Report: Melo would waive no-trade for C's; Stevens would like him, Ainge doesn't

[cousytoheinsohn]

I don't believe for a second that Boston is a firm no on Melo, because of Melo.  He's an all-star level player who is averaging 22.6 points, 6.2 rebounds, 3 assists with 43%/37%/83% shooting.... shooting percentages up to 46% from the field and 42% from three this month.   

It's not the age.

This is the same GM who gave up a top 5 pick, a starter-level 29 year old (Wally) and a quality 23 year old prospect averaging 12 points, 4 assists and 3 rebounds (Delonte) for a 32 year old Ray Allen when Ray was coming off an injury-riddled season putting up Melo-esque 44% shooting with 37% from three.  It's not like Ray was known for his defense either.

I've said it before, but the modern equivalent of that Ray trade would be trading Jaylen Brown (top 5 pick - though most think he'd be picked no higher than 7th in this upcoming draft), Amir Johnson (the 29 year old starter) and Kelly Olynyk (the quality youngish prospect) for 32 year old Melo.   We'd presumably get Melo for significantly less than that.

I've also long disagreed with the idea Melo is inefficient or a career loser.   Neither has any basis in reality.  This is a couple years old now, but here's what I said on this subject back in 2015: 

This idea that he's inefficient is nonsense.  He's a fairly efficient go-to scorer that you can absolutely build an offense around.  He's also known as one of the most clutch end-of-game performers in the entire league (frequently ranked towards the top in 82games sortable clutch stats).    The idea that he's a perennial loser is also equally nonsensical.  While Melo was a Freshman at Syracuse leading them to the NCAA Championship, the Nuggets were on their way to a 17 win season.  After drafting Melo, the Nuggets proceeded to make the playoffs 7 years in a row with between 43-54 wins each season (culminating with the Nuggets making the Western Conference finals in 2009).  Melo's arrival in New York saw them go from a 29 win team to three straight playoff appearances.  Think about this when you look at our own "star" player Rajon Rondo and his failure to thus-far lead a team even to a .500 record as the team's best player (we were a whopping 6-24 last season with Rondo at the helm).   Yes, Melo ultimately felt like the supporting cast in Denver wasn't enough for him to compete... which should be a story all too familiar to Celtic fans *cough* KG *cough*.   Yes, Melo finally missed the playoffs for the first time in his entire career last season for the woefully mis-managed Knicks and the media is abuzz with speculation he'll want out.  Personally, I never understood how my fellow Celtic fans could bash Carmelo Anthony without realizing the vast similarities to our hero Paul Pierce.   Want to talk about inefficient?  In 2004, Pierce shot 40%/29%/82%.  That's inefficient.  Want to talk about a "perennial loser"?  In the 9 pre-KG years Pierce played for Boston, they made the playoffs a total of 4 times... not once cracking 50 wins.  And say what you want about 'Toine, but let's note that Pierce's failure happened WITH another all-star caliber player alongside him.  In the two seasons prior to the arrival of KG the savior, we won 33 and 24 games.  Pierce was frequently labelled a malcontent.  Several fans wanted to see him traded.  The worst moment of his career likely took place in his final playoff appearance as the "best player" in Boston... where he had a flagrant offensive foul in the final seconds of a playoff game we were WINNING, had himself ejected, and responded by ripping off his jersey and swinging around his head like a classless loser:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbwm2tolAHo  ... Now look, I freakin love Paul Pierce.  I adore him.  He's my favorite player of the modern era.  I named my cat after him.  But let's be real here... how is Melo worse than pre-KG Paul Pierce? 

Melo's career numbers:  30 years old, 25.2 points, 6.5 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 1.1 steals, 46%/35%/81%, 10 playoff appearances, 7x All-star, 1 WCF Appearance. 
Pierce (pre-KG) numbers:  30 years old 23.3 points, 6.5 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 1.6 steals 44%/36%/79%, 4 playoff appearances, 5x All-star, 1 ECF Appearance.

Melo has slipped a little in the two years since I wrote that, but I stand by all of it.  I have no doubt that in a quality system with a quality coach, Melo (even at the same age Ray was when we acquired him) would see his efficiency take a leap in the same way Avery, Thomas and Jae have seen their efficiency take a leap with the addition of Al Horford. 

I also don't buy the idea that we'd say no to Melo, because we have more pressing needs ... rebounding and interior defense.  Yes, it's true that we have more pressing needs... but that's not the reason you tell the Knicks you're completely uninterested. 

We can assume that a trade for Melo would be a lowball acquisition where we give up something like Amir's expiring, Zeller's expiring, Jerebko's expiring and one or two of the non-Brooklyn picks.   Obviously it's a firm no if it's costing you significant assets.   In that scenario, maybe you move either Melo or Jae to the PF slot.  You'd still have an issue with interior defense and rebounding, but that's not why you'd say no to the lowball hypothetical. 

If you're Ainge, you don't tell New york you're flat out uninterested for ANY of the above reasons...

Here's the real reason they'd say no.  It has nothing to do with Melo, his fit or our needs.   The real reason you say no is simple...   The belief that something better will present itself.   In terms of having assets, we're loaded.  Especially in regards to draft assets.  Our pre-lottery draft assets are historically valuable.  We own picks for the next two years belonging to a team that is likely going to end up with the worst record in the league.  You can acquire those picks without sabotaging the pick since the players you send out will not be improving the team the pick belongs to.   That's a unique situation.   We also have an perfectly curated collection of expiring contracts.  That means if a major player becomes available... Blake, Westbrook, Boogie, Paul George, Butler, ANthony Davis, etc...   Boston is the frontrunner to grab them.   You don't want to blow your chance by using up your expirings to acquire Melo.  Yes, it's unlikely that a guy like Davis will become available, but Boston is a Top 3 team in the East with quality play from Melo's position.  They are in no rush.  In the off chance a major (far younger) player becomes available, you want to make sure you have everything possible to grab that guy.   Jumping at Melo would hurt our trade flexibility for the mythical trades that might present themselves. 

The other reason you say no is because it would likely kill your chance to have max cap space this Summer.   We're in a very good position to add someone.  Blake?  Hayward?   It's very possible.  You'd add one of those guys without losing anything.   If you have 20+ mil locked up for Melo, you essentially eliminate that possibility.

If Ainge pulls the trigger it means he has to get creative including Avery/Jae in any deals that might present themselves (for salary matching)... or it means that Ainge is confident acquiring Melo is the best option we have/he's just too good to pass up for that cheap.   

In short:  It has nothing to do with Melo as a person or a player.  Has everything to do with maintaining flexibility for a better trade or free agency. 
 

In light of recent comments, I just want to clarify that while Jaylen + Amir + Kelly for 32 year old Melo is basically the modern equivalent of what we gave up for 32 year old Ray, I wouldn't be pleased if we did that.  And I don't think that's what it would cost. 

From New York's perspective, if this draft is as incredible as people say, there's a lot of value in them tanking hard for a top 6 pick.  They are in the 11th slot right now, but are only 3 games out of 4th to last.  Melo nearly won them a game last night by dropping 45 points in a Quad overtime game.  If I'm Phil Jackson, my priority is dumping Melo's salary, buying out Rose, maybe getting a couple picks/prospects and going hard at the top of this draft.   Be mindful that it's pretty unanimous from draft experts that Jaylen Brown would go no higher than 7th in this 2017 draft and might be more like 10th.   So the real value for New York would be putting themselves in position to snag a prospect that's better than Jaylen via the 2017 draft to pair with Porzingis (who I continue to see as a tad overrated, but that's another story).   

New York's in a bit of a bind, because Melo dictates where he will go and it's a bit tricky to find a workable trade with the one team that seems to have mutual interest (Clips).   

I explained in my last post why Boston would say no.  It's not because they are anti-Melo or anything.  You say no, because of how it impacts our flexibility.   We want to be in the best position possible to land a young superstar if one hits the market.   We are a frontrunner to land anyone who becomes available.  Adding Melo would limit that flexibility, because it would take our major expiring contracts.   It also would basically eliminate our ability to use max cap space this Summer.  There's some intriguing players hitting free agency this Summer and we'll be a frontrunner to sign one.   You say no without making an offer, basically because you don't want to accidentally take yourself out of the running when a better option presents itself later this month or this Summer.

I really wouldn't see it taking more than just our major expirings (Amir + Zeller + Jerebko) + expendable prospects and non-Brooklyn 1sts.  I'm not sure New York can do better than that given the circumstances.  But even there I think Boston says no, because of the reasons outlined above.

I will say...  if Boston actually did acquire Melo and keep Jaylen in the process, I'd be very excited about that.  I think Jaylen could have a really bright future, but it's contingent on maximizing his development.  I think you stick him on New York and he's unlikely to ever amount to anything substantial.   But if you keep him on Boston and let him continue to learn on this Top 8 team with quality vets, he could exceed expectations.  I'd love to have him learning from Melo over the next couple years while Melo continues to score at an all-star level.   Jaylen would have hands-on experience with learning how to defend against star players (Melo is one of the most versatile scorers of this generation).   Jaylen would also presumably pick up a lot of insight on how to score at a star level.   

Just like tanking for a top pick would be a hidden benefit of New York ridding themselves of Melo... Jaylen learning from Melo would be a hidden benefit of Boston adding him.   

I only see it happening if Ainge decides #1 - There's no way we are ever trading the Brooklyn 1sts.  #2 - There just isn't a better option out there via trade (for example if the Bulls continue to have unreasonable demands for Premium Brand Ricky Davis).  #3 - He doesn't like our chances in Free agency this Summer even though guys like Blake Griffin and Gordon Hayward could very likely hit free agency and we'd be a frontrunner to add them without losing a single asset.  #4 - He decides he just can't possibly say no to adding Melo for scraps.   That last one is an important one to consider.  Boston was mid-tank when we suddenly stumbled into an opportunity to add Isaiah Thomas for nothing.  Even though it didn't run in line with the goal of that season (bottoming out for a top pick), Ainge couldn't turn down the opportunity to add Thomas for scraps.   We could be finding ourselves in a similar situation with Melo.  He's not Plan A or Plan B... but if you're able to add him for almost nothing, maybe you have to do it.

Beautifully said. Your post is a work of art. I couldn't have said it any better myself. TP.

I second that and the TP, as well. Truly exceptional stuff, LB, greatly appreciated. The perspective on Pierce's pre-Big Three career is especially welcome.

[Chief Macho]

I don't get the Knicks position.  I'd literally just give him away to get the money off the books.   Its all ego holding Melo in NYC. 

[crimson_stallion]

I guess my perspective on things is this...

In 2008, Danny Ainge took a gamble.   He had a Celtics team that wasn't going far,  with a star player who had a few years of prime play left.   He had just drafted a very talented big who seemed to have great upside (Jefferson)  and had some other nice pieces too.  He probably could have tried to develop some of his young guys,  and maybe the Celtics would have been a first round exit playoff team for the next 4 or 5 years.

But he took a gamble.  Traded away half hours team of role players and prospects for two 30 years old all stars.   

You cannot compare the situation in 2007, coming off a 24-win season, to now when the team has 29 wins before the All-Star break.

Danny has a 50+ win team in his hands RIGHT NOW.  No trade required.  With max cap space for a free agent next year...all while sitting on a likely guaranteed top-3 pick in this draft, with probably another lottery pick in 2018, and a bunch of other draft picks (possibly more lottery picks).  This is how dynasties are created.

Apples and Oranges.

I disagree with yo.

The reason I disagree is because it doesn't matter how many wins we have right now, everybody who's anybody knows that this team, as it's currently assembled, cannot beat the Cavs in a 7 game series. 

Or the Warriors.  Or the Spurs.  Even the Raptors would be a long shot.

Until we have a roster strong enough to be able to beat the Cavs in a 7 game series, we are an ECF exist at best.  That means we may as well be a first round exit.

The other problem is that *knock on wood* we are an Isaiah Thomas injury away from being a first round exit RIGHT NOW.  Without him we are toast.  Avery Bradley cannot carry this team.  Jae Crowder cannot carry this team.  Al Horford cannot carry this team.  Thomas misses two or three playoff games and we are done.

See, the thing about the 08 Celtics - Pierce was one of the most clutch scorers in the league. Ray was one of the mos clutch scorers in the league.  KG was clutch on both ends of the court.  If one star went down, we always had another guy who could step up and hit big shots.

Cleveland - if they lose lebron, they probably STILL have a shot at beating us in a 7 game series.  If Golden State loses Durant, they still have a chance to beat us in a 7 game series.  If Spurs lose Kawhi, they still have a chance at beating us in a  game series.  If Toronto loses Derozon they still hve a shot at beating us too. 

If we lose Thomas, we have zero chance at beating any of those teams.

Our situation is more like 08 then you might think.  Sure we are winning games - but this is the Boston Celtics.  Nobody in this franchise is happy with a #2 seed and a first or second round exit.   If we don't make it to at least the NBA finals, it's not good enough. 

Why?

Because there are moves available that could be made that COULD take us to the finals, potentially.

Like 08 we have ageing stars in Thomas and Horford.  What' the point in spending the next 2-3 years enduring 1st and 2nd round exits while Horford and Thomas decline? 

Thomas is only 27 but he's a 5'9" PG who plays extremely aggressive and who is highly dependent on his quickness.  He's not going to be the same guy when he's 30 or 31.   

Horford is 30 and he's already showing signs of decline.  Three years from now he's going to be struggling to play at a starters level, almost certainly.

Crowder, Bradley and Smart are still young and have a lot of basketball in them, but neither of those guys is ever going to rise to star status - none of those guys will be the type who can lead this team deep in the playoffs.

We have a strong three year window here of legitimate title contention if we make the right move(s).  The whole chemistry argument is a moot point if you don't have the talent.  We have one of the best coaches in the league - we can build chemistry if we have the right talent.  But we can't build talent by having the right chemistry. 

If we traded Crowder, Amir, Young and the Memphis pick for Melo, then that's a very good deal for both teams.  We gain an extra closer - an exra guy who can carry the team.  We go from being a title pretender to a title contender.

And we STILL keep Smart, Brown AND the both Brooklyn picks so we can add / develop further talent down the track.

I don't see any possible downside to making that deal.

Or you don't make a move.  You wait until the offseason so we can make that huge free agent signing with all of our cap space - how many big free agent signings have the Celtics made in the past decade?  I mean sure, the possibility is there...but putting all of your hopes into free agency is a very risky proposition.  Plus lets not forget that in order to sign that max player, we have to let some of our current guys go.  Amir johnson for example (one of those "chemistry" guys we speak of) would have to be let go.  As would Kelly Olynyk, most likely.   

Lets say we DON'T manage to sign a star key free agent - then what?  We depend on the nets pick?  We have the #1 odds, and the team with #1 odds rarely ever gets the #1 pick.  Most likely we get the #2 or #3 pick.  Who went in the top three this year?  Simmons (not playing) went #1.  Ingram and Brown went 2 and 3 - both are producing at role player levels at this point in their careers.  Jabari Parker was crap his first two seasons, Embiid didn't play his first two seasons, the Timberwolves aced the recent drafts better then any team in recent history and they still cant win games. 

That's the thing with rookies - they usually take a year or two before they can actually contribute at a game-changing level, and by then Thomas and Horford's prime window will be winding down and we will have wasted a prime opportunity. 

On the other hand we can trade, bring in a guy who is a proven scorer and proven closer, who can give us insurance for Thomas. We can do that at a cost of a good but replaceable starter (Crowder), a solid role player who lacks the health to exceed 20 MPG (Amir), a hopeless prospect (young) and a Memphis pick that we really do not need. 

Those assets (bar Young - who is just filler) are a lot more valuable to a rebuliding Knicks team then they are to us.  The Knicks need picks.  The Knicks need cap relief. The Knicks need young impact players.  They need flexibility...and that package offers them more then anybody else is offering.

On the other hand Crowder isn't getting us past the Cavs.  Amir isn't getting us past the Cavs.  Melo could.   

[mrceltics2013]

I take back what I said.. I doubt we could trade smart anyways. Don't think he even has trade value. I've never seen anyone with such poor offense 😂

[crimson_stallion]

I really don't see how the flexibility and chemistry arguments hold much weight. 

First point - we have never landed a star playerin free agency using cap space.  The best we did was Al Horford this year, and he's a fringe star.  Greg Monroe is a fringe star and he chose Milwaukee over us.  Lemarcus Aldridge chose San Antonio over us.  Kevin Durant choose Golden State over us, even after we met his prerequisite (adding Horford). 

My point here is that having cap space is nice - it makes you a player in free agency.  It gives you the opportunity to TRY and sign a key free agent.  But there are maybe 3 or 4 star free agents any given off-season, and 30 teams fighting for them (including their own teams, who can usually offer them the most money).  As exciting as it is to have cap space, the actually probability of adding a big name free agent is always going to be pretty darn slim.

Secondly - as far as I'm aware, we won't axtually have cap space for a max free agent next year unless we let Amir walk (at the very least - possibly Olynyk too).  Like Crowder, Amir and Olynyk are key "chemistry" part of this team (as any advanced stat will show) so the idea of adding a big name free agent without having to lose anybody in the process really isn't realistic.  This season for example we added Horford, but we lost Sully and Turner.  Now in order to get Horford, we had to hold off on signing Turner an Sully.  While waiting to hear Horford's answer, Turner signed elsewhere.  What if Horford decided to stay in Atlanta?  We'd have lost Turner, we'd have been forced to re-sign Sully, and we'd have gained nothing. We just lucked out that Horford DID sign here. Even with Horford signing - we've turned out better overall, but there have been times we've really felt the loss of those  Turner and/or Sully. 

So the idea of adding a guy like Griffin or Hayward in free agency without losing anybody is  unrealistic.

Now on that point - we can give up 'chemistry' players like Amir and Olynyk next year so we can free the cap space to HOPEFULLY sign a star (like Griffin) or a fringe-star (like Hayward). We run the risk of letting those guys walk, coming up short of free agency, and taking a step backwards.

Or we can give up one or two 'chemistry' players right now in a trade, and then we GUARANTEE that we get a star player (like Melo) or a fringe star (like Vucevic) back.

Also I would like to again re-emphasise that if we can get Melo at a somewhat reasonable cost, then there is nothing stopping us from continuing to pursue additional trades.

My first proposal would be trading Amir, Crowder, Young, 2017 Celtics 1st, 2019 Celtics 1st to New York for Carmelo Anthony. 

My second proposal would be trading Zeller, Rozier and the Memphis 1st to Orlando for Vucevic.

Our roster becomes:

Vucevic
Horford
Carmelo
Bradley
Thomas
Smart
Green
Brown
Jerebko
Olynyk
Mickey
Jackson

That is enough talent to beat any team in this league in a 7 game series - including the Cavs, Spurs and even the Warriors.    And we don't need to give up a single Brooklyn pick.

And if a really desirable playing comes up as a trade option later down the track (e.g. Cousins, Anthony Davis, Jimmy Butler) we sill have a plethora of trade assets in Vucevic, Smart, Brown, Bradley and both Brooklyn picks...so we aren't sacrificing any flexibility. 

If no other trade options come up, then we get to use the Brooklyn picks to potentially draft a pair of top 5 picks who can then grow (along with Jaylen Brown) while getting playoff experiende on a championship caliber roster.

i don't really see the downside here.

[RockinRyA]

I really don't see how the flexibility and chemistry arguments hold much weight. 

First point - we have never landed a star playerin free agency using cap space.  The best we did was Al Horford this year, and he's a fringe star.  Greg Monroe is a fringe star and he chose Milwaukee over us.  Lemarcus Aldridge chose San Antonio over us.  Kevin Durant choose Golden State over us, even after we met his prerequisite (adding Horford). 

My point here is that having cap space is nice - it makes you a player in free agency.  It gives you the opportunity to TRY and sign a key free agent.  But there are maybe 3 or 4 star free agents any given off-season, and 30 teams fighting for them (including their own teams, who can usually offer them the most money).  As exciting as it is to have cap space, the actually probability of adding a big name free agent is always going to be pretty darn slim.

Secondly - as far as I'm aware, we won't axtually have cap space for a max free agent next year unless we let Amir walk (at the very least - possibly Olynyk too).  Like Crowder, Amir and Olynyk are key "chemistry" part of this team (as any advanced stat will show) so the idea of adding a big name free agent without having to lose anybody in the process really isn't realistic.  This season for example we added Horford, but we lost Sully and Turner.  Now in order to get Horford, we had to hold off on signing Turner an Sully.  While waiting to hear Horford's answer, Turner signed elsewhere.  What if Horford decided to stay in Atlanta?  We'd have lost Turner, we'd have been forced to re-sign Sully, and we'd have gained nothing. We just lucked out that Horford DID sign here. Even with Horford signing - we've turned out better overall, but there have been times we've really felt the loss of those  Turner and/or Sully. 

So the idea of adding a guy like Griffin or Hayward in free agency without losing anybody is  unrealistic.

Now on that point - we can give up 'chemistry' players like Amir and Olynyk next year so we can free the cap space to HOPEFULLY sign a star (like Griffin) or a fringe-star (like Hayward). We run the risk of letting those guys walk, coming up short of free agency, and taking a step backwards.

Or we can give up one or two 'chemistry' players right now in a trade, and then we GUARANTEE that we get a star player (like Melo) or a fringe star (like Vucevic) back.

Also I would like to again re-emphasise that if we can get Melo at a somewhat reasonable cost, then there is nothing stopping us from continuing to pursue additional trades.

My first proposal would be trading Amir, Crowder, Young, 2017 Celtics 1st, 2019 Celtics 1st to New York for Carmelo Anthony. 

My second proposal would be trading Zeller, Rozier and the Memphis 1st to Orlando for Vucevic.

Our roster becomes:

Vucevic
Horford
Carmelo
Bradley
Thomas
Smart
Green
Brown
Jerebko
Olynyk
Mickey
Jackson

That is enough talent to beat any team in this league in a 7 game series - including the Cavs, Spurs and even the Warriors.    And we don't need to give up a single Brooklyn pick.

And if a really desirable playing comes up as a trade option later down the track (e.g. Cousins, Anthony Davis, Jimmy Butler) we sill have a plethora of trade assets in Vucevic, Smart, Brown, Bradley and both Brooklyn picks...so we aren't sacrificing any flexibility. 

If no other trade options come up, then we get to use the Brooklyn picks to potentially draft a pair of top 5 picks who can then grow (along with Jaylen Brown) while getting playoff experiende on a championship caliber roster.

i don't really see the downside here.

Wow. Flexibility dont hold much weight? You don't think the Nets needed flexibility?  How about Detroit? How do you think Houston got Harden? Hell its not even clear if Carmelo makes us better instead of Crowder. Have you seen Melo play? Our issues are rebounding and defense, how the heck does Melo help that? No way is Melo worth two firsts. Id rather offer these for Hayward or Butler than Melo.

[Monkhouse]

You kind of missed his point.

Yes defense, and rebounding is an issue. But teams are going to design defensive schemes to shut down Isaiah Thomas in the playoffs, unless we get a second scorer. Crowder, Bradley, and Horford can do it, but they aren't consistent enough. Melo is a deadly scorer that most teams fear.

But his original point is even though we would be sacrificing flexibility, there is nothing absolutely no assurance or guarantee that Hayward, George, Griffin, Cousins, or Millsap is coming here.

I prefer to go after Melo, but if it costs too much, I'm backing out.

Adding Melo gives us that second dimension on offense, yes we have top 10 ranked offense, but it hasn't gotten us that far in the playoffs. We need a go to scorer next to Isaiah. I would still want a big man that can rebound and block shots like Bogut, or Noel regardless..

Cousins is my wet dream, but eh...

Either way, we can wait it out. See if it costs maybe a first, a young prospect, some second rounders to pry away Melo, and I'm all over it.

If not, we see what we end up with the draft, and make decisions then.

I would like to see how far Isaiah, Melo, and Horford could go, if we could at least have two of Bradley, Smart, or Crowder.

[nickagneta]

Ainge said no....he isnt coming here.

[crimson_stallion]

I really don't see how the flexibility and chemistry arguments hold much weight. 

First point - we have never landed a star playerin free agency using cap space.  The best we did was Al Horford this year, and he's a fringe star.  Greg Monroe is a fringe star and he chose Milwaukee over us.  Lemarcus Aldridge chose San Antonio over us.  Kevin Durant choose Golden State over us, even after we met his prerequisite (adding Horford). 

My point here is that having cap space is nice - it makes you a player in free agency.  It gives you the opportunity to TRY and sign a key free agent.  But there are maybe 3 or 4 star free agents any given off-season, and 30 teams fighting for them (including their own teams, who can usually offer them the most money).  As exciting as it is to have cap space, the actually probability of adding a big name free agent is always going to be pretty darn slim.

Secondly - as far as I'm aware, we won't axtually have cap space for a max free agent next year unless we let Amir walk (at the very least - possibly Olynyk too).  Like Crowder, Amir and Olynyk are key "chemistry" part of this team (as any advanced stat will show) so the idea of adding a big name free agent without having to lose anybody in the process really isn't realistic.  This season for example we added Horford, but we lost Sully and Turner.  Now in order to get Horford, we had to hold off on signing Turner an Sully.  While waiting to hear Horford's answer, Turner signed elsewhere.  What if Horford decided to stay in Atlanta?  We'd have lost Turner, we'd have been forced to re-sign Sully, and we'd have gained nothing. We just lucked out that Horford DID sign here. Even with Horford signing - we've turned out better overall, but there have been times we've really felt the loss of those  Turner and/or Sully. 

So the idea of adding a guy like Griffin or Hayward in free agency without losing anybody is  unrealistic.

Now on that point - we can give up 'chemistry' players like Amir and Olynyk next year so we can free the cap space to HOPEFULLY sign a star (like Griffin) or a fringe-star (like Hayward). We run the risk of letting those guys walk, coming up short of free agency, and taking a step backwards.

Or we can give up one or two 'chemistry' players right now in a trade, and then we GUARANTEE that we get a star player (like Melo) or a fringe star (like Vucevic) back.

Also I would like to again re-emphasise that if we can get Melo at a somewhat reasonable cost, then there is nothing stopping us from continuing to pursue additional trades.

My first proposal would be trading Amir, Crowder, Young, 2017 Celtics 1st, 2019 Celtics 1st to New York for Carmelo Anthony. 

My second proposal would be trading Zeller, Rozier and the Memphis 1st to Orlando for Vucevic.

Our roster becomes:

Vucevic
Horford
Carmelo
Bradley
Thomas
Smart
Green
Brown
Jerebko
Olynyk
Mickey
Jackson

That is enough talent to beat any team in this league in a 7 game series - including the Cavs, Spurs and even the Warriors.    And we don't need to give up a single Brooklyn pick.

And if a really desirable playing comes up as a trade option later down the track (e.g. Cousins, Anthony Davis, Jimmy Butler) we sill have a plethora of trade assets in Vucevic, Smart, Brown, Bradley and both Brooklyn picks...so we aren't sacrificing any flexibility. 

If no other trade options come up, then we get to use the Brooklyn picks to potentially draft a pair of top 5 picks who can then grow (along with Jaylen Brown) while getting playoff experiende on a championship caliber roster.

i don't really see the downside here.

Wow. Flexibility dont hold much weight? You don't think the Nets needed flexibility?  How about Detroit? How do you think Houston got Harden? Hell its not even clear if Carmelo makes us better instead of Crowder. Have you seen Melo play? Our issues are rebounding and defense, how the heck does Melo help that? No way is Melo worth two firsts. Id rather offer these for Hayward or Butler than Melo.

I don't think you read anything beyond the first line of what I just wrote, and I don't even think you read that part properly.

I didn't say flexibility doesn't hold much weight.  I said the flexibility argument doesn't hold much weight.   

As in, pulling off a trade for Melo doesn't really hurt our flexibility. 

Lets say we made the two trades I just suggested to bring in Carmelo and Vucevic:

* We would still have strong prospects in Marcus Smart (22) and Jaylen Brown (20) 
* We would still have the rights to Yebusele and Zizic
* We would still have a Brooklyn first round pick this year which looks like a certain top 4
* We would still have a Brooklyn first round pick next year which looks certain lottery
* We would still have pieces like Jerebko, Green and Olynyk who could be useful trade assets
* We would still have two excellent young starters (Bradley, Vucevic) who could be great trade assets

Then 3-4 years from (when the championship window starts to close) Melo's $24M and Horford's $28M will both come off the books, giving us a big wad of cap relief.

Hence why I say the flexibility argument is not a valid one.  Even if we did those trades, we would still have a crap-ton of assets, and a crap-ton of flexibility.  We still probably have more assets and flexibility then any other team in the league.

Now, on to the defensive argument.

Our three best defensive players would be Avery Bradley, Al Horford, and Marcus Smart.  Lets take a look at the other elite teams we are trying to beat.  Does Cleveland have three players who are better then those guys defensively?  Nope.  How about Golden State? Nope.  How about the Spurs?  Nope.  Clippers?  No.

Hint - of all the elite teams in the league right now, none of them are studded with defensive stars.  They are offensive oriented teams. 

Now, on to the rebounding argument.

Part of my proposal includes adding Vucevic in a separate trade. Vucevic is a 7'0", 265 pound monster with a 7'5" wingspan.  He's averaged 15 points (on 50% shooting) and 10 rebounds in 30 minutes for his career so far...and he's only 26 so he's still got upside.  Rebounding problem solved.

[saltlover]

Ainge said no....he isnt coming here.

Probably not, but I expect there's a price Ainge would accept.  It's just a good deal lower than Phil is asking right now.

[Monkhouse]

I really don't see how the flexibility and chemistry arguments hold much weight. 

First point - we have never landed a star playerin free agency using cap space.  The best we did was Al Horford this year, and he's a fringe star.  Greg Monroe is a fringe star and he chose Milwaukee over us.  Lemarcus Aldridge chose San Antonio over us.  Kevin Durant choose Golden State over us, even after we met his prerequisite (adding Horford). 

My point here is that having cap space is nice - it makes you a player in free agency.  It gives you the opportunity to TRY and sign a key free agent.  But there are maybe 3 or 4 star free agents any given off-season, and 30 teams fighting for them (including their own teams, who can usually offer them the most money).  As exciting as it is to have cap space, the actually probability of adding a big name free agent is always going to be pretty darn slim.

Secondly - as far as I'm aware, we won't axtually have cap space for a max free agent next year unless we let Amir walk (at the very least - possibly Olynyk too).  Like Crowder, Amir and Olynyk are key "chemistry" part of this team (as any advanced stat will show) so the idea of adding a big name free agent without having to lose anybody in the process really isn't realistic.  This season for example we added Horford, but we lost Sully and Turner.  Now in order to get Horford, we had to hold off on signing Turner an Sully.  While waiting to hear Horford's answer, Turner signed elsewhere.  What if Horford decided to stay in Atlanta?  We'd have lost Turner, we'd have been forced to re-sign Sully, and we'd have gained nothing. We just lucked out that Horford DID sign here. Even with Horford signing - we've turned out better overall, but there have been times we've really felt the loss of those  Turner and/or Sully. 

So the idea of adding a guy like Griffin or Hayward in free agency without losing anybody is  unrealistic.

Now on that point - we can give up 'chemistry' players like Amir and Olynyk next year so we can free the cap space to HOPEFULLY sign a star (like Griffin) or a fringe-star (like Hayward). We run the risk of letting those guys walk, coming up short of free agency, and taking a step backwards.

Or we can give up one or two 'chemistry' players right now in a trade, and then we GUARANTEE that we get a star player (like Melo) or a fringe star (like Vucevic) back.

Also I would like to again re-emphasise that if we can get Melo at a somewhat reasonable cost, then there is nothing stopping us from continuing to pursue additional trades.

My first proposal would be trading Amir, Crowder, Young, 2017 Celtics 1st, 2019 Celtics 1st to New York for Carmelo Anthony. 

My second proposal would be trading Zeller, Rozier and the Memphis 1st to Orlando for Vucevic.

Our roster becomes:

Vucevic
Horford
Carmelo
Bradley
Thomas
Smart
Green
Brown
Jerebko
Olynyk
Mickey
Jackson

That is enough talent to beat any team in this league in a 7 game series - including the Cavs, Spurs and even the Warriors.    And we don't need to give up a single Brooklyn pick.

And if a really desirable playing comes up as a trade option later down the track (e.g. Cousins, Anthony Davis, Jimmy Butler) we sill have a plethora of trade assets in Vucevic, Smart, Brown, Bradley and both Brooklyn picks...so we aren't sacrificing any flexibility. 

If no other trade options come up, then we get to use the Brooklyn picks to potentially draft a pair of top 5 picks who can then grow (along with Jaylen Brown) while getting playoff experiende on a championship caliber roster.

i don't really see the downside here.

Wow. Flexibility dont hold much weight? You don't think the Nets needed flexibility?  How about Detroit? How do you think Houston got Harden? Hell its not even clear if Carmelo makes us better instead of Crowder. Have you seen Melo play? Our issues are rebounding and defense, how the heck does Melo help that? No way is Melo worth two firsts. Id rather offer these for Hayward or Butler than Melo.

Our three best defensive players would be Avery Bradley, Al Horford, and Marcus Smart.  Lets take a look at the other elite teams we are trying to beat.  Does Cleveland have three players who are better then those guys defensively?  Nope.  How about Golden State? Nope.  How about the Spurs?  Nope.  Clippers?  No.

Hint - of all the elite teams in the league right now, none of them are studded with defensive stars.  They are offensive oriented teams. 

Now, on to the rebounding argument.

Part of my proposal includes adding Vucevic in a separate trade. Vucevic is a 7'0", 265 pound monster with a 7'5" wingspan.  He's averaged 15 points (on 50% shooting) and 10 rebounds in 30 minutes for his career so far...and he's only 26 so he's still got upside.  Rebounding problem solved.

I think that part is debatable. When locked in, Durant, Draymond and Klay are just as good defenders when compared to Bradley, Smart, and Horford.

And what is your love with Vucevic. He's a great rebounder, but does he honestly make our team that much better?

[chambers]

Ainge said no....he isnt coming here.

Probably not, but I expect there's a price Ainge would accept.  It's just a good deal lower than Phil is asking right now.

Not sure when Danny has ever said yes to a first trade proposal...not even the IT to Boston trade.

Deadline is 23rd feb. Plenty of time for Phil to study and fall in love with our scrubs.

Did anyone else see the report that the Knicks had scouts at our bucks game the other night?
They were probably thinking..'is this James Young guy as terrible as everyone says he is?'.

[chambers]

Does anyone else think we'd likely send Bradley out in a Melo trade before sending Crowder?
I think it's way too much for Melo but i think Bradleys looming extension means we'd prefer to keep Crowder and his sweet contract over Bradley if we have to choose one.

[MBunge]

Does anyone else think we'd likely send Bradley out in a Melo trade before sending Crowder?
I think it's way too much for Melo but i think Bradleys looming extension means we'd prefer to keep Crowder and his sweet contract over Bradley if we have to choose one.

I would bet money we won't trade either for Melo.

Mike

[trickybilly]

Does anyone else think we'd likely send Bradley out in a Melo trade before sending Crowder?
I think it's way too much for Melo but i think Bradleys looming extension means we'd prefer to keep Crowder and his sweet contract over Bradley if we have to choose one.

Crowder is virtually untouchable except for a Boogie, Durant, LeBron, Curry trade.

Seriously, I think Brad and Danny value him that much over the next few years. I see these suggestions that Crowder could be involved in a Noel deal, and just shake my head..