Isaiah Thomas is averaging 26.7 points and 6 assists a game...is he a top 8 PG?

[mctyson]

Definitely ahead:

Curry
Westbrook
Harden (if he counts)
Paul

Arguable:

Lowry
Irving
Lillard
Kemba
Wall

He's somewhere in there.

I would say Lowry and Irving have to be ahead given that their teams are better, and they tend to play better in head-to-head. 

Kemba and IT are basically the same player.

I have really soured on John Wall and I don't think I would trade IT for him straight up right now.

[Csfan1984]

Way I have it is in groups where guys can be switched based on needs its 1-2 then 3-6 and 7-9.

1-2. Westbrook and Curry

3-6 CP3, Lowry, Irving, Lillard

7-9. Thomas, Wall, Walker

10. Dragic

Honorable mentions but outside the top 10 clearly (due to dropped or unsustainable play).
Hill, Conley, Teague, Parker, Bledsoe

I would absolutely take Conley over Walker, Dragic, and probably IT.  Might take him over Lillard and Wall too.  Unlike a lot of the names on this list, he plays both ends of the court, and is serially underrated on an annual basis.

Nah Conley was underrated four years ago now he is overrated. His defense hasn't been the same since the injuries and taking on more offense. He also keeps getting hurt at the end of the year. I wouldn't take him over any of the guys listed in the top 10.

[saltlover]

Way I have it is in groups where guys can be switched based on needs its 1-2 then 3-6 and 7-9.

1-2. Westbrook and Curry

3-6 CP3, Lowry, Irving, Lillard

7-9. Thomas, Wall, Walker

10. Dragic

Honorable mentions but outside the top 10 clearly (due to dropped or unsustainable play).
Hill, Conley, Teague, Parker, Bledsoe

I would absolutely take Conley over Walker, Dragic, and probably IT.  Might take him over Lillard and Wall too.  Unlike a lot of the names on this list, he plays both ends of the court, and is serially underrated on an annual basis.

Nah Conley was underrated four years ago now he is overrated. His defense hasn't been the same since the injuries and taking on more offense. He also keeps getting hurt at the end of the year. I wouldn't take him over any of the guys listed in the top 10.

It is still better than all the others I mentioned.  He might not be all-NBA defense anymore, but he's not a matador like Wall and Lillard, and doesn't have the size liability like IT.  With the glut of poor PG defense in the NBA, I sometimes wonder if the amazing offense we see from them is a bit inflated.

[bdm860]

I think you have to put Conley ahead of IT, but its a fine line. Needless to say after the top tier their is definitely a debate who should come next.. Thomas is definitely in the conversation.

Why do you have to? I disagree, but I'd like to hear your reasoning for why.

Never averaged over 17.9 ppg. Never averaged over 6.5 apg.

Thomas is averaging more points, assists, and less turnovers than Conley. Conley is a good defender, but not an elite one. He is a good player, but not a guy who can win a game for you.

Some of the reasoning might be fit.  This is from an article based on Chris Mannix talking about the appeal of Avery Bradley and Isaiah Thomas to other GMs:

1. According to Mannix, Bradley was "by far the most popular" Celtics guard among the interviewed front-office figures. The reasoning: his strengths could benefit any team, whereas Thomas only makes sense in a more specific role.

2. Other teams want Thomas, too, but might have concerns about his ability to fit in next to other top scorers. One scout told Mannix: "Boston plays through him, and it works. But would he be happy scoring 12 points a night and winning, or does he need to put up All-Star numbers? I just don't know."

Not saying I agree or disagree, but I understand the point.  I think the thought might be that Conley is going to give you 17/6 and good D on just about any team in the league.  You're not going to find him in a situation where a team would rather play Bledsoe or Dragic over him.  Same thing with guys like John Wall, Damian Lillard, Kyrie Irving, etc.  You put them on just about any team and you're going to get 20ppg, even if you paired them with Harden, Westbrook, or Paul.

Then you have Thomas who the Kings didn't think should be their starting PG and brought in Greivis Vasquez and then Darren Collison to replace him.  Thomas is a guy who was the odd man out in Phoenix behind Bledsoe and Dragic.  Thomas is a guy Brad Stevens thought should come off the bench behind Marcus Smart.  That's never happening with other guys mentioned as top PGs.

Now I love Thomas, love watching him play, love him being "disrespected" in conversations like this, but I can see how a lot of people think he's just a better version of Jamal Crawford in a good situation.

I understand that reasoning, but would the same thing be said about Lillard? Is he willing to score 12 a night? Is he willing to come off the bench?

Of course not, because any team that does that to him would not be using his talents well. And yet every stay other than 5'9'' says the Thomas is a comparable player to Lillard. A good coach, unlike the Suns or the Kings coaches, use their players in a way to benefit their team the most. They don't get caught up on superficial things or peg players in roles because of height.

I get the point and I'm not arguing against you, but against that line of thinking.

I think it's less about being willing, and more about what would be asked.

If Damian Lillard, Mike Conley, John Wall, etc. got traded to the Spurs for nothing, they instantly become the starting pg.  Now if Isaiah did, he's more likely to be asked to come off the bench.

Repeat that exercise across every team in the league.  Even good teams with crowded backcourts.  Mike Conley goes to the Raptors for nothing, they're moving DeRozen to SF so Conley and Lowry can share the backcourt.  If Isaiah goes to the Raptors, they're bringing him off the bench.

Even average-to-bad teams.  If Isaiah landed in Washington for nothing, how likely is it that their coach would push Beal to SF so Thomas and Wall could share the backcourt?  Personally, I think it's a lot less likely than if it's Conley or Lillard or Irving arriving in Washington.

While Isaiah would certainly instantly start for most teams, there's still a lot of teams that wouldn't rework their lineup/strategy to fit him in.  Most other PGs in this conversation though, the coahces/GMs wouldn't think twice about fitting them into their starting lineup somehow.

Fair or not, I just think this is the way Isaiah is viewed across the league.

[Csfan1984]

Way I have it is in groups where guys can be switched based on needs its 1-2 then 3-6 and 7-9.

1-2. Westbrook and Curry

3-6 CP3, Lowry, Irving, Lillard

7-9. Thomas, Wall, Walker

10. Dragic

Honorable mentions but outside the top 10 clearly (due to dropped or unsustainable play).
Hill, Conley, Teague, Parker, Bledsoe

I would absolutely take Conley over Walker, Dragic, and probably IT.  Might take him over Lillard and Wall too.  Unlike a lot of the names on this list, he plays both ends of the court, and is serially underrated on an annual basis.

Nah Conley was underrated four years ago now he is overrated. His defense hasn't been the same since the injuries and taking on more offense. He also keeps getting hurt at the end of the year. I wouldn't take him over any of the guys listed in the top 10.

It is still better than all the others I mentioned.  He might not be all-NBA defense anymore, but he's not a matador like Wall and Lillard, and doesn't have the size liability like IT.  With the glut of poor PG defense in the NBA, I sometimes wonder if the amazing offense we see from them is a bit inflated.

Thing is against any of those PGs he will be in the minus. As his D and O isn't on par with just their offense. The entire league at every position is lacking in defensive players due to the rules. You have to have freak size or athleticism to be able to lock guys down now a days. This is because you are not allowed to play physical and must stay off your man or beat him to the spot. Conley can't beat elite Pgs to the spot any more same with CP3. But CP3 still has elite offense and a lot of experience to remain in the top.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I think you have to put Conley ahead of IT, but its a fine line. Needless to say after the top tier their is definitely a debate who should come next.. Thomas is definitely in the conversation.

Why do you have to? I disagree, but I'd like to hear your reasoning for why.

Never averaged over 17.9 ppg. Never averaged over 6.5 apg.

Thomas is averaging more points, assists, and less turnovers than Conley. Conley is a good defender, but not an elite one. He is a good player, but not a guy who can win a game for you.

Some of the reasoning might be fit.  This is from an article based on Chris Mannix talking about the appeal of Avery Bradley and Isaiah Thomas to other GMs:

1. According to Mannix, Bradley was "by far the most popular" Celtics guard among the interviewed front-office figures. The reasoning: his strengths could benefit any team, whereas Thomas only makes sense in a more specific role.

2. Other teams want Thomas, too, but might have concerns about his ability to fit in next to other top scorers. One scout told Mannix: "Boston plays through him, and it works. But would he be happy scoring 12 points a night and winning, or does he need to put up All-Star numbers? I just don't know."

Not saying I agree or disagree, but I understand the point.  I think the thought might be that Conley is going to give you 17/6 and good D on just about any team in the league.  You're not going to find him in a situation where a team would rather play Bledsoe or Dragic over him.  Same thing with guys like John Wall, Damian Lillard, Kyrie Irving, etc.  You put them on just about any team and you're going to get 20ppg, even if you paired them with Harden, Westbrook, or Paul.

Then you have Thomas who the Kings didn't think should be their starting PG and brought in Greivis Vasquez and then Darren Collison to replace him.  Thomas is a guy who was the odd man out in Phoenix behind Bledsoe and Dragic.  Thomas is a guy Brad Stevens thought should come off the bench behind Marcus Smart.  That's never happening with other guys mentioned as top PGs.

Now I love Thomas, love watching him play, love him being "disrespected" in conversations like this, but I can see how a lot of people think he's just a better version of Jamal Crawford in a good situation.

I understand that reasoning, but would the same thing be said about Lillard? Is he willing to score 12 a night? Is he willing to come off the bench?

Of course not, because any team that does that to him would not be using his talents well. And yet every stay other than 5'9'' says the Thomas is a comparable player to Lillard. A good coach, unlike the Suns or the Kings coaches, use their players in a way to benefit their team the most. They don't get caught up on superficial things or peg players in roles because of height.

I get the point and I'm not arguing against you, but against that line of thinking.

I think it's less about being willing, and more about what would be asked.

If Damian Lillard, Mike Conley, John Wall, etc. got traded to the Spurs for nothing, they instantly become the starting pg.  Now if Isaiah did, he's more likely to be asked to come off the bench.

Repeat that exercise across every team in the league.  Even good teams with crowded backcourts.  Mike Conley goes to the Raptors for nothing, they're moving DeRozen to SF so Conley and Lowry can share the backcourt.  If Isaiah goes to the Raptors, they're bringing him off the bench.

Even average-to-bad teams.  If Isaiah landed in Washington for nothing, how likely is it that their coach would push Beal to SF so Thomas and Wall could share the backcourt?  Personally, I think it's a lot less likely than if it's Conley or Lillard or Irving arriving in Washington.

While Isaiah would certainly instantly start for most teams, there's still a lot of teams that wouldn't rework their lineup/strategy to fit him in.  Most other PGs in this conversation though, the coahces/GMs wouldn't think twice about fitting them into their starting lineup somehow.

Fair or not, I just think this is the way Isaiah is viewed across the league.

Again, I know you are talking situationally that Bradley could fit more places than Thomas, but I disagree. The Spurs would love to have Thomas as their starting point guard. It's their weakest position.

I get your point. I do think that Thomas is changing minds around the league, though. His efficiency this year is literally historic. I posted that yesterday.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88216.15

[Smitty77]

IT's player efficiency rating (26.00) is higher than the following PG's:

Kemba:  22.71
Curry:  24.53 (granted, Curry is still the superior player, but still very impressive that IT is higher)
Wall:  24.31
Lillard:  24.99
Kyrie:  22.15
Lowry:  22.97

I realize that PER is not everything, but IT is a comparable defender to all in that list sans Curry.

Smitty77

[chilidawg]

I love IT, but he's not a comparable defender to Wall or Lowry.

[MasterEmile]

Curry, Westbrook and Cp3 are definitely better.
Thomas and Kyrie are 4 and 5.

[walker834]

this is why i need to shut off the internet.  People are too into stats.  what has westbrook done in his career besides put up a lot of numbers and hog the ball?

The C's are utilizing IT well.  Lillard is another guy who gets underrated imo.

Curry is on a big stage and everyone loves him.

IT is just getting a shot at being on a good team for the first time in his career. 

How people define best is whacky.  I wouldn't want any of you on my team either the way you define it.

MOst of you don't even comprehend what celtics basketball is.

[Monkhouse]

this is why i need to shut off the internet.  People are too into stats.  what has westbrook done in his career besides put up a lot of numbers and hog the ball?

The C's are utilizing IT well.  Lillard is another guy who gets underrated imo.

Curry is on a big stage and everyone loves him.

IT is just getting a shot at being on a good team for the first time in his career. 

How people define best is whacky.  I wouldn't want any of you on my team either the way you define it.

MOst of you don't even comprehend what celtics basketball is.

Easy there, buddy...

Saying stuff like that is pretty messed up.

I'm a stat head, but there are times where statistics can be misleading, but don't be saying things like that so easily. Respect is earned where respect is given.

And Westbrook is better than Isaiah Thomas, and if you don't agree with that, then I really don't know what to tell ya.

[jambr380]

this is why i need to shut off the internet.  People are too into stats.  what has westbrook done in his career besides put up a lot of numbers and hog the ball?

The C's are utilizing IT well.  Lillard is another guy who gets underrated imo.

Curry is on a big stage and everyone loves him.

IT is just getting a shot at being on a good team for the first time in his career. 

How people define best is whacky.  I wouldn't want any of you on my team either the way you define it.

MOst of you don't even comprehend what celtics basketball is.

You have been a serious downer lately. Why are you so intelligent, while everybody else is an apparent numbskull? Perhaps you should post a little less frequently and in a more direct manner, rather than the verbose string of consciousness tears you have been rattling off.

[Ilikesports17]

this is why i need to shut off the internet.  People are too into stats.  what has westbrook done in his career besides put up a lot of numbers and hog the ball?

The C's are utilizing IT well.  Lillard is another guy who gets underrated imo.

Curry is on a big stage and everyone loves him.

IT is just getting a shot at being on a good team for the first time in his career. 

How people define best is whacky.  I wouldn't want any of you on my team either the way you define it.

MOst of you don't even comprehend what celtics basketball is.

You have been a serious downer lately. Why are you so intelligent, while everybody else is an apparent numbskull? Perhaps you should post a little less frequently and in a more direct manner, rather than the verbose string of consciousness tears you have been rattling off.

shhh Walker is better than you. its funny like that in a way that you dont get it hes just better than you sometimes in ways.

[walker834]

this is why i need to shut off the internet.  People are too into stats.  what has westbrook done in his career besides put up a lot of numbers and hog the ball?

The C's are utilizing IT well.  Lillard is another guy who gets underrated imo.

Curry is on a big stage and everyone loves him.

IT is just getting a shot at being on a good team for the first time in his career. 

How people define best is whacky.  I wouldn't want any of you on my team either the way you define it.

MOst of you don't even comprehend what celtics basketball is.

You have been a serious downer lately. Why are you so intelligent, while everybody else is an apparent numbskull? Perhaps you should post a little less frequently and in a more direct manner, rather than the verbose string of consciousness tears you have been rattling off.

shhh Walker is better than you. its funny like that in a way that you dont get it hes just better than you sometimes in ways.

no it's more just funny the stuff you assume.  respect is earned.  you are a generation of turds and the stuff you say to me is disrespectful.  You think you are better than people.

I'm not even saying what you think i am.  Your response is telling though. Apoligize. 

You are an ignorant person is more like it.

Keep it up though.

[jbpats]

this is why i need to shut off the internet.  People are too into stats.  what has westbrook done in his career besides put up a lot of numbers and hog the ball?

The C's are utilizing IT well.  Lillard is another guy who gets underrated imo.

Curry is on a big stage and everyone loves him.

IT is just getting a shot at being on a good team for the first time in his career. 

How people define best is whacky.  I wouldn't want any of you on my team either the way you define it.

MOst of you don't even comprehend what celtics basketball is.

I absolutely know what Celtics basketball is, I just think there are different types of fans. Some are stat heads, i for one am not, I get proven wrong with stats time and time again.. even though I am a firm believer stats don't tell the whole story.
I like to believe I understand basketball and the cohesiveness of a good team. Like a previous post mentioned there are two types of point guards in the NBA, score first and facilitators and comparing the two is like apples to oranges, I think I agree with that post more than any other.
Thomas works on the Celtics because we don't have any other great scoring options, but would be a terrible fit on the Cavs.
I hope everyone on this forum are Celtics fans, why else would we spend time on here debating topics? There are definitely different flavors of Celtics fans, and different opinions on players or on the direction this team should go. There is no need to belittle anybody on here because of that.
It always amazes me how some people around here get upset or offended by topics or posts. It’s a Celtics forum, it’s made for debate, why can’t we just debate ideas and topics without people cutting each other down?