Bench Minutes/Brad's Rotation

[mgent]

This is how many minutes they had last night:

Jerebko 25
Smart 24
Olynyk 18
Rozier 16
Brown 9

Do you guys generally agree with what Brad's going for here?  Jerebko over KO/Smart?  Rozier over Brown?

I know we won, but I can't help but think they should be rearranged closer to this:

Jerebko 15
Smart 28
Olynyk 24
Rozier 9
Brown 16

With only Smart and Olynyk initiating the offense and driving into the paint.  Sick of watching Jerebko, Zeller, Rozier, and Brown do a lot of fancy screens/curls which ultimately just end up in them throwing a hot potato back and forth around the perimeter until the clock runs out because they don't want to take the shot.  When Amir comes in and plays with the bench (which happens at times because he's the first starter to sit early in the 1st) he adds to that problem a lot more.

Our starters tend to play pretty well, we really just need to figure out how this 2nd unit is going to get it together.  A lot to ask when you've got two 22 year olds and a 20 year old, but I thought they'd be playing together better than this by this point in the season.

[NHCelticsFan]

I would prefer that we just don't play Amir anymore, and distribute his roughly 20 minutes out to the rest of our rotation.  Jonas should get a shot at starting as he seems to be clicking lately.  Amir has done a little on the defensive end, but just doesn't seem to be the right guy right now for the type of system Brad runs.

Having said that, Brad continues to start him, so he must be doing something right from a coaching perspective.

[KGs Knee]

None of the players mentioned in the OP are good enough to warrant any sort of "set" minutes. The minutes of these players will inevitably vary from night to night based on matchups and who has the "hot hand".

This is especially true with Olynyk and Jerebko. Jerebko has proven that he adds value to this team and deserves comparable minutes to Olynyk.

Rozier/Brown are in the sophmore/rookie seasons and thus will have their minutes go up or down with how well they are playing.

If there is one thing I hope Brad gets away from is playing Thomas-Bradley-Smart as a trio. These three are just too undersized as a grouping to be consistently effective. I actually like that Brad has been starting to go with Jerebko more with Thomas-Bradley-Crowder-Horford. We need the additional size.

[mctyson]

Do you guys generally agree with what Brad's going for here?  Jerebko over KO/Smart?  Rozier over Brown?

It is matchup dependent.  In general I want to see KO and Jerebko play more at the 4/5.  Amir can only really give 20 minutes a game, and I don't want to see Zeller that much.  They are our best shooters, and we are a crap shooting team.

[Bobshot]

Rotations probably vary from game to game, depending on the matchups. The problem isn't the rotations--it's more the talent depth. There isn't a whole lot of talent beyond the first 5 or 6 guys. You have to have 8 solid players to win--in the words of Red Auerbach.

[trickybilly]

Ordinarily agee, but Terry is being showcased

[jpotter33]

I like playing JJ more. He's versatile defensively and provides extra shooting, length, athleticism, and physicality. I ultimately think he should be starting and having Amir play mostly against bench players.

Our "death lineup" of IT, AB, Smart, Jae, and Horford is just too small, and we've been beat up with that lineup down the stretch of many games. I'm guessing you'll see more and more of JJ in that lineup that now that Brad has got a good look at the bad numbers that lineup puts up.

I think we need to play Rozier less and Brown more. Both Brown and Smart are very versatile players who can play multiple positions, so I think both of them and KO should be our main bench guys with minutes with Terry and Amir filling in the rest of the minutes. I'd like to see something like this:

PG: IT - 30, Rozier - 10, Smart - 8
SG: AB - 30, Smart - 18
SF: Jae - 25, Brown - 19, Smart - 4
PF: JJ - 25, KO - 18, Jae - 5
C: Horford - 30, Amir - 12, KO - 6

IT, AB, Jae, Horford, and Smart all with 30 minutes;

JJ - 25; KO - 24; Brown - 19; Amir - 12; Rozier - 10

I think you should also try and work Brown in the small-ball 4 at times, too.

[crimson_stallion]

This is how many minutes they had last night:

Jerebko 25
Smart 24
Olynyk 18
Rozier 16
Brown 9

Do you guys generally agree with what Brad's going for here?  Jerebko over KO/Smart?  Rozier over Brown?

I know we won, but I can't help but think they should be rearranged closer to this:

Jerebko 15
Smart 28
Olynyk 24
Rozier 9
Brown 16

With only Smart and Olynyk initiating the offense and driving into the paint.  Sick of watching Jerebko, Zeller, Rozier, and Brown do a lot of fancy screens/curls which ultimately just end up in them throwing a hot potato back and forth around the perimeter until the clock runs out because they don't want to take the shot.  When Amir comes in and plays with the bench (which happens at times because he's the first starter to sit early in the 1st) he adds to that problem a lot more.

Our starters tend to play pretty well, we really just need to figure out how this 2nd unit is going to get it together.  A lot to ask when you've got two 22 year olds and a 20 year old, but I thought they'd be playing together better than this by this point in the season.

Actually, I'd like to see Smart's minutes get cut in a pretty big way. 

Sorry (I know this will get me much hate), but Smart has been pretty terrible this year. 

I don't know what's been worse:
a: His offensive inefficiency (1.02 Points Per FGA)
b: His ghastly shot selection (4.6 3PT attempts @ 27.6%)
c: His woeful overall FG percentage of 37.2% (which is, frighteningly, a career high)
d: His horrible 2.3 Assist:TO ratio (has gotten worse every year so far)
e: His disturbing tenancy to rack up flopping fines

People can't even rave about his "intangible" impact this year, because even his advanced stats have been mediocre:

Def Rating: 108
Off Rating: 96
Ovr Rating: -12
Real Plus Minus: -0.08 (15th among PG)

No matter how you spin it, he's been horribly ho-hum this year and isn't coming close to earning the 30 MPG or so he's been getting.  I'd rather see Smart playing around 20-22 MPG with the extra 8 MPG being shared between Rozier and Brown, who actually have some potential.   

Defense and the midrange game are literally the only areas in which Smart has't been downright terrible. 

I'd also like to see Amir's minutes dropped, as he really is struggling badly.  I'd like to see more minutes to to Olynyk and Jerebko, who seem to be pretty solid.  It's sad to say because I love Amir and the way he goes about his craft, but I think the injuries have reduced him to a fraction of the player he once was.

Ultimately I'd like to see us move Smart and Amir in return for a quality big man who can anchor the paint. 

Sending Smart+Amir to the Sixers for Noel would be nice move that probably helps both teams, and would also clear about $10M in cap space for the Celtics.

Sending Smart + Amir to the Bucks for Monroe would match up salaries near perfect, and would be a major upgrade for us - while Smart would be a great fit alongside Middleton, Giannis, Parkerr and Henson in Milwaukee. 

[tarheelsxxiii]

^wow.  welp, /thread.

/csblog.

[jpotter33]

This is how many minutes they had last night:

Jerebko 25
Smart 24
Olynyk 18
Rozier 16
Brown 9

Do you guys generally agree with what Brad's going for here?  Jerebko over KO/Smart?  Rozier over Brown?

I know we won, but I can't help but think they should be rearranged closer to this:

Jerebko 15
Smart 28
Olynyk 24
Rozier 9
Brown 16

With only Smart and Olynyk initiating the offense and driving into the paint.  Sick of watching Jerebko, Zeller, Rozier, and Brown do a lot of fancy screens/curls which ultimately just end up in them throwing a hot potato back and forth around the perimeter until the clock runs out because they don't want to take the shot.  When Amir comes in and plays with the bench (which happens at times because he's the first starter to sit early in the 1st) he adds to that problem a lot more.

Our starters tend to play pretty well, we really just need to figure out how this 2nd unit is going to get it together.  A lot to ask when you've got two 22 year olds and a 20 year old, but I thought they'd be playing together better than this by this point in the season.

Actually, I'd like to see Smart's minutes get cut in a pretty big way. 

Sorry (I know this will get me much hate), but Smart has been pretty terrible this year. 

I don't know what's been worse:
a: His offensive inefficiency (1.02 Points Per FGA)
b: His ghastly shot selection (4.6 3PT attempts @ 27.6%)
c: His woeful overall FG percentage of 37.2% (which is, frighteningly, a career high)
d: His horrible 2.3 Assist:TO ratio (has gotten worse every year so far)
e: His disturbing tenancy to rack up flopping fines

People can't even rave about his "intangible" impact this year, because even his advanced stats have been mediocre:

Def Rating: 108
Off Rating: 96
Ovr Rating: -12
Real Plus Minus: -0.08 (15th among PG)

No matter how you spin it, he's been horribly ho-hum this year and isn't coming close to earning the 30 MPG or so he's been getting.  I'd rather see Smart playing around 20-22 MPG with the extra 8 MPG being shared between Rozier and Brown, who actually have some potential.   

Defense and the midrange game are literally the only areas in which Smart has't been downright terrible. 

I'd also like to see Amir's minutes dropped, as he really is struggling badly.  I'd like to see more minutes to to Olynyk and Jerebko, who seem to be pretty solid.  It's sad to say because I love Amir and the way he goes about his craft, but I think the injuries have reduced him to a fraction of the player he once was.

Ultimately I'd like to see us move Smart and Amir in return for a quality big man who can anchor the paint. 

Sending Smart+Amir to the Sixers for Noel would be nice move that probably helps both teams, and would also clear about $10M in cap space for the Celtics.

Sending Smart + Amir to the Bucks for Monroe would match up salaries near perfect, and would be a major upgrade for us - while Smart would be a great fit alongside Middleton, Giannis, Parkerr and Henson in Milwaukee.

Once again, context is obviously not your strong suit. And apparently neither is objectivity, because this is about as biased of a presentation of stats as I've ever seen.

You quote Smart's RPM as a count against him, but last I checked for a bench guard to be 15th in the league for his position means he must be doing something right. Oh, and if you're thinking maybe 15th is still pretty crappy, guess who is one spot above him for PGs - IT at 14. Of course, you didn't post that because it doesn't support your overall thesis. Furthermore, Smart is 2nd in PGs in DRPM, but you didn't mention that either. So apparently it's fine to be one-sided and middle of the pack in RPM if you're IT, but not Smart. Is that how it goes?

Also, I just love this quote - "His disturbing tenancy to rack up flopping fines." LOL You realize he's only been fined once for flopping, right? LOL Game 3 against the Hawks is the only fine that I can find for him flopping, but apparently that's a "disturbing tendency to rack up flopping fines." 

It's just crazy how much irrational hate this guy gets around here. You can dislike a guy's game all you want, but when you have to go to the extreme that you're going to to try and discredit and criticize him, I think that's a little ridiculous, especially since he's one of our own Celtics players. Going beyond his game and attacking his character without warrant is absolutely ridiculous, too, as you did in the other thread. You act like he's Boogie or something because he has 4 technical fouls and a flopping fine...

EDIT: And where are you getting these stats from? NBA has his ORTG at 103.3 and DRTG at 102.0 with an overall rating of 1.3.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203935/advanced/

[hagar55voa]

I think it's a shame Zeller gets no playing time...I hope he gets traded so he can get some playing time...

[pearljammer10]

My rotation would be:

IT 32/Smart 16
AB 28/Smart 6/Rozier 14
Crowder 26/Brown 16/Smart 4/Rozier 2
KO 16/Rebko 20/Johnson 12
Horford 30/KO 10/Johnson 8

[KGs Knee]

People can't even rave about his "intangible" impact this year, because even his advanced stats have been mediocre:

Def Rating: 108
Off Rating: 96
Ovr Rating: -12
Real Plus Minus: -0.08 (15th among PG)

EDIT: And where are you getting these stats from? NBA has his ORTG at 103.3 and DRTG at 102.0 with an overall rating of 1.3.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203935/advanced/

The stats are from BBall-Ref (RPM is from ESPN)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01.html

NBA.com and BBall-Ref consistently have different Per 100 numbers for some reason, which I'm guessing is based partly on how they obtain play by play data, as well as how they define a "possession".

I'm not sure who to trust.  I'd be inclined to trust NBA.com stats more, but their advanced player data just recently came back online and there have been numerous bugs in the software which have caused some unusual discrepancies in player data depending on how you sort the data.

[The Oracle]

People can't even rave about his "intangible" impact this year, because even his advanced stats have been mediocre:

Def Rating: 108
Off Rating: 96
Ovr Rating: -12
Real Plus Minus: -0.08 (15th among PG)

EDIT: And where are you getting these stats from? NBA has his ORTG at 103.3 and DRTG at 102.0 with an overall rating of 1.3.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203935/advanced/

The stats are from BBall-Ref (RPM is from ESPN)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01.html

NBA.com and BBall-Ref consistently have different Per 100 numbers for some reason, which I'm guessing is based partly on how they obtain play by play data, as well as how they define a "possession".

I'm not sure who to trust.  I'd be inclined to trust NBA.com stats more, but their advanced player data just recently came back online and there have been numerous bugs in the software which have caused some unusual discrepancies in player data depending on how you sort the data.

The Off. and Def. rating numbers provided on NBA.com are actual Per 100 ratings.  The numbers on BBRef. however are not, they're from a junk formula that someone created and they call it Off. and Def. ratings.  They are derived from box score statistics and if you look at them with the least bit critical of an eye you would find they are complete garbage.

[KGs Knee]

People can't even rave about his "intangible" impact this year, because even his advanced stats have been mediocre:

Def Rating: 108
Off Rating: 96
Ovr Rating: -12
Real Plus Minus: -0.08 (15th among PG)

EDIT: And where are you getting these stats from? NBA has his ORTG at 103.3 and DRTG at 102.0 with an overall rating of 1.3.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203935/advanced/

The stats are from BBall-Ref (RPM is from ESPN)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smartma01.html

NBA.com and BBall-Ref consistently have different Per 100 numbers for some reason, which I'm guessing is based partly on how they obtain play by play data, as well as how they define a "possession".

I'm not sure who to trust.  I'd be inclined to trust NBA.com stats more, but their advanced player data just recently came back online and there have been numerous bugs in the software which have caused some unusual discrepancies in player data depending on how you sort the data.

The Off. and Def. rating numbers provided on NBA.com are actual Per 100 ratings.  The numbers on BBRef. however are not, they're from a junk formula that someone created and they call it Off. and Def. ratings.  They are derived from box score statistics and if you look at them with the least bit critical of an eye you would find they are complete garbage.

Any proof of this? Or is this just speculation?

Truth be told, though, I don't give plus/minus stats and any of their variants forms much attention. They're not really all that good of a means for evaluating a player.