Should Otto Porter be a potential max FA target?

[Smartacus]

Eh, I met similar resistance on this board last year when I proposed Sullinger and Young for Porter.  I shouldn't be surprised how this thread has turned out.  Living in DC, I've seen a lot of Porter, and am both very comfortable with his skillset today, as well as his continued progression, moreso than most posters here.

I used to be all over the send uncle Jeff Green home to the Wizards for a sophomore Porter. Jeff is a Georgetown guy and seemed like he could have been the missing link on a Wall/Beal team.

I like OP's game and it's fit with this team. Maybe still a bit redundant with Horford since neither have a shoot first mindset, but it would solidify our starting lineup and give us options at the wing.

Don't think he'd stunt Jaylen's value since Brown's big enough that a Jaylen/Porter/Horford frontline would be just enough to bang with most modern frontcourts and versatile enough to shoot them off the floor.

Don't think Crowder's good enough to worry about a superior player coming in to take his spot. If this is actually who Porter is now he's about 2 tiers higher than Jae. Crowder and his contract are also some of our most attactive trade chips since he's cost controlled and would be an immediate upgrade over the backup or starting wing situation of almost every team in the league.

Still would rather have Hayward but Otto Porter would be much more than just a conciliation prize. Imo he's a legitimate max target option this summer.

Did you type that Porter is TWO FREAKING TIERS higher than Crowder with a straight face???

Here are Porter's rankings at SF:  defensive RPM = 12th, overall RPM = 7th, and WINS = 7th.

Here are Crowder's ranking at SF:  defensive RPM = 10th, overall RPM = 8th, and WINS = 10th.

There are virtually IDENTICAL!!!

Please stick with the facts and NOT an opinion!!!!

Smitty77

This is a forum where I express my opinion, statistics and facts go into the forming of that opinion but we don't give contracts based only on where players are at the moment, we base them on what they are projected to become.

I've been expressing my opinion since we attained him that Crowder has far exceeded my expectations but I view him as functionally maxed out of his potential. He's not going to suddenly start jumping higher or gain a quicker first step. His shot's improved but the athletic differences between him and the elite are massive and not going anywhere.

Crowder - Birth date 07/06/1990
2012   NBA Draft Combine   6' 4.75"   6' 6.5"   241   6' 9.25"   8' 3.5"   9.0   31.0   34.5
Porter - Birth date  06/03/1993
2013   NBA Draft Combine   6' 7.5"   6' 8.5"   198   7' 1.5"   8' 9.5"   6.7   27.0   36.0
Source: Draftexpress

Crowder had a more impressive no step vert than Porter but in every other athletic measurement Porter crushes him especially in Standing reach which is all important for a SF/PF/C. Just because we're no longer in the draft process doesn't mean these measurements won't get factored into the metrics when drawing up contracts.

Then there's long term health to consider. Determining the likelihood of how healthy a player will stay is not magic, you just have to look at how they move. Watching Crowder run reminds me of this excellent True hoop post from years back. http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/25570/how-lebron-james-and-dwyane-wade-run
The post details how Lebron James' fluid running style is one of the greatest determining factors to explain how he has remained so incredibly healthy his career, where Dwayne Wade's high stress causing gate almost certainly contributed to the nasty injuries that he's suffered throughout his career.

While I'm no expert on physiology, Crowder's running style reminds me of Wade in this case where Porter is a naturally fluid mover. Over the course of an 82 game season the importance of efficiency of a player's movement is magnified ten fold. But don't just listen to me ask Crowder himself.

But it’s very frustrating for me to happen, my ankles," Crowder said. "It seems they’re getting weaker but I’m trying to build them up as much as possible, just trying to build everything around them. Build it up for the long haul this season."

Jae Crowder 11/7/2016

So yes at this moment they are putting up near identical stats, but Porter's doing this at a full 3 years younger. My tiers comment isn't based on where they are today as players, it's based one what tier of wing prospect they are and in this case Otto Porter is absolutely at least 2 tiers higher than Jae Crowder. That's why Otto Porter is a max contract and Crowder is a value contract.

[Smitty77]

And yet another thing to remember is that Otto is 6'8" and ONLY weighs 198lbs.!!!!  Jae outweighs him by 37 freaking pounds!!!  Could you imagine Porter TRYING to keep Lebron out of the post:-))))))

Porter is not an upgrade in my OPINION:-))  That is worth nothing, I realize.  You can make a small argument that Porter might be a slight improvement, but at more than 3 times the price!!!  And you in NO WAY know that Otto would thrive in our system in Boston.  Crowder is thriving or at least playing solid and is arguably a top 10 player at his position and he CAN guard PF's.  Porter simply CANNOT guard PF's!!!

Versatility is where the NBA is heading or simply where it currently IS!!!

Smitty77

[Smartacus]

And yet another thing to remember is that Otto is 6'8" and ONLY weighs 198lbs.!!!!  Jae outweighs him by 37 freaking pounds!!!  Could you imagine Porter TRYING to keep Lebron out of the post:-))))))

Porter is not an upgrade in my OPINION:-))  That is worth nothing, I realize.  You can make a small argument that Porter might be a slight improvement, but at more than 3 times the price!!!  And you in NO WAY know that Otto would thrive in our system in Boston.  Crowder is thriving or at least playing solid and is arguably a top 10 player at his position and he CAN guard PF's.  Porter simply CANNOT guard PF's!!!

Versatility is where the NBA is heading or simply where it currently IS!!!

Smitty77

Haha suppose i was bit heavy handed with the OPINION!!!! jargan TP Smitty 

Could I imagine Otto Porter trying to keep Lebron out of the post? About as well I could imagine Crowder trying to keep up with Lebron on the break or perimeter. I don't see a world where Porter's length wouldn't at least bother Lebron and Crowder's post defense on Lebron would null in void if he's nursing a sore ankle on the bench.

I don't "know" that Porter would thrive in our system it's just an OPINION. I've been wrestling with the idea of Porter for a while now and was thinking of making this thread myself when I had a better handle on how I viewed it, but what I see in Porter's game is built for pace and space.

-He plays primarily off the ball leaving Isaiah and Bradley free to let it fly.
-He can switch 1-4 quickly and effectively since that crazy wingspan allows him to close distance in a heartbeat.
- He's got that Hoford-esque quiet, confident demeanor that would fit well with the coach and makeup of the team.

Otto Porter costing 3 times as much as Crowder wouldn't make him overpaid, it just reinforces that Crowder is underpaid. It's not automatically a bad move to pay a player what the market dictates that he's worth simply because you already have a serviceable option at the same position.

Like I said, not that I'm trying to run Crowder out of town, but I am convinced that there is a deal waiting out there for something centered around Crowder or Brown + the 2018 Brooklyn Pick. Isn't Porter and say for argument sake someone like Lamarcus Aldrige, Blake Griffin, Demarcus Cousins, better than our current roster + Crowder and the draft pick?

Isaiah/Rozier
Bradley/Smart
Porter/Brown/Nader
Aldridge-Griffin-Cousins/Jerebko/Yabusele
Horford/Zizic
(Insert 2017 Nets Pick)

That's a lineup that could finally put some fear of God in the NBA elite and could do some real damage if schemed correctly. Does it put us over the Cavs or Warriors? Probably not but it puts us in the conversation.

[Somebody]

And yet another thing to remember is that Otto is 6'8" and ONLY weighs 198lbs.!!!!  Jae outweighs him by 37 freaking pounds!!!  Could you imagine Porter TRYING to keep Lebron out of the post:-))))))

Porter is not an upgrade in my OPINION:-))  That is worth nothing, I realize.  You can make a small argument that Porter might be a slight improvement, but at more than 3 times the price!!!  And you in NO WAY know that Otto would thrive in our system in Boston.  Crowder is thriving or at least playing solid and is arguably a top 10 player at his position and he CAN guard PF's.  Porter simply CANNOT guard PF's!!!

Versatility is where the NBA is heading or simply where it currently IS!!!

Smitty77

Haha suppose i was bit heavy handed with the OPINION!!!! jargan TP Smitty 

Could I imagine Otto Porter trying to keep Lebron out of the post? About as well I could imagine Crowder trying to keep up with Lebron on the break or perimeter. I don't see a world where Porter's length wouldn't at least bother Lebron and Crowder's post defense on Lebron would null in void if he's nursing a sore ankle on the bench.

I don't "know" that Porter would thrive in our system it's just an OPINION. I've been wrestling with the idea of Porter for a while now and was thinking of making this thread myself when I had a better handle on how I viewed it, but what I see in Porter's game is built for pace and space.

-He plays primarily off the ball leaving Isaiah and Bradley free to let it fly.
-He can switch 1-4 quickly and effectively since that crazy wingspan allows him to close distance in a heartbeat.
- He's got that Hoford-esque quiet, confident demeanor that would fit well with the coach and makeup of the team.

Otto Porter costing 3 times as much as Crowder wouldn't make him overpaid, it just reinforces that Crowder is underpaid. It's not automatically a bad move to pay a player what the market dictates that he's worth simply because you already have a serviceable option at the same position.

Like I said, not that I'm trying to run Crowder out of town, but I am convinced that there is a deal waiting out there for something centered around Crowder or Brown + the 2018 Brooklyn Pick. Isn't Porter and say for argument sake someone like Lamarcus Aldrige, Blake Griffin, Demarcus Cousins, better than our current roster + Crowder and the draft pick?

Isaiah/Rozier
Bradley/Smart
Porter/Brown/Nader
Aldridge-Griffin-Cousins/Jerebko/Yabusele
Horford/Zizic
(Insert 2017 Nets Pick)

That's a lineup that could finally put some fear of God in the NBA elite and could do some real damage if schemed correctly. Does it put us over the Cavs or Warriors? Probably not but it puts us in the conversation.

Well if signing Porter gives us that without sacrificing both Brooklyn picks I'd go for it. And that roster would really be a contender, (suppose the PF is Griffin) we'd have a very versatile team that can play at both ends of the floor (looks at golden state*) and has good enough depth to be able to use the 70s run and gun style to wear both teams down in a playoff series, taking advantage of their LACK of depth. I'd say we'd be the favourites with that team ,slightly above CLE and GS

[Smitty77]

And yet another thing to remember is that Otto is 6'8" and ONLY weighs 198lbs.!!!!  Jae outweighs him by 37 freaking pounds!!!  Could you imagine Porter TRYING to keep Lebron out of the post:-))))))

Porter is not an upgrade in my OPINION:-))  That is worth nothing, I realize.  You can make a small argument that Porter might be a slight improvement, but at more than 3 times the price!!!  And you in NO WAY know that Otto would thrive in our system in Boston.  Crowder is thriving or at least playing solid and is arguably a top 10 player at his position and he CAN guard PF's.  Porter simply CANNOT guard PF's!!!

Versatility is where the NBA is heading or simply where it currently IS!!!

Smitty77

Haha suppose i was bit heavy handed with the OPINION!!!! jargan TP Smitty 

Could I imagine Otto Porter trying to keep Lebron out of the post? About as well I could imagine Crowder trying to keep up with Lebron on the break or perimeter. I don't see a world where Porter's length wouldn't at least bother Lebron and Crowder's post defense on Lebron would null in void if he's nursing a sore ankle on the bench.

I don't "know" that Porter would thrive in our system it's just an OPINION. I've been wrestling with the idea of Porter for a while now and was thinking of making this thread myself when I had a better handle on how I viewed it, but what I see in Porter's game is built for pace and space.

-He plays primarily off the ball leaving Isaiah and Bradley free to let it fly.
-He can switch 1-4 quickly and effectively since that crazy wingspan allows him to close distance in a heartbeat.
- He's got that Hoford-esque quiet, confident demeanor that would fit well with the coach and makeup of the team.

Otto Porter costing 3 times as much as Crowder wouldn't make him overpaid, it just reinforces that Crowder is underpaid. It's not automatically a bad move to pay a player what the market dictates that he's worth simply because you already have a serviceable option at the same position.

Like I said, not that I'm trying to run Crowder out of town, but I am convinced that there is a deal waiting out there for something centered around Crowder or Brown + the 2018 Brooklyn Pick. Isn't Porter and say for argument sake someone like Lamarcus Aldrige, Blake Griffin, Demarcus Cousins, better than our current roster + Crowder and the draft pick?

Isaiah/Rozier
Bradley/Smart
Porter/Brown/Nader
Aldridge-Griffin-Cousins/Jerebko/Yabusele
Horford/Zizic
(Insert 2017 Nets Pick)

That's a lineup that could finally put some fear of God in the NBA elite and could do some real damage if schemed correctly. Does it put us over the Cavs or Warriors? Probably not but it puts us in the conversation.

Lebron is no where near the gazelle that he was in the past.  He is a good one or two steps slower than he even was 4 to 5 years ago.  I think Crowder has shown to be a challenging cover for James!!!  I have NOT seen Porter guard James and he likely would NOT be tasked with that assignment in Washington, so I am not sure how he HAS done with this.

I am SCARED to death of Griffin due to his unreal injury history or late and his meltdown during a stinking card game on a plane.  Wow, imagine IF Cousins had done this:-))))  But, pretty boy Blake basically gets a pass on destroying a Clipper employee's face on a plane.

Sorry to digress.

Smitty77

[Smitty77]

My main concern with Porter beyond his very lean build is that he has NOT done it for long enough to EARN such a contract!!

Smitty77

[apc]

So the Wizards have two max players in Wall and Beal, one potential max player in Porter. and they are not even a playoff team as of now.
Something is wrong here. 

[CelticGuardian]

My main concern with Porter beyond his very lean build is that he has NOT done it for long enough to EARN such a contract!!

Smitty77

Didn't Bradley get a big contract after breaking out on the last year of his rookie deal? He produced therefore he's getting paid.

[saltlover]

My main concern with Porter beyond his very lean build is that he has NOT done it for long enough to EARN such a contract!!

Smitty77

Didn't Bradley get a big contract after breaking out on the last year of his rookie deal? He produced therefore he's getting paid.

Bradley is underpaid because he continued to grow after signing the deal.  A good chunk of the board thought he was vastly overpaid when he signed it.  By year 2 of the deal most had come around, and now in year 3 he's an incredible bargain, with another year still to come.

[saltlover]

So the Wizards have two max players in Wall and Beal, one potential max player in Porter. and they are not even a playoff team as of now.
Something is wrong here.

Terrible terrible bench.  When Wall, Beal, Porter, and Gortat are on the floor, they outscore opponents by 8.9 points per 100 possessions. Bench guys come in, and they lose.

[bopna]

Hell NO

[wdleehi]

Final no from the Celtics point of view. 


Celtics have two sf that need minutes.  Where does Porters fit? 

Yes he can play some minutes at PF but he should not be a PF full time.

[saltlover]

Final no from the Celtics point of view. 


Celtics have two sf that need minutes.  Where does Porters fit? 

Yes he can play some minutes at PF but he should not be a PF full time.

Sure he could, or Crowder or Brown eventually, take your pick.  A lot of teams, and many of the top teams, play a traditional SF at the 4 for large portions of the game.  It's been this way for several years, and Stevens has said for quite some time that he'd like to be able to play that way. more, but he doesn't have the personnel, so instead he runs out three guard lineups with Crowder at the 4.  Porter is starting at the 4 in Washington at this point, and they close the game with him there too.

[Moranis]

I don't think Porter will get the max from anyone, but I see no reason why Boston would even pursue him as he isn't all that much better than Crowder and plays the same position as Brown.  Now sure if Boston made some moves and felt Porter might be the difference maker, that would be one thing, but with basically the same team I don't see the point in signing Porter unless it is a really good deal (which won't happen since Washington would just match).

[wdleehi]

Final no from the Celtics point of view. 


Celtics have two sf that need minutes.  Where does Porters fit? 

Yes he can play some minutes at PF but he should not be a PF full time.

Sure he could, or Crowder or Brown eventually, take your pick.  A lot of teams, and many of the top teams, play a traditional SF at the 4 for large portions of the game.  It's been this way for several years, and Stevens has said for quite some time that he'd like to be able to play that way. more, but he doesn't have the personnel, so instead he runs out three guard lineups with Crowder at the 4.  Porter is starting at the 4 in Washington at this point, and they close the game with him there too.

And outside of LeBron and Green, which team has been successfully outside playing just a few minutes a game? 

Is he the new Barnes on this site to be the  PF?