Report: Melo would waive no-trade for C's; Stevens would like him, Ainge doesn't

[greece66]

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2017/01/29/could-celtics-become-part-carmelo-anthony-trade/WN2SEabku427qw0sGxbuPK/story.html

MILWAUKEE — The Knicks haven’t given up hope on including the Celtics as a partner in a potential deal for Carmelo Anthony, sending a scout to Saturday’s Celtics-Bucks game.

While Celtics management told the Knicks they aren’t interested in the nine-time All-Star, the Knicks are pushing to move Anthony, according to an NBA source, and they’re intrigued by some of the Celtics’ players.

A source indicated that Knicks president Phil Jackson has instructed management to move Anthony, who has a no-trade clause but included the Celtics as one of the teams for whom he’d waive the clause. Boston could become part of a potential three-team deal that would send Anthony to another club, perhaps the Clippers.

An NBA source said Celtics coach Brad Stevens would embrace coaching Anthony, but president of basketball operations Danny Ainge has rejected any deal. That hasn’t stopped the Knicks from scouting Celtics players just in case Boston is willing to become part of a trade.

Anthony is averaging 22.6 points, 6.2 rebounds and 3.0 assists this season for the disappointing Knicks (21-27), who are two games out of the eighth playoff spot in the East. Anthony has faced scrutiny in recent years, and Jackson has been one of Anthony’s biggest critics.

>An NBA source>

^This means nothing. Even if Stevens disagreed with Ainge (or vice versa) on something, I trust neither would be sharing his opinion with ppl who might leak it to the media.

[crimson_stallion]

I really don't see how the flexibility and chemistry arguments hold much weight. 

First point - we have never landed a star playerin free agency using cap space.  The best we did was Al Horford this year, and he's a fringe star.  Greg Monroe is a fringe star and he chose Milwaukee over us.  Lemarcus Aldridge chose San Antonio over us.  Kevin Durant choose Golden State over us, even after we met his prerequisite (adding Horford). 

My point here is that having cap space is nice - it makes you a player in free agency.  It gives you the opportunity to TRY and sign a key free agent.  But there are maybe 3 or 4 star free agents any given off-season, and 30 teams fighting for them (including their own teams, who can usually offer them the most money).  As exciting as it is to have cap space, the actually probability of adding a big name free agent is always going to be pretty darn slim.

Secondly - as far as I'm aware, we won't axtually have cap space for a max free agent next year unless we let Amir walk (at the very least - possibly Olynyk too).  Like Crowder, Amir and Olynyk are key "chemistry" part of this team (as any advanced stat will show) so the idea of adding a big name free agent without having to lose anybody in the process really isn't realistic.  This season for example we added Horford, but we lost Sully and Turner.  Now in order to get Horford, we had to hold off on signing Turner an Sully.  While waiting to hear Horford's answer, Turner signed elsewhere.  What if Horford decided to stay in Atlanta?  We'd have lost Turner, we'd have been forced to re-sign Sully, and we'd have gained nothing. We just lucked out that Horford DID sign here. Even with Horford signing - we've turned out better overall, but there have been times we've really felt the loss of those  Turner and/or Sully. 

So the idea of adding a guy like Griffin or Hayward in free agency without losing anybody is  unrealistic.

Now on that point - we can give up 'chemistry' players like Amir and Olynyk next year so we can free the cap space to HOPEFULLY sign a star (like Griffin) or a fringe-star (like Hayward). We run the risk of letting those guys walk, coming up short of free agency, and taking a step backwards.

Or we can give up one or two 'chemistry' players right now in a trade, and then we GUARANTEE that we get a star player (like Melo) or a fringe star (like Vucevic) back.

Also I would like to again re-emphasise that if we can get Melo at a somewhat reasonable cost, then there is nothing stopping us from continuing to pursue additional trades.

My first proposal would be trading Amir, Crowder, Young, 2017 Celtics 1st, 2019 Celtics 1st to New York for Carmelo Anthony. 

My second proposal would be trading Zeller, Rozier and the Memphis 1st to Orlando for Vucevic.

Our roster becomes:

Vucevic
Horford
Carmelo
Bradley
Thomas
Smart
Green
Brown
Jerebko
Olynyk
Mickey
Jackson

That is enough talent to beat any team in this league in a 7 game series - including the Cavs, Spurs and even the Warriors.    And we don't need to give up a single Brooklyn pick.

And if a really desirable playing comes up as a trade option later down the track (e.g. Cousins, Anthony Davis, Jimmy Butler) we sill have a plethora of trade assets in Vucevic, Smart, Brown, Bradley and both Brooklyn picks...so we aren't sacrificing any flexibility. 

If no other trade options come up, then we get to use the Brooklyn picks to potentially draft a pair of top 5 picks who can then grow (along with Jaylen Brown) while getting playoff experiende on a championship caliber roster.

i don't really see the downside here.

Wow. Flexibility dont hold much weight? You don't think the Nets needed flexibility?  How about Detroit? How do you think Houston got Harden? Hell its not even clear if Carmelo makes us better instead of Crowder. Have you seen Melo play? Our issues are rebounding and defense, how the heck does Melo help that? No way is Melo worth two firsts. Id rather offer these for Hayward or Butler than Melo.

Our three best defensive players would be Avery Bradley, Al Horford, and Marcus Smart.  Lets take a look at the other elite teams we are trying to beat.  Does Cleveland have three players who are better then those guys defensively?  Nope.  How about Golden State? Nope.  How about the Spurs?  Nope.  Clippers?  No.

Hint - of all the elite teams in the league right now, none of them are studded with defensive stars.  They are offensive oriented teams. 

Now, on to the rebounding argument.

Part of my proposal includes adding Vucevic in a separate trade. Vucevic is a 7'0", 265 pound monster with a 7'5" wingspan.  He's averaged 15 points (on 50% shooting) and 10 rebounds in 30 minutes for his career so far...and he's only 26 so he's still got upside.  Rebounding problem solved.

I think that part is debatable. When locked in, Durant, Draymond and Klay are just as good defenders when compared to Bradley, Smart, and Horford.

And what is your love with Vucevic. He's a great rebounder, but does he honestly make our team that much better?

On the first point - I disagree.  Draymond Green, I agree he is at least on par with Horford defensively, probably better.  Klay Thompson?  He's decent, but I don't believe he's as good defensively as Smart or Bradley.  Durant?  Every time I've seen him play his defense has been embarrassingly bad.  As in 'worse the Carmelo Anthony' bad.

On the second point - yes, absolutely.  Is Vucevic a big star player?  Well, no.  But our second starting big man is Amir Johnson, who is 6'9" and averages 6 points and 4 rebounds in 20 minutes a game.

I really like Amir when he's on the court, but the problems are:

1) He's not on the court often enough
2) He's almost a complete non-factor on offense
3) He and Horford are too small to constitute a stating front-court
4) He and Horford rebound too poorly to constitute a starting front-court
5) He and Horford have too weak an inside presence to constitute a starting front-court

Now personally I would prefer Greg Monroe. I feel he's a more talented player, and I feel his post game and his ability to draw fouls would be more valuable to our team then Vucevic's offensive game (which is more perimeter oriented, much like Horford).  But Monroe is also making about $5m more per year, which means we'd need to give up an extra rotation player (probably Jerebko) in order to match salary, and I don't really want to leave us that short handed.

Vucevic is a seven footer who has averaged 17.5 points, 9.9 rebounds and 2.5 assists over the past three seasons.  He's not an all-star, but he's a very talented and massively underrated big man who is physically huge, and is still young enough to continue improving. 

I recommending watching some of his highlight videos on YouTube if you aren't familar with his game - he has some really nice moves in the high post and an extremely smooth jumper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0fYxYvH1iw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoK9j15jzT8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZNi1xSb4QU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3Hty1KVkB0

I can certainly see why Danny is intrigued given he's 26 years old, Orlando have too many bigs, and he's only making $11M a year over the next 3 years - I.e. he's actually making less money then Amir Johnson.

With Vucevic at center we'd get a major offensive boost, our rebounding issues would be as good as gone, and Horford could slip back in to his more natural PF position. 

Vucevic also is a good passer (career 2.5 APG), has an outstanding midrange jumper (career 45% from 10-16 feet) and can occasionally step out and hit the open three (career 30% from three) so he fits Brad Steven's system pretty much to perfection.

My only criticisms are that he doesn't seem to play in the post enough (he is a pretty skilled post scorer, but only 22% of his shots came inside 3 feet) and like Horford he doesn't draw nearly enough fouls (16% FTR). 

No matter how you look at it though, he's a very talented young big man who could make a major impact on this team.   A frontcourt of Horford / Vucevic would be very tough for opponents to defend - especially smaller teams like Cleveland and Golden State. 

Imagine a 7 foot Kevin Love with a less developed three point shot - that's pretty much Vucevic in a nutshell. 

If you could get him cheap (like Zeller, Rozier and a pick) I can't fathom why you wouldn't jump at the chance.  If you could add him AND Carmelo, then we would be up there with Golden State as one of the two or three most offensively dominant teams in the NBA.

[Monkhouse]

On the first point - I disagree.  Draymond Green, I agree he is at least on par with Horford defensively, probably better.  Klay Thompson?  He's decent, but I don't believe he's as good defensively as Smart or Bradley.  Durant?  Every time I've seen him play his defense has been embarrassingly bad.  As in 'worse the Carmelo Anthony' bad.

On the second point - yes, absolutely.  Is Vucevic a big star player?  Well, no.  But our second starting big man is Amir Johnson, who is 6'9" and averages 6 points and 4 rebounds in 20 minutes a game.

Draymond Green is definitely better than Horford defensively. We're talking about runner DPOY every year right after Leonard, Gasol, etc. Horford is great, and averaging career highs in blocks, which everyone was so amazed about, but Green is the quintessential stretch forward that can defend 1-5 spots.

I don't think you're also giving Klay Thompson any credit either. I've raved for years about how sound fundamentally Klay Thompson is defensively. He's not as much as a ball hawk as Bradley, but he's definitely just almost as good on defense in terms of keeping up with his man even when beat like Bradley, smart when going around picks, and just uses intelligence and his size to contest shots without fouling.

And as for Kevin Durant, no you're completely wrong. I really don't think you're really understanding the value the GSW warriors players have on defense in terms of versatility, match ups, and using overall team weak side sufficiently to make up for their mishaps on down low post defense.

Opponents attacking Durant at the rim shoot 48.8 percent, a generous percentage given how his length alters opponent’s shooting. For context, they shoot 44.8 percent when attacking DeAndre Jordan at the rim, 45.3 percent when attacking Dwight Howard, 46.7 percent when attacking Hassan Whiteside, and 49.4 percent when attacking Anthony Davis.

He's always been touted as a bad defender, but that was because he never really knew how to use his length. Now that he's also put more emphasis on defense, he's actually been averaging career highs in blocks 1.7 BPG, and people are starting to notice how better he is as an efficient two way superstar.

He was always the 50/40/90 guy, but now he's putting up more steals, and blocks.

Durant’s 1.5 blocks per game are a career-high and he has 16 games with at least two blocks this season, according to Basketball-Reference. That’s tied with Bucks’ shot-blocker John Henson and ahead of guys like LeBron James (four), Andre Drummond (nine), Karl-Anthony Towns (12), Dwight Howard (15), and Bismack Biyombo (15).

If Durant was so Carmelo bad, and he's clearly seeing healthy starting minutes, then losing Bogut, and important bench pieces, you'd think the GSW would not be ranked top 5 in defense still.

And not taking account Durant is an impressive defensive rebounder.

I think if healthy, Klay, Durant, and Draymond are at least on par defensively as Smart, Bradley, and Horford.

I also think Horford's defense is overrated, and agreed with many users here that he's better suited off at the 5. I just don't see his length being able to make up for his declining athleticism.

__

Now onto Vucevic, I'm on board for getting him as long as he comes cheap just like Carmelo.

I'm not convinced he's even going to be that much of a factor since his defense is notoriously bad, and even though he's a great passer, from the games I've seen of him, I've seen poor court awareness, and inability to make simple passes out of double teams.

[crimson_stallion]

On the first point - I disagree.  Draymond Green, I agree he is at least on par with Horford defensively, probably better.  Klay Thompson?  He's decent, but I don't believe he's as good defensively as Smart or Bradley.  Durant?  Every time I've seen him play his defense has been embarrassingly bad.  As in 'worse the Carmelo Anthony' bad.

On the second point - yes, absolutely.  Is Vucevic a big star player?  Well, no.  But our second starting big man is Amir Johnson, who is 6'9" and averages 6 points and 4 rebounds in 20 minutes a game.

Draymond Green is definitely better than Horford defensively. We're talking about runner DPOY every year right after Leonard, Gasol, etc. Horford is great, and averaging career highs in blocks, which everyone was so amazed about, but Green is the quintessential stretch forward that can defend 1-5 spots.

I don't think you're also giving Klay Thompson any credit either. I've raved for years about how sound fundamentally Klay Thompson is defensively. He's not as much as a ball hawk as Bradley, but he's definitely just almost as good on defense in terms of keeping up with his man even when beat like Bradley, smart when going around picks, and just uses intelligence and his size to contest shots without fouling.

And as for Kevin Durant, no you're completely wrong. I really don't think you're really understanding the value the GSW warriors players have on defense in terms of versatility, match ups, and using overall team weak side sufficiently to make up for their mishaps on down low post defense.

Opponents attacking Durant at the rim shoot 48.8 percent, a generous percentage given how his length alters opponent’s shooting. For context, they shoot 44.8 percent when attacking DeAndre Jordan at the rim, 45.3 percent when attacking Dwight Howard, 46.7 percent when attacking Hassan Whiteside, and 49.4 percent when attacking Anthony Davis.

He's always been touted as a bad defender, but that was because he never really knew how to use his length. Now that he's also put more emphasis on defense, he's actually been averaging career highs in blocks 1.7 BPG, and people are starting to notice how better he is as an efficient two way superstar.

He was always the 50/40/90 guy, but now he's putting up more steals, and blocks.

Durant’s 1.5 blocks per game are a career-high and he has 16 games with at least two blocks this season, according to Basketball-Reference. That’s tied with Bucks’ shot-blocker John Henson and ahead of guys like LeBron James (four), Andre Drummond (nine), Karl-Anthony Towns (12), Dwight Howard (15), and Bismack Biyombo (15).

If Durant was so Carmelo bad, and he's clearly seeing healthy starting minutes, then losing Bogut, and important bench pieces, you'd think the GSW would not be ranked top 5 in defense still.

And not taking account Durant is an impressive defensive rebounder.

I think if healthy, Klay, Durant, and Draymond are at least on par defensively as Smart, Bradley, and Horford.

I also think Horford's defense is overrated, and agreed with many users here that he's better suited off at the 5. I just don't see his length being able to make up for his declining athleticism.

__

Now onto Vucevic, I'm on board for getting him as long as he comes cheap just like Carmelo.

I'm not convinced he's even going to be that much of a factor since his defense is notoriously bad, and even though he's a great passer, from the games I've seen of him, I've seen poor court awareness, and inability to make simple passes out of double teams.

We will have to agree to disagree. 

I know that Durant's defensive stats have typically been solid on paper, but whenever I've actually watched him play I've seen nothing to back that.  He's looked constantly lost, given up on plays, questionable effort levels, struggled to keep up with guys, etc.

I haven't seen him play this year really, but whenever I saw him play in OKC prior to this season, that's what I've always seen.

Klay Thomson I kind of see as a Paul Pierce or Kelly Olynyk type of defender.  Solid fundamentally and does a good of team defense thanks to fairly high BBIQ, but not standout one-on-one defender and he's not locking anybody down.   He's not the type of player you put on Lebron James in the hope of shutting him down, for example. 

That's I guess the point I'm trying to make.  Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart are the type of special one-on-one defenders who really can shut guys down.  Bradley in particular has been known to frustrate and almost completely remove star offensive players from games with his pressure, and I feel like that's very valuable in the playoffs when you are ALWAYS facing star offensive players.

Horford is really more of a solid positional / team defender, although he does do a pretty good job when matched up 1-on-1 in the paint, even against bigger and more talented bigs.  I've seen him shut down some pretty impressive big men before.  I think his ability to defend quicker perimeter players is overrated, but he does do a solid job of anticipating and moving over to cut them off.  Once they get a step on him though, he's gone. 

I guess it all depends on the individual defense vs team defense argument.

Bradley I feel is an elite individual defender, and a solid team defender. 
Smart I feel is a good individual defender and an excellent team defender. 
Horford I feel is a good individual defender and an excellent team defender. 
Amir Johnson i would say is a very good individual defender and an very good team defender
Crowder I would say is an excellent individual defender and a solid team defender

That's just how I see it though.

[celtics2030]

On the first point - I disagree.  Draymond Green, I agree he is at least on par with Horford defensively, probably better.  Klay Thompson?  He's decent, but I don't believe he's as good defensively as Smart or Bradley.  Durant?  Every time I've seen him play his defense has been embarrassingly bad.  As in 'worse the Carmelo Anthony' bad.

On the second point - yes, absolutely.  Is Vucevic a big star player?  Well, no.  But our second starting big man is Amir Johnson, who is 6'9" and averages 6 points and 4 rebounds in 20 minutes a game.

Draymond Green is definitely better than Horford defensively. We're talking about runner DPOY every year right after Leonard, Gasol, etc. Horford is great, and averaging career highs in blocks, which everyone was so amazed about, but Green is the quintessential stretch forward that can defend 1-5 spots.

I don't think you're also giving Klay Thompson any credit either. I've raved for years about how sound fundamentally Klay Thompson is defensively. He's not as much as a ball hawk as Bradley, but he's definitely just almost as good on defense in terms of keeping up with his man even when beat like Bradley, smart when going around picks, and just uses intelligence and his size to contest shots without fouling.

And as for Kevin Durant, no you're completely wrong. I really don't think you're really understanding the value the GSW warriors players have on defense in terms of versatility, match ups, and using overall team weak side sufficiently to make up for their mishaps on down low post defense.

Opponents attacking Durant at the rim shoot 48.8 percent, a generous percentage given how his length alters opponent’s shooting. For context, they shoot 44.8 percent when attacking DeAndre Jordan at the rim, 45.3 percent when attacking Dwight Howard, 46.7 percent when attacking Hassan Whiteside, and 49.4 percent when attacking Anthony Davis.

He's always been touted as a bad defender, but that was because he never really knew how to use his length. Now that he's also put more emphasis on defense, he's actually been averaging career highs in blocks 1.7 BPG, and people are starting to notice how better he is as an efficient two way superstar.

He was always the 50/40/90 guy, but now he's putting up more steals, and blocks.

Durant’s 1.5 blocks per game are a career-high and he has 16 games with at least two blocks this season, according to Basketball-Reference. That’s tied with Bucks’ shot-blocker John Henson and ahead of guys like LeBron James (four), Andre Drummond (nine), Karl-Anthony Towns (12), Dwight Howard (15), and Bismack Biyombo (15).

If Durant was so Carmelo bad, and he's clearly seeing healthy starting minutes, then losing Bogut, and important bench pieces, you'd think the GSW would not be ranked top 5 in defense still.

And not taking account Durant is an impressive defensive rebounder.

I think if healthy, Klay, Durant, and Draymond are at least on par defensively as Smart, Bradley, and Horford.

I also think Horford's defense is overrated, and agreed with many users here that he's better suited off at the 5. I just don't see his length being able to make up for his declining athleticism.

__

Now onto Vucevic, I'm on board for getting him as long as he comes cheap just like Carmelo.

I'm not convinced he's even going to be that much of a factor since his defense is notoriously bad, and even though he's a great passer, from the games I've seen of him, I've seen poor court awareness, and inability to make simple passes out of double teams.

We will have to agree to disagree. 

I know that Durant's defensive stats have typically been solid on paper, but whenever I've actually watched him play I've seen nothing to back that.  He's looked constantly lost, given up on plays, questionable effort levels, struggled to keep up with guys, etc.

I haven't seen him play this year really, but whenever I saw him play in OKC prior to this season, that's what I've always seen.

Klay Thomson I kind of see as a Paul Pierce or Kelly Olynyk type of defender.  Solid fundamentally and does a good of team defense thanks to fairly high BBIQ, but not standout one-on-one defender and he's not locking anybody down.   He's not the type of player you put on Lebron James in the hope of shutting him down, for example. 

That's I guess the point I'm trying to make.  Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart are the type of special one-on-one defenders who really can shut guys down.  Bradley in particular has been known to frustrate and almost completely remove star offensive players from games with his pressure, and I feel like that's very valuable in the playoffs when you are ALWAYS facing star offensive players.

Horford is really more of a solid positional / team defender, although he does do a pretty good job when matched up 1-on-1 in the paint, even against bigger and more talented bigs.  I've seen him shut down some pretty impressive big men before.  I think his ability to defend quicker perimeter players is overrated, but he does do a solid job of anticipating and moving over to cut them off.  Once they get a step on him though, he's gone. 

I guess it all depends on the individual defense vs team defense argument.

Bradley I feel is an elite individual defender, and a solid team defender. 
Smart I feel is a good individual defender and an excellent team defender. 
Horford I feel is a good individual defender and an excellent team defender. 
Amir Johnson i would say is a very good individual defender and an very good team defender
Crowder I would say is an excellent individual defender and a solid team defender

That's just how I see it though.

Yet they are a horrific defensive team, horrifyingly scary.

Something is not adding up.

[nickagneta]

Ainge said no....he isnt coming here.

Probably not, but I expect there's a price Ainge would accept.  It's just a good deal lower than Phil is asking right now.

Not sure when Danny has ever said yes to a first trade proposal...not even the IT to Boston trade.

Deadline is 23rd feb. Plenty of time for Phil to study and fall in love with our scrubs.

Did anyone else see the report that the Knicks had scouts at our bucks game the other night?
They were probably thinking..'is this James Young guy as terrible as everyone says he is?'.

Aren't you both assuming that there is a price where Ainge says yes? There can be arguments made, good arguments, that that just isn't true.

[Eddie20]

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2017/01/29/could-celtics-become-part-carmelo-anthony-trade/WN2SEabku427qw0sGxbuPK/story.html

MILWAUKEE — The Knicks haven’t given up hope on including the Celtics as a partner in a potential deal for Carmelo Anthony, sending a scout to Saturday’s Celtics-Bucks game.

While Celtics management told the Knicks they aren’t interested in the nine-time All-Star, the Knicks are pushing to move Anthony, according to an NBA source, and they’re intrigued by some of the Celtics’ players.

A source indicated that Knicks president Phil Jackson has instructed management to move Anthony, who has a no-trade clause but included the Celtics as one of the teams for whom he’d waive the clause. Boston could become part of a potential three-team deal that would send Anthony to another club, perhaps the Clippers.

An NBA source said Celtics coach Brad Stevens would embrace coaching Anthony, but president of basketball operations Danny Ainge has rejected any deal. That hasn’t stopped the Knicks from scouting Celtics players just in case Boston is willing to become part of a trade.

Anthony is averaging 22.6 points, 6.2 rebounds and 3.0 assists this season for the disappointing Knicks (21-27), who are two games out of the eighth playoff spot in the East. Anthony has faced scrutiny in recent years, and Jackson has been one of Anthony’s biggest critics.

>An NBA source>

^This means nothing. Even if Stevens disagreed with Ainge (or vice versa) on something, I trust neither would be sharing his opinion with ppl who might leak it to the media.

You're right. The Horford signing came out of nowhere. No rumors of our interest were anywhere. I'm sure all the alleged interest in Hayward is a figment of someone's imagination too.

[tankcity!]

On the first point - I disagree.  Draymond Green, I agree he is at least on par with Horford defensively, probably better.  Klay Thompson?  He's decent, but I don't believe he's as good defensively as Smart or Bradley.  Durant?  Every time I've seen him play his defense has been embarrassingly bad.  As in 'worse the Carmelo Anthony' bad.

On the second point - yes, absolutely.  Is Vucevic a big star player?  Well, no.  But our second starting big man is Amir Johnson, who is 6'9" and averages 6 points and 4 rebounds in 20 minutes a game.

Draymond Green is definitely better than Horford defensively. We're talking about runner DPOY every year right after Leonard, Gasol, etc. Horford is great, and averaging career highs in blocks, which everyone was so amazed about, but Green is the quintessential stretch forward that can defend 1-5 spots.

I don't think you're also giving Klay Thompson any credit either. I've raved for years about how sound fundamentally Klay Thompson is defensively. He's not as much as a ball hawk as Bradley, but he's definitely just almost as good on defense in terms of keeping up with his man even when beat like Bradley, smart when going around picks, and just uses intelligence and his size to contest shots without fouling.

And as for Kevin Durant, no you're completely wrong. I really don't think you're really understanding the value the GSW warriors players have on defense in terms of versatility, match ups, and using overall team weak side sufficiently to make up for their mishaps on down low post defense.

Opponents attacking Durant at the rim shoot 48.8 percent, a generous percentage given how his length alters opponent’s shooting. For context, they shoot 44.8 percent when attacking DeAndre Jordan at the rim, 45.3 percent when attacking Dwight Howard, 46.7 percent when attacking Hassan Whiteside, and 49.4 percent when attacking Anthony Davis.

He's always been touted as a bad defender, but that was because he never really knew how to use his length. Now that he's also put more emphasis on defense, he's actually been averaging career highs in blocks 1.7 BPG, and people are starting to notice how better he is as an efficient two way superstar.

He was always the 50/40/90 guy, but now he's putting up more steals, and blocks.

Durant’s 1.5 blocks per game are a career-high and he has 16 games with at least two blocks this season, according to Basketball-Reference. That’s tied with Bucks’ shot-blocker John Henson and ahead of guys like LeBron James (four), Andre Drummond (nine), Karl-Anthony Towns (12), Dwight Howard (15), and Bismack Biyombo (15).

If Durant was so Carmelo bad, and he's clearly seeing healthy starting minutes, then losing Bogut, and important bench pieces, you'd think the GSW would not be ranked top 5 in defense still.

And not taking account Durant is an impressive defensive rebounder.

I think if healthy, Klay, Durant, and Draymond are at least on par defensively as Smart, Bradley, and Horford.

I also think Horford's defense is overrated, and agreed with many users here that he's better suited off at the 5. I just don't see his length being able to make up for his declining athleticism.

__

Now onto Vucevic, I'm on board for getting him as long as he comes cheap just like Carmelo.

I'm not convinced he's even going to be that much of a factor since his defense is notoriously bad, and even though he's a great passer, from the games I've seen of him, I've seen poor court awareness, and inability to make simple passes out of double teams.

We will have to agree to disagree. 

I know that Durant's defensive stats have typically been solid on paper, but whenever I've actually watched him play I've seen nothing to back that.  He's looked constantly lost, given up on plays, questionable effort levels, struggled to keep up with guys, etc.

I haven't seen him play this year really, but whenever I saw him play in OKC prior to this season, that's what I've always seen.

Klay Thomson I kind of see as a Paul Pierce or Kelly Olynyk type of defender.  Solid fundamentally and does a good of team defense thanks to fairly high BBIQ, but not standout one-on-one defender and he's not locking anybody down.   He's not the type of player you put on Lebron James in the hope of shutting him down, for example. 

That's I guess the point I'm trying to make.  Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart are the type of special one-on-one defenders who really can shut guys down.  Bradley in particular has been known to frustrate and almost completely remove star offensive players from games with his pressure, and I feel like that's very valuable in the playoffs when you are ALWAYS facing star offensive players.

Horford is really more of a solid positional / team defender, although he does do a pretty good job when matched up 1-on-1 in the paint, even against bigger and more talented bigs.  I've seen him shut down some pretty impressive big men before.  I think his ability to defend quicker perimeter players is overrated, but he does do a solid job of anticipating and moving over to cut them off.  Once they get a step on him though, he's gone. 

I guess it all depends on the individual defense vs team defense argument.

Bradley I feel is an elite individual defender, and a solid team defender. 
Smart I feel is a good individual defender and an excellent team defender. 
Horford I feel is a good individual defender and an excellent team defender. 
Amir Johnson i would say is a very good individual defender and an very good team defender
Crowder I would say is an excellent individual defender and a solid team defender

That's just how I see it though.

I don't know what you're seeing. Look at the Celtic's D results this year by itself, they're not the impact defenders you're making them out to be. If you don't think Durant is an exceptional defender, I think you should rewatch the playoffs last year. Him and Westbrook were beasts on that end.

And I've also seen Smart being burnt on multiple occasions this year on D. Please refer to the Wizards game just a few games ago. He's not the elite defender you're making him out to be. He's a great defender, but there are like only 3-5 impact defenders in the league today.

[CoachBo]

Ainge said no....he isnt coming here.

Probably not, but I expect there's a price Ainge would accept.  It's just a good deal lower than Phil is asking right now.

Not sure when Danny has ever said yes to a first trade proposal...not even the IT to Boston trade.

Deadline is 23rd feb. Plenty of time for Phil to study and fall in love with our scrubs.

Did anyone else see the report that the Knicks had scouts at our bucks game the other night?
They were probably thinking..'is this James Young guy as terrible as everyone says he is?'.

Aren't you both assuming that there is a price where Ainge says yes? There can be arguments made, good arguments, that that just isn't true.

Ainge isn't going to trade for a ball-stopper who can't - and won't - guard a chair, regardless of price.

[konkmv]

I am the only one to preffer melo than butler... i think butler is playing for himself..only... i think melo costs less, has proven he is a good teammate at the olympics, wants a championship more and fits the bigger plan... keep the team at playoff position creating a winning culture until lebron is out of the picture in 2-3 years... and then strike for the championship... smart brown and the 2 nets picks should be untradeable

[TrueFan]

Ainge said no....he isnt coming here.

Probably not, but I expect there's a price Ainge would accept.  It's just a good deal lower than Phil is asking right now.

Not sure when Danny has ever said yes to a first trade proposal...not even the IT to Boston trade.

Deadline is 23rd feb. Plenty of time for Phil to study and fall in love with our scrubs.

Did anyone else see the report that the Knicks had scouts at our bucks game the other night?
They were probably thinking..'is this James Young guy as terrible as everyone says he is?'.

Aren't you both assuming that there is a price where Ainge says yes? There can be arguments made, good arguments, that that just isn't true.

Ainge isn't going to trade for a ball-stopper who can't - and won't - guard a chair, regardless of price.

I think you play Melo at the four for that specific reason. The biggest concern at that point is Melo getting stuck on switches from the high pick and roll but don't we have that problem with all of our bigs?

[bogg]

Ainge said no....he isnt coming here.

Probably not, but I expect there's a price Ainge would accept.  It's just a good deal lower than Phil is asking right now.

Not sure when Danny has ever said yes to a first trade proposal...not even the IT to Boston trade.

Deadline is 23rd feb. Plenty of time for Phil to study and fall in love with our scrubs.

Did anyone else see the report that the Knicks had scouts at our bucks game the other night?
They were probably thinking..'is this James Young guy as terrible as everyone says he is?'.

Aren't you both assuming that there is a price where Ainge says yes? There can be arguments made, good arguments, that that just isn't true.

Ainge isn't going to trade for a ball-stopper who can't - and won't - guard a chair, regardless of price.

....except he traded for Isaiah, when Isaiah's defensive numbers have been worse than Carmelo's since he came into the league (career -2.8 defensive box plus/minus to Carmelo's career -1.2) and is quoted as wanting to find a go-to scorer to pair with Isaiah. From prior to last season:

Here's what Ainge said about that: "We often talk about transcendent players and stars, but I think the hardest skill to find in our league is guys that can score in the fourth quarter, the last six minutes of the game type of scorers. Usually the offensive patterns don't score baskets at that time, usually it's the individuals and the talent and I think that's always a priority, regardless of need by position. But those kinds of players are hard to find and I think that Isaiah is our best at that right now, so it'd be nice to have one or two more of those before the season starts next year, and ideally at other positions."

http://www.celticsblog.com/2015/4/30/8525253/danny-ainge-says-the-boston-celtics-want-players-with-a-knack-for-scoring-late-in-games

....you can find defenders to complement scorers. Given that the likely ultimate prize - Jimmy Butler - is an all-defense guy and Horford's solid on that end as well, it's not like the lineup would be a wreck. 

[Moranis]

I am the only one to preffer melo than butler... i think butler is playing for himself..only... i think melo costs less, has proven he is a good teammate at the olympics, wants a championship more and fits the bigger plan... keep the team at playoff position creating a winning culture until lebron is out of the picture in 2-3 years... and then strike for the championship... smart brown and the 2 nets picks should be untradeable

given the cost, I'd also much rather acquire Anthony.

[TrueFan]

On the first point - I disagree.  Draymond Green, I agree he is at least on par with Horford defensively, probably better.  Klay Thompson?  He's decent, but I don't believe he's as good defensively as Smart or Bradley.  Durant?  Every time I've seen him play his defense has been embarrassingly bad.  As in 'worse the Carmelo Anthony' bad.

On the second point - yes, absolutely.  Is Vucevic a big star player?  Well, no.  But our second starting big man is Amir Johnson, who is 6'9" and averages 6 points and 4 rebounds in 20 minutes a game.

Draymond Green is definitely better than Horford defensively. We're talking about runner DPOY every year right after Leonard, Gasol, etc. Horford is great, and averaging career highs in blocks, which everyone was so amazed about, but Green is the quintessential stretch forward that can defend 1-5 spots.

I don't think you're also giving Klay Thompson any credit either. I've raved for years about how sound fundamentally Klay Thompson is defensively. He's not as much as a ball hawk as Bradley, but he's definitely just almost as good on defense in terms of keeping up with his man even when beat like Bradley, smart when going around picks, and just uses intelligence and his size to contest shots without fouling.

And as for Kevin Durant, no you're completely wrong. I really don't think you're really understanding the value the GSW warriors players have on defense in terms of versatility, match ups, and using overall team weak side sufficiently to make up for their mishaps on down low post defense.

Opponents attacking Durant at the rim shoot 48.8 percent, a generous percentage given how his length alters opponent’s shooting. For context, they shoot 44.8 percent when attacking DeAndre Jordan at the rim, 45.3 percent when attacking Dwight Howard, 46.7 percent when attacking Hassan Whiteside, and 49.4 percent when attacking Anthony Davis.

He's always been touted as a bad defender, but that was because he never really knew how to use his length. Now that he's also put more emphasis on defense, he's actually been averaging career highs in blocks 1.7 BPG, and people are starting to notice how better he is as an efficient two way superstar.

He was always the 50/40/90 guy, but now he's putting up more steals, and blocks.

Durant’s 1.5 blocks per game are a career-high and he has 16 games with at least two blocks this season, according to Basketball-Reference. That’s tied with Bucks’ shot-blocker John Henson and ahead of guys like LeBron James (four), Andre Drummond (nine), Karl-Anthony Towns (12), Dwight Howard (15), and Bismack Biyombo (15).

If Durant was so Carmelo bad, and he's clearly seeing healthy starting minutes, then losing Bogut, and important bench pieces, you'd think the GSW would not be ranked top 5 in defense still.

And not taking account Durant is an impressive defensive rebounder.

I think if healthy, Klay, Durant, and Draymond are at least on par defensively as Smart, Bradley, and Horford.

I also think Horford's defense is overrated, and agreed with many users here that he's better suited off at the 5. I just don't see his length being able to make up for his declining athleticism.

__

Now onto Vucevic, I'm on board for getting him as long as he comes cheap just like Carmelo.

I'm not convinced he's even going to be that much of a factor since his defense is notoriously bad, and even though he's a great passer, from the games I've seen of him, I've seen poor court awareness, and inability to make simple passes out of double teams.

We will have to agree to disagree. 

I know that Durant's defensive stats have typically been solid on paper, but whenever I've actually watched him play I've seen nothing to back that.  He's looked constantly lost, given up on plays, questionable effort levels, struggled to keep up with guys, etc.

I haven't seen him play this year really, but whenever I saw him play in OKC prior to this season, that's what I've always seen.

Klay Thomson I kind of see as a Paul Pierce or Kelly Olynyk type of defender.  Solid fundamentally and does a good of team defense thanks to fairly high BBIQ, but not standout one-on-one defender and he's not locking anybody down.   He's not the type of player you put on Lebron James in the hope of shutting him down, for example. 

That's I guess the point I'm trying to make.  Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart are the type of special one-on-one defenders who really can shut guys down.  Bradley in particular has been known to frustrate and almost completely remove star offensive players from games with his pressure, and I feel like that's very valuable in the playoffs when you are ALWAYS facing star offensive players.

Horford is really more of a solid positional / team defender, although he does do a pretty good job when matched up 1-on-1 in the paint, even against bigger and more talented bigs.  I've seen him shut down some pretty impressive big men before.  I think his ability to defend quicker perimeter players is overrated, but he does do a solid job of anticipating and moving over to cut them off.  Once they get a step on him though, he's gone. 

I guess it all depends on the individual defense vs team defense argument.

Bradley I feel is an elite individual defender, and a solid team defender. 
Smart I feel is a good individual defender and an excellent team defender. 
Horford I feel is a good individual defender and an excellent team defender. 
Amir Johnson i would say is a very good individual defender and an very good team defender
Crowder I would say is an excellent individual defender and a solid team defender

That's just how I see it though.

I don't know what you're seeing. Look at the Celtic's D results this year by itself, they're not the impact defenders you're making them out to be. If you don't think Durant is an exceptional defender, I think you should rewatch the playoffs last year. Him and Westbrook were beasts on that end.

And I've also seen Smart being burnt on multiple occasions this year on D. Please refer to the Wizards game just a few games ago. He's not the elite defender you're making him out to be. He's a great defender, but there are like only 3-5 impact defenders in the league today.

I think you are being a little unfair to Smart. He does fight over more picks then any other guard I can think of. The biggest problem is teams will just rub him off a second. The other problem is offensive systems are just getting too good. Once we hit the playoffs refs tend to allow some hand checking. I expect Smart to have a bigger impact once the refs start letting things go in the playoffs.

[Smartacus]

I am the only one to preffer melo than butler... i think butler is playing for himself..only... i think melo costs less, has proven he is a good teammate at the olympics, wants a championship more and fits the bigger plan... keep the team at playoff position creating a winning culture until lebron is out of the picture in 2-3 years... and then strike for the championship... smart brown and the 2 nets picks should be untradeable

given the cost, I'd also much rather acquire Anthony.

The cost changed everything about the Melo situation. Back when he was being talked about with for multiple Brooklyn Picks Jae Crowder and Jaylen Brown you'd never even consider it. Now when you realize that our worst low ball offer beats the [heck] out of anything the Clippers could muster and that suddenly the overpriced chucker looks more like an undervalued commodity. No way I'd rather sell off half our team for Jimmy Butler when we could acquire Melo for a fraction of the cost.

If Jimmy doesn't end up being the best fit in Boston we just sold off our most talented assets and we are now maxed out in our potential. Carmelo Anthony might not be the player that Butler is now, but if acquiring Anthony would mean keeping 2 of Jae Crowder, Jaylen Brown, and the 2017 Brooklyn pick its clearly the best deal out there.