut the little guy down?

Or ... did Isaiah have "his way" with Pope & Jackson?

[mmmmm]

Isaiah was a minus 10 last night.
Crowder was a plus 7 and Smart was a plus 11.
But Isaiah has the guts and ability to make the big shots down the stretch. A lot of players on this team are afraid to take shots when the pressure is on.
I don't know the answer, but I like the idea of Fultz as our future point guard.

Yeah I agree. Thing about +/- stat is that while it can give you a lot of info about how a player impacts a game, its not foolproof. Not all minutes are equal. We sit down Thomas in the last 2 minutes and Im certain Crowder and Smart's +7 and +11 respectively will come down and we lose.

Who was on the floor in this game a lot while IT was on the floor?

Andre Drummond, that's who.   Did everybody forget about him?   It just so happens that AD and IT were on the floor for almost the exact same minutes of this game.  IT was -10 mainly because AD was +12.

For IT to be "-10" in the game, that means points were scored by Detroit, right?  Well HOW were they scoring them?

They were scoring them with a ton of second-chance points based primarily on Drummond's rebounding dominance.   Detroit's three best big men, Drummond (28), Morris (13) and Harris (15) combined to score 56 points -- almost all of that in the paint (Morris made one 3PT shot).

Was all that dominance near the post Isaiah's fault?  Is he supposed to be defending the bigs now?

Five of the points that CAN be charged directly to Isaiah came on the two fouls on the KCP 3PT shot attempts that gave the latter 6 FT attempts (KCP made 5 of them).

But otherwise, the Pistons made hardly any of their shots from outside and their two starting guards shot horribly.  KCP shot 5 of 16, getting 5 of his 18 points from the two aforementioned plays and Jackson shot 4 of 12 and was in deep foul trouble all game.

You should chill, because I am not blaming Isaiah. In fact, I am saying the opposite thing.

Sorry, RockinRya - my response was to the bolded line in Chris22's comment.