Author Topic: What could we get for IT4  (Read 18586 times)

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Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2016, 02:40:24 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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I'm sorry you don't see the point in this thread and feel like you have to shoot it down. Now that you did can you move to another thread please.

What I'm trying to do is push you to justify your premise.

Are we conducting an audit, here?  Evaluating our assets just for the sake of having an accounting of the team's total trade value?

Or is there an IT-specific point here?

If there is, what is it? Why do you want to have this conversation about his trade value if not to suggest the potential benefit to the team in trading him?

Isn't it on topic, then, to point out that I find it very difficult to envision how it would be beneficial for the team to trade him right now?


Go and pose the question to a bunch of Blazers' fans: "What's Damian Lillard's trade value?"  I imagine you'd get a none-too-friendly reception. 

Because while you could start up that discussion, in theory, and the Blazers could trade him, in theory, it's hard to imagine that being a genuine topic of interest for the Blazers or their fans.  The convo would be a non-starter, because Dame is the heart of that team and any package of assets for him would fail to replace what they'd lose by trading him: a focal point, an identity, a player worth watching on a nightly basis. 

While IT isn't on the same level as Dame -- probably not, anyway -- I don't think the situation with the Celts is that different.
really pho, this was not necessary. the OP specifically told folks what his intended point was. you wrote a post that directly went counter to that point, even though he had asked people to not post exactly what you posted.

you sidetracked a thread. not a sin against nature, but carrying on in this way is unseemly.

let's focus on the point of the thread and move ahead.
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Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2016, 02:46:34 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Sometimes you have to take a half step backward in the very short term to take 2 steps forward in the long term.

I completely understand this concept.  I've argued in favor of moves along those lines many times.

However, signing Al Horford to a max deal at age 30 is inconsistent with this type of move.  You don't sign Horford and then trade away the only other star on the team a few months later in the name of servicing the long term outlook.

In any case, the Celts don't really need to be that concerned with the long term outlook right now.  The Nets trade has guaranteed the team has assets in the pipeline.  Yes, you could add to those assets in theory by looking to trade somebody like IT, but the team already has too many prospects to develop and a surplus of picks.


The big question for the team, and DA, right now is -- Can they add another big piece without sacrificing any of their current primary guys?


You could trade IT.  I don't think you could get a player like Jokic for him, but you could probably get some significant value.


If you're gonna do that, though, I think you'd also have to look at trading Horford, because the team won't contend during his contract if they're trading away Isaiah.  You might as well look to trade AB in that case, too, because his deal will be up in a couple years and he will want a big contract. 

So, then, I suppose the real question here is:

Should the team give up on its current core and go all-out youth movement, with an eye toward the development of Jaylen Brown and the two Nets picks in the pipeline, rather than go for broke trying to add the final piece to this current group?


Personally, my answer is no.  Not yet, at least.  If Ainge can't make anything happen at the deadline this year, or next summer, then this will be a discussion.  At that point, IT and Bradley will have one year left, Horford will be 31, and the younger guys are going to need to start getting paid, beginning with Olynyk.


Even in that scenario, I think it will probably make the most sense to hold onto IT, Crowder, and Horford, make tough decision about the other guys (e.g. KO, AB, Smart, etc), and hope that the younger players develop in a way that dovetails nicely with the inevitable decline of those aforementioned core guys.


IT, Crowder, Horford should be good for 45-55 wins for the next 3-4 seasons after this one.  While that's not the contending powerhouse we want, it's still possible the Celts could make that leap if something breaks right for them.  And if it doesn't, you're still talking about a team that is balanced and well-coached and that plays an attractive style of basketball. 

When this rebuild started a couple years ago, I was genuinely worried the Celts would enter a long fallow period like they experienced in the 90s, or even worse, an extended period of turmoil and constant roster turnover a la the Wizards, T-Wolves, or Kings.

I'm very relieved that didn't happen.  Instead, Ainge strung together smart moves that worked out and in less than a couple years we had a team with an identifiable core that should compete to win playoff series for the near future.  And we don't even have to sacrifice the allure of high draft picks, at least not until 2019! 

Let's enjoy that, I say.
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Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2016, 02:50:20 PM »

Online Csfan1984

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Three trade ideas to consider,
Bucks
IT for Jabari Parker and a pick.
Starters=Smart, AB, Crowder, Parker, Al

Pelicans
IT, Crowder, AJ and Nets 2018 for Anthony Davis
Starters=Smart, AB, Brown, AD, Al

C's, Pacers and Kings
IT for WCS and Miles Turner. (Kofous and IT to Pacers. Teague and Allen to Kings)
Starters=Smart, AB, Crowder, Al, Turner


Of course the Davis deal is my choice though you give up additional pieces you get a top 10 player. Also the C's would still have room to add a max deal like Hayward if he so decides to leave Jazz. How would Smart, AB, Hayward, AD and Al do in east?
**** at that package for Davis.  He's pretty close to untouchable.
It is ridiculous that people think IT, Crowder, AJ and Nets 2018 is laughable. Davis is a guy who averages 65 games in a season and won't be getting his team into the playoffs again. Sometimes you have to look at spreading out the talent because one guy isn't a team. Davis is a top ten player yes but IT is a top level PG and top 20 player. Crowder is a top level SF and locked up super cheap. That is two positions you upgrade who are on cheap contracts beyond this year. You also score a Nets pick which lets face Nets may be worse in 2018. And cap space this coming season. That isn't garbage.

Remember Love put up great numbers in Minnesota so let's not go crazy about Davis' big numbers on a bad team. If Davis came here he would be a 20 and 9 guy with above average defense is all. Still good but its not what he is doing now in New Orleans. And that isn't even sustainable. Hell, he is already having health issues so he will require long term rest managment in which he sits games out. That may be the rest of his career given the history. So that's another factor that goes into is he even worth trading for at a top ten player price. Health, bloated numbers, and defense against top big are concerns with Davis so he isn't untouchable.
At first I was thinking you can't be serious but I guess you are.  Seriously R O T F L M A O now.

Davis won't be taking them to the playoffs again?  Dude is 23.  Think about that for a second.  While we keep waiting for people like Smart and Rozier to take the next step, Davis is a bonafide superstar and is only a year older than these two.  Davis has a long long way to go before NO should even consider trading him.  And, trades of stars have almost always befitted the team getting the star, not the other way around.

And Davis would average 20 and 9 here?  Okay.  Not even sure what to say to that, expect, Davis would instantly be the centerpiece of any team except the Cavs and Warriors.  His numbers are only going up over time.

No amount of reasoning is going to make that package remotely close to acceptable.  100 AJ's don't equal one Anthony Davis.  35 Crowders don't equal one Anthony Davis.  Five IT's don't equal one Anthony Davis.  Things don't work that way.  Superstars are a rare commodity.
Nothing you wrote addresses the concerns about Davis and you completely ignore the value of the players and contracts. That reply is the joke and nonsense.
 

Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2016, 02:59:32 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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really pho, this was not necessary. the OP specifically told folks what his intended point was. you wrote a post that directly went counter to that point, even though he had asked people to not post exactly what you posted.

you sidetracked a thread. not a sin against nature, but carrying on in this way is unseemly.

I don't agree that it's a sidetrack.  If you are going to discuss a player's trade value, I think you're implicitly entertaining the notion of whether it makes sense to the team to trade that player for what is likely to be offered.


In any case, if you want to figure out what the Celts could get, make a list of all the teams in the league with worse starting point guards.  That list is going to be 20-25 teams long.  Then narrow it down to the teams that seem likely to want to try to compete this year and next rather than waiting for their team to develop.

Of the teams remaining, look at their roster and their available picks.  You could probably get (1) A decent but not great prospect; (2) A pick unlikely to fall in the top 5; and (3) filler.
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Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2016, 03:03:42 PM »

Offline Diggles

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What if PHX would give us their 1st Rounder and B Knight and T Chandler?   
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Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2016, 03:07:32 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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IT is not our foundation and thank goodness. He's our leading scorer and the media face of our team, but he's not even our best player. We built an offense around him, but if we're serious about adding major star talent, he's gonna be heading back to his Sacramento/Phoenix 3rd option/6th man type of role.

Most of the arguments along these lines strike me as conclusory:  IT isn't good enough to be a starter, so he will return to his sixth man role when the team gets good, because he's not good enough to be a main scorer on a good team.

Well, he's been the main scorer for the team for a while now, and during that span the team's been pretty good.

The team added an elite player in free agency this summer and IT has yet to return to a sixth man role.  The team remains pretty good.

If Ainge gets the chance to add Russell Westbrook or something, then I think we'll have a discussion, for sure.

If the Celts get the #1 pick and the consensus guy is a point guard (plausible, this year), then we'll have a discussion, for sure.

In the meantime, the team's foundation is IT and Horford.  Two very good players who aren't good enough to take you to a championship but good enough to get you homecourt advantage in Round 1 and maybe get you a bit further than that.  Two players with maybe 3-4 years of elite play left in them before they become role players.

The Nets picks might turn into stars.  Jaylen Brown might be something.  But we can't necessarily bank on that happening.  Picks and prospects aren't the foundation of a team.  They just allow for the hope that there might be a young foundation in the future.

This is why, as I said above, if you're looking to trade IT, you should probably be considering trade value for Horford as well, and maybe AB also.  Going young is definitely a route the Celts could take, given what they have in the pipeline.  But that doesn't only implicate IT.
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Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2016, 03:08:46 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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What if PHX would give us their 1st Rounder and B Knight and T Chandler?

So, you downgrade at point, add a veteran with a bloated contract, and get another 1st round pick.

That aside, unclear to me why the Suns would trade all that to get IT back, for fewer years than they had him before, when they already decided a couple years back that he wasn't a fit with Bledsoe.
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Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2016, 03:26:13 PM »

Offline otherdave

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So, then, I suppose the real question here is:

Should the team give up on its current core and go all-out youth movement, with an eye toward the development of Jaylen Brown and the two Nets picks in the pipeline, rather than go for broke trying to add the final piece to this current group?


Personally, my answer is no.  Not yet, at least.  If Ainge can't make anything happen at the deadline this year, or next summer, then this will be a discussion.  At that point, IT and Bradley will have one year left, Horford will be 31, and the younger guys are going to need to start getting paid, beginning with Olynyk.





I think we are saying the same thing.  I was never suggesting that IT be traded today.  I just felt like we were having the discussion today about what next summer may or may not hold.  I am at work now - so it was discuss this or actually work.

I agree, Danny has a big fork in the road coming up.  I actually don't anticipate IT going anywhere in the near future.  I would bet that even Danny does not know which way its going to go - depends on what is being offered.  Who could have predicted that Billy King would call Danny up and make the offer he did.

I am with you - definitely enjoying this competitive team that turned around much quicker than any of us could have hoped for.

Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2016, 03:26:13 PM »

Offline alewilliam789

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Unless we get a very good offer for IT I don't see us giving him up. I don't know if there is a large market, but I just don't see any solid trade offer that would give us equal return for IT's value for us as a team. Ultimately it would be best to shop him to championship contenders/playoff teams as a player that could put them over the top at a cheap price tag. It's just finding a solid trade partner.

Milwaukee is a good landing spot because they need a shooter/ PG and even though he is not a floor spacer, IT has shown he can knock down the 3.

Cleveland would love him, but don't see any assets they would give us that would make sense.

Orlando is a team that I see fits well as a trade partner.

I could see a trade like:

Orlando receives:
PG Isaiah Thomas
2nd Round pick from Boston

Boston receives:
PG Elfrid Payton
PF Aaron Gordon

Not sure that's equal return for IT, but I think that would be about as equal as it gets



Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2016, 03:29:43 PM »

Offline TrueFan

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So, then, I suppose the real question here is:

Should the team give up on its current core and go all-out youth movement, with an eye toward the development of Jaylen Brown and the two Nets picks in the pipeline, rather than go for broke trying to add the final piece to this current group?


Personally, my answer is no.  Not yet, at least.  If Ainge can't make anything happen at the deadline this year, or next summer, then this will be a discussion.  At that point, IT and Bradley will have one year left, Horford will be 31, and the younger guys are going to need to start getting paid, beginning with Olynyk.





I think we are saying the same thing.  I was never suggesting that IT be traded today.  I just felt like we were having the discussion today about what next summer may or may not hold.  I am at work now - so it was discuss this or actually work.

I agree, Danny has a big fork in the road coming up.  I actually don't anticipate IT going anywhere in the near future.  I would bet that even Danny does not know which way its going to go - depends on what is being offered.  Who could have predicted that Billy King would call Danny up and make the offer he did.

I am with you - definitely enjoying this competitive team that turned around much quicker than any of us could have hoped for.
You are 100 percent spot on with your earlier comments. There is nothing wrong with speculating and having fun.

It would be nice if people started a new thread instead of hijacking one and changing topics.

Thanks for addressing it earlier.

Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2016, 03:30:11 PM »

Offline fantankerous

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I think IT could be part of a ackage for John Wall. 

Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2016, 03:34:21 PM »

Offline TrueFan

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Unless we get a very good offer for IT I don't see us giving him up. I don't know if there is a large market, but I just don't see any solid trade offer that would give us equal return for IT's value for us as a team. Ultimately it would be best to shop him to championship contenders/playoff teams as a player that could put them over the top at a cheap price tag. It's just finding a solid trade partner.

Milwaukee is a good landing spot because they need a shooter/ PG and even though he is not a floor spacer, IT has shown he can knock down the 3.

Cleveland would love him, but don't see any assets they would give us that would make sense.

Orlando is a team that I see fits well as a trade partner.

I could see a trade like:

Orlando receives:
PG Isaiah Thomas
2nd Round pick from Boston

Boston receives:
PG Elfrid Payton
PF Aaron Gordon

Not sure that's equal return for IT, but I think that would be about as equal as it gets
I think Payton would be trying to fill the same role as Smart but not be as good. Bringing in Aaron Gordon however would be a huge gamble and a very bold an interesting move. He would have to play the four down the road if we wanted to start brown and Gordon.

Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2016, 03:37:09 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think IT could be part of a ackage for John Wall.

Washington would probably want the Celts to take back one or more of their awful contracts from this past summer (Mahinmi, Smith, Nicholson) and give up both BRK picks, in addition to IT.

Even then, with two years remaining on Wall's deal after this one, I'm not sure Washington will be interested in talking about trading him for a while yet.

How much better are the Celts with Wall instead of IT?  I'm not sure.

Would it be worth it if you have to give up cap space to sign another max FA and both BRK picks to make the upgrade?
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Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2016, 03:38:59 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I could see a trade like:

Orlando receives:
PG Isaiah Thomas
2nd Round pick from Boston

Boston receives:
PG Elfrid Payton
PF Aaron Gordon

Not sure that's equal return for IT, but I think that would be about as equal as it gets

You have the Celts including a pick to make this trade happen?  Why?

They're getting a backup caliber point guard with no range (not exactly a need even without IT) and a power forward prospect.

I like Gordon, but not enough to make that trade.  That's a major step backward.
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Re: What could we get for IT4
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2016, 03:47:29 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I think IT could be part of a ackage for John Wall.

Washington would probably want the Celts to take back one or more of their awful contracts from this past summer (Mahinmi, Smith, Nicholson) and give up both BRK picks, in addition to IT.

Even then, with two years remaining on Wall's deal after this one, I'm not sure Washington will be interested in talking about trading him for a while yet.

How much better are the Celts with Wall instead of IT?  I'm not sure.

Would it be worth it if you have to give up cap space to sign another max FA and both BRK picks to make the upgrade?

Sorry that is insane. A top 5 pick in this draft has amazing value. It is hard to see the pick this year ending up much worse than top 5 and has a chance at being the top pick. IT is a downgrade from Wall but he is not jameer nelson here. You don't need to add on a top 5 pick, take on a bad contract and add another probable lottery pick for the difference in value between the two.

Also there are already starting to be some calls to trade wall

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2016/12/08/tony-kornheiser-trade-john-wall-but-dont-trade-bryce-harper-just-yet/?utm_term=.550f6c9433c3