College vs. International Professional Leagues

[Vermont Green]

This has come up as a subset of other discussions about Yabusele and Zizic but I was interested to get more specific input from everyone on the competition level and development potential.

It seems to me that any of the international pro/semi-pro leagues are a higher level of competition than the NCAA.  I think you are playing against more mature and more consistently talented players.  So if Yabusele puts up 25 pts against a Chinese team, that is still harder than when Duke plays Elon or something like that.

I also think the Pro/Semi-pro leagues are going to force you to be more mature and better prepare you emotionally for the NBA.  A college freshman at Kentucky has it a lot easier than Yabusele for example, traveling around China with grown men.

The third aspect to consider I think is skills or fundamentals development.  I am not sure the better path for this.  You would think that the schools like Kansas, UCLA, etc. would have better coaches and more complete coaching staffs but I don't know.  Lottery rookies don't seem to have great fundamentals when they get to the NBA for the most part whereas it seems that after a few years in Europe or other international ball, the players that make it seem more fundamentally sound.

[Moranis]

Depends on the pro league, the minutes being played, the coaching, etc.  I'm sure there are situations where a pro league is more helpful, but I suspect more times than not playing in college is the best path towards reaching ones full potential.

[Somebody]

Um no I disagree, I live in HK and I've watched some CBA games in China, which some are championship games. The overall talent level if you take out international players (which don't take up a lot of roster spots tbh, most players are Chinese) not on par with college players. Guards there are a bit shorter and they have worse athleticism, bigs aren't as strong and skilled (outside of shooting they really don't have any advantages) as well as being less athletic. Wings there are absolutely bad compared to college wings you've got on the top of your mock drafts, like Josh Jackson and Jayson Tatum. They have around the same skill level with worse athleticism and their speed is literal MILES away from them. (and it's even arguable whether are they truly as skilled as college players). All in all, the CBA is not better than college, they might be around the same because of the players mostly being savvy vets and have more experience,but not better than college. For guys thinking I'm racist, I'm Chinese as well.

[saltlover]

For American players, I'd think college is generally more beneficial, because they won't get as much court time in a pro league where winning is more important to the coach than developing an American who's looking to go back to the States in two years.  And they'll likely have to deal with instruction in a foreign language.

For internationals, a bit of the reverse.  They'll have similar court time issues, although less so because they can play in a lower league that offers them more playing time.  But the instruction is more likely to be in their native language.  Eventually it would behoove said player to learn English to make it in the NBA, but hopefully he would take classes for that rather than trying to get on-the-job immersion.

[Eja117]

Don't we occasionally have college teams like Kentucky, Michigan, and Michigan St go overseas sometimes and do pretty well?

In terms of basketball development I'd probably trust Izzo, Coach K, and Roy Williams over anyone overseas. 

If you are a top talent then they know you're leaving in a year or two so they only use you to win games, not develop you. Even a Coach Cal wants to see you at least drafted high

[saltlover]

Don't we occasionally have college teams like Kentucky, Michigan, and Michigan St go overseas sometimes and do pretty well?

In terms of basketball development I'd probably trust Izzo, Coach K, and Roy Williams over anyone overseas. 

If you are a top talent then they know you're leaving in a year or two so they only use you to win games, not develop you. Even a Coach Cal wants to see you at least drafted high

The top pro teams in Europe have developmental teams, normally for players aged 20 and under.  Typically it is those teams that the college teams play against, not the actual grown man club.

[KGs Knee]

Well, if we're talking about the top European teams, yeah that is a higher level of competition than the NCAA. The Euroleague champ would most assuredly wipe the floor with the NCAA champ in any given year.

I have no idea about the Chinese league, but from what little I have seen, it looks very amateurish.

But the OP makes a good point about some of the lesser teams in college basketball, it's basically a bunch of dudes who have no chance of even making a D-league roster. But the top athletes aren't playing very many games against those weaker teams either though.

Overall, I'd bet the competition level in the top Euroleagues is better than the top college conferences.

[CelticGuardian]

I read your piece, very interesting. I'm not sure I'm ready to declare foreign prospects as superior prospects. If Danny believed that, Jaylen wouldn't be here instead we would have Dragan Bender, who IS LIE!!

But yeah, almost all the stars in the NBA are American born. That's something to consider too.

[KGs Knee]

I read your piece, very interesting. I'm not sure I'm ready to declare foreign prospects as superior prospects. If Danny believed that, Jaylen wouldn't be here instead we would have Dragan Bender, who IS LIE!!

But yeah, almost all the stars in the NBA are American born. That's something to consider too.

Well, sure, the top end prospective talent is better in college, no denying that. But once you move past those players, the college "scrubs" are no better than the average foreign league player, and far less experienced.

[Vermont Green]

I read your piece, very interesting. I'm not sure I'm ready to declare foreign prospects as superior prospects. If Danny believed that, Jaylen wouldn't be here instead we would have Dragan Bender, who IS LIE!!

But yeah, almost all the stars in the NBA are American born. That's something to consider too.

That was not my intent.  Rather I am trying to understand how to calibrate what Yabusele and Zizic are doing vs. some of the touted college prospects.  For example, if Yabusele puts up 25 pts in China, how does that compare to Harry Giles putting up xx against say Maryland in terms of demonstrating their preparedness or potential for the NBA. 

The top talent in the NCAA is the top of course but there is also a drop off and over the 30 games that say Duke plays, they play some cupcakes.  I think the top European pro leagues are a higher level than the NCAA and if a 19 year old was a top player in one of those leagues, that is probably a top lottery pick.

Bender never really played at the top level.  He was a risky pick  but nearly all picks are risky.  I think Zizic is playing well enough in a competitive enough league to show he is ready for the NBA, as ready as all but the top of the top of NCAA prospects.  Yabusele is harder to gauge and that is what this feedback is helping me get a feel for.

[RockinRyA]

I read your piece, very interesting. I'm not sure I'm ready to declare foreign prospects as superior prospects. If Danny believed that, Jaylen wouldn't be here instead we would have Dragan Bender, who IS LIE!!

But yeah, almost all the stars in the NBA are American born. That's something to consider too.

Bender had medicore stats and played little. What intrigued people was his skillset, not because he produced  against superior or inferior talent.

CBA is bad. Top level EuroLeague wipes the floor with NCAA.

[bdm860]

I read your piece, very interesting. I'm not sure I'm ready to declare foreign prospects as superior prospects. If Danny believed that, Jaylen wouldn't be here instead we would have Dragan Bender, who IS LIE!!

But yeah, almost all the stars in the NBA are American born. That's something to consider too.

That was not my intent.  Rather I am trying to understand how to calibrate what Yabusele and Zizic are doing vs. some of the touted college prospects.  For example, if Yabusele puts up 25 pts in China, how does that compare to Harry Giles putting up xx against say Maryland in terms of demonstrating their preparedness or potential for the NBA. 

The top talent in the NCAA is the top of course but there is also a drop off and over the 30 games that say Duke plays, they play some cupcakes.  I think the top European pro leagues are a higher level than the NCAA and if a 19 year old was a top player in one of those leagues, that is probably a top lottery pick.

Bender never really played at the top level.  He was a risky pick  but nearly all picks are risky.  I think Zizic is playing well enough in a competitive enough league to show he is ready for the NBA, as ready as all but the top of the top of NCAA prospects.  Yabusele is harder to gauge and that is what this feedback is helping me get a feel for.

I think it might help to look at some examples, here's some CBA stats, and you can see many US players dominating the list.  Throwing up there NCAA stats for comparison.

Jimmer Fredette
Age 21, BYU: 35.8mpg, 28.9ppg, 3.4rpg, 4.3apg, .452/.396/.894
Age 27, CBA: 41.9mpg, 39.5ppg, 9.1rpg, 4.9apg, .505/.412/.921

MarShon Brooks
Age 22, Providence, 36.5mpg, 24.6ppg, 7.0rpg, 2.5apg, .483/.340/.772
Age 28, CBA, 39.3mpg, 35.7ppg, 6.2rpg, 4.1apg, .509/.436/.864

Lester Hudson
Age 24, UT-Martin, 36.0mpg, 27.5ppg, 7.9rpg, 4.2apg, .449/.355/.881
Age 32, CBA, 42.2mpg, 32.6ppg, 7.5rpg, 4.3apg, .454/.370/.901

Malcolm Thomas
Age 22, San Diego St, 30.4mpg, 11.4ppg, 8.1rpg, 2.3apg, .536,.167/.642
Age 28, CBA, 38.9mpg, 22.7ppg, 16.9rpg, 3.5apg, .542/.376/.678

JJ Hickson
Age 19, NC State, 28.7mpg, 14.8ppg, 8.5rpg, 1.0apg, .591/.000/.677
Age 28, CBA, 37.6mpg, 27.1ppg, 13.7rpg, 1.8apg, .543/.200/.704

Jason Thompson
Age 21, Rider, 34.6mpg, 20.4ppg, 12.1rpg. 2.7apg, .560/.324/.581
Age 30, CBA, 35.3mpg, 20.1ppg, 13.6rpg, 2.1apg, .560/.235/.675

You can poke around here for more CBA stats, even see the box scores for all the games.  Most teams have maybe 1-3 non-Chinese players per team, and those non-Chinese players are typically by far the best players on the team.  To me the CBA seems like it's generally worse than mid-major college basketball.  Often times it's like watching 2 college teams made up of 1 pro prospect each (who don't match up against each other) and a bunch of other guys who have no future in pro ball go at it. 

Another thing you can do is look for teams with former NBA players that Yabusele might match up against, and look at the highlights to see how he does against former NBA talent, since Youtuber Tomasz Kordylewski is pretty awesome about posting highlight videos (wonder if he hangs out over here).  What I see in the former NBA talent though is not encouraging, terrible D, rotations, close outs, lack of effort, etc.

Yabusele vs:
Josh Smith (who plays for Sichuan)
Carlos Boozer (who plays for Guangdong)
Jason Thompson (who plays for Shandong)
Dejuan Blair (who plays for Jiangsu)

[Vermont Green]

Jimmer Fredette
Age 21, BYU: 35.8mpg, 28.9ppg, 3.4rpg, 4.3apg, .452/.396/.894
Age 27, CBA: 41.9mpg, 39.5ppg, 9.1rpg, 4.9apg, .505/.412/.921

MarShon Brooks
Age 22, Providence, 36.5mpg, 24.6ppg, 7.0rpg, 2.5apg, .483/.340/.772
Age 28, CBA, 39.3mpg, 35.7ppg, 6.2rpg, 4.1apg, .509/.436/.864

Lester Hudson
Age 24, UT-Martin, 36.0mpg, 27.5ppg, 7.9rpg, 4.2apg, .449/.355/.881
Age 32, CBA, 42.2mpg, 32.6ppg, 7.5rpg, 4.3apg, .454/.370/.901

Malcolm Thomas
Age 22, San Diego St, 30.4mpg, 11.4ppg, 8.1rpg, 2.3apg, .536,.167/.642
Age 28, CBA, 38.9mpg, 22.7ppg, 16.9rpg, 3.5apg, .542/.376/.678

JJ Hickson
Age 19, NC State, 28.7mpg, 14.8ppg, 8.5rpg, 1.0apg, .591/.000/.677
Age 28, CBA, 37.6mpg, 27.1ppg, 13.7rpg, 1.8apg, .543/.200/.704

Jason Thompson
Age 21, Rider, 34.6mpg, 20.4ppg, 12.1rpg. 2.7apg, .560/.324/.581
Age 30, CBA, 35.3mpg, 20.1ppg, 13.6rpg, 2.1apg, .560/.235/.675

This is interesting.  Taking Jimmer for example, at his current age (27), you would expect him to do better in the CBA than he would have at College age (21).  Put him on a college team today and I think he would dominate college more than he did when he was actually in college.  That said, he is clearly dominating the CBA.  These stats along with what others have said make it pretty clear that the competition in China is limited and any player with NBA ambitions better be dominating in China.

Now Yabusele at 21 is still a different story than Jimmer at 27 or Marshon Brooks at 28.  I am sure that Yabusele is getting better but it is pretty hard to draw any real conclusion about his play or readiness for the NBA.  He might be a couple of years away.

[Vermont Green]

Yabusele vs:
Josh Smith (who plays for Sichuan)
Carlos Boozer (who plays for Guangdong)
Jason Thompson (who plays for Shandong)
Dejuan Blair (who plays for Jiangsu)

Great vids by the way.  Thanks for posting these.  He looks good.  Nice stroke.  Seems to understand the game.  He looked like he was tired a lot so I think he may need some fitness work and there was also a little to much posing after 3 pts shots for my liking but these are fixable things.  I really liked what I saw on those clips.  I think he would be a star if he was in the NCAA right now.