What could we get for IT4

[Future Celtics Owner]

It makes sense in the timeline if you consider that Philly would then be better than Brooklyn, and we might get a top two draft pick.

So we're gonna throw out our own hopes for being competitive in the short term for a marginal gain w/ respect to the BRK pick?

To people think KO is way worse than Saric for some reason? You want to trade those two for Okafor and Saric? Sigh

You don't think Saric has more upside then Kelly Olynyk?

Saric has one big advantage in his contract being a lot cheaper than what KO will be paid this offseason. However, in terms of players on the court they are pretty similar. Saric has been playing professionally for a long time and turns 23 this season (Do people not realize this?). KO turns 26. They are both good 3 point shooters. KO may be a slightly better shooter overall. Saric is a better rebounder, but not by an insane amount. I also do think KO's number would increase and Saric's would decrease if they switched roles.

I think some fans see if put up numbers as a rookie and kind of forget that he is not really a normal rookie and think he could develop into a star. Not even 76ers are really thinking that and it makes me think that this is another case of us overvaluing another team's players and downplaying the value of our own (a theme in this thread).

Saric doesn't have to be a star to become a better player then Olynyk.

I think everyone knows he is not a "NORMAL ROOKIE"
Saric is playing some out of position at times and they also have a clutter of bigs.

Okafor is my top target but I'd love a trade that brought back Okafor and Saric.

[celticsclay]

It makes sense in the timeline if you consider that Philly would then be better than Brooklyn, and we might get a top two draft pick.

So we're gonna throw out our own hopes for being competitive in the short term for a marginal gain w/ respect to the BRK pick?

To people think KO is way worse than Saric for some reason? You want to trade those two for Okafor and Saric? Sigh

You don't think Saric has more upside then Kelly Olynyk?

Saric has one big advantage in his contract being a lot cheaper than what KO will be paid this offseason. However, in terms of players on the court they are pretty similar. Saric has been playing professionally for a long time and turns 23 this season (Do people not realize this?). KO turns 26. They are both good 3 point shooters. KO may be a slightly better shooter overall. Saric is a better rebounder, but not by an insane amount. I also do think KO's number would increase and Saric's would decrease if they switched roles.

I think some fans see if put up numbers as a rookie and kind of forget that he is not really a normal rookie and think he could develop into a star. Not even 76ers are really thinking that and it makes me think that this is another case of us overvaluing another team's players and downplaying the value of our own (a theme in this thread).

Saric doesn't have to be a star to become a better player then Olynyk.

KO is a very good role player. I realize he isn't flashy and he looks kind of goofy so it easy to downplay him. However, we are a much better team when is he playing. Saric is getting a bit more hype because he is a rookie in a really weak class and we have a habit of over valuing 76ers players on this blog. That all being said Kelly is the better player today and there is a pretty reasonable chance he will remain the better player. He certainly isn't some big downgrade from Saric.

He has his moments but Saric will pass him and become the better player.

Try to trade Kelly O for Saric straight up and the Suxers would hang up.

Perhaps because of salary and Saric being on his rookie deal for longer. From a pure talent standpoint nobody is hanging up on that trade offer.

[celticsclay]

It makes sense in the timeline if you consider that Philly would then be better than Brooklyn, and we might get a top two draft pick.

So we're gonna throw out our own hopes for being competitive in the short term for a marginal gain w/ respect to the BRK pick?

To people think KO is way worse than Saric for some reason? You want to trade those two for Okafor and Saric? Sigh

You don't think Saric has more upside then Kelly Olynyk?

Saric has one big advantage in his contract being a lot cheaper than what KO will be paid this offseason. However, in terms of players on the court they are pretty similar. Saric has been playing professionally for a long time and turns 23 this season (Do people not realize this?). KO turns 26. They are both good 3 point shooters. KO may be a slightly better shooter overall. Saric is a better rebounder, but not by an insane amount. I also do think KO's number would increase and Saric's would decrease if they switched roles.

I think some fans see if put up numbers as a rookie and kind of forget that he is not really a normal rookie and think he could develop into a star. Not even 76ers are really thinking that and it makes me think that this is another case of us overvaluing another team's players and downplaying the value of our own (a theme in this thread).

Saric doesn't have to be a star to become a better player then Olynyk.

I think everyone knows he is not a "NORMAL ROOKIE"
Saric is playing some out of position at times and they also have a clutter of bigs.

Okafor is my top target but I'd love a trade that brought back Okafor and Saric.

He is shooting 39% from the field overall, playing below average defense and getting 6 rebounds a game. He is shooting 39% from 3 which is nice, but also what KO did last year. He is a nice role player that will probably have a lengthy career, but certainly not worth "building around" or gutting a team to acquire. Conversely Okafor is a bad player right now and has regressed this season. I want no part of him at all.

[Chris22]

It makes sense in the timeline if you consider that Philly would then be better than Brooklyn, and we might get a top two draft pick.

So we're gonna throw out our own hopes for being competitive in the short term for a marginal gain w/ respect to the BRK pick?

Quite the opposite, adding Noel makes us a better team than we are now, and then we add a top two draft pick next year.
I would do it in heartbeat.

[Ilikesports17]

It makes sense in the timeline if you consider that Philly would then be better than Brooklyn, and we might get a top two draft pick.

So we're gonna throw out our own hopes for being competitive in the short term for a marginal gain w/ respect to the BRK pick?

Quite the opposite, adding Noel makes us a better team than we are now, and then we add a top two draft pick next year.
I would do it in heartbeat.

I dont think Noel for Thomas makes us better.

I think Smart-Bradley-Crowder-Horford-Noel would be easily the best defensive starting 5 in the NBA, but it would also be perhaps the worst offensive starting 5 in the NBA.

[Csfan1984]

Three trade ideas to consider,
Bucks
IT for Jabari Parker and a pick.
Starters=Smart, AB, Crowder, Parker, Al

Pelicans
IT, Crowder, AJ and Nets 2018 for Anthony Davis
Starters=Smart, AB, Brown, AD, Al

C's, Pacers and Kings
IT for WCS and Miles Turner. (Kofous and IT to Pacers. Teague and Allen to Kings)
Starters=Smart, AB, Crowder, Al, Turner


Of course the Davis deal is my choice though you give up additional pieces you get a top 10 player. Also the C's would still have room to add a max deal like Hayward if he so decides to leave Jazz. How would Smart, AB, Hayward, AD and Al do in east?

**** at that package for Davis.  He's pretty close to untouchable.

It is ridiculous that people think IT, Crowder, AJ and Nets 2018 is laughable. Davis is a guy who averages 65 games in a season and won't be getting his team into the playoffs again. Sometimes you have to look at spreading out the talent because one guy isn't a team. Davis is a top ten player yes but IT is a top level PG and top 20 player. Crowder is a top level SF and locked up super cheap. That is two positions you upgrade who are on cheap contracts beyond this year. You also score a Nets pick which lets face Nets may be worse in 2018. And cap space this coming season. That isn't garbage.

Remember Love put up great numbers in Minnesota so let's not go crazy about Davis' big numbers on a bad team. If Davis came here he would be a 20 and 9 guy with above average defense is all. Still good but its not what he is doing now in New Orleans. And that isn't even sustainable. Hell, he is already having health issues so he will require long term rest managment in which he sits games out. That may be the rest of his career given the history. So that's another factor that goes into is he even worth trading for at a top ten player price. Health, bloated numbers, and defense against top big are concerns with Davis so he isn't untouchable.

At first I was thinking you can't be serious but I guess you are.  Seriously R O T F L M A O now.

Davis won't be taking them to the playoffs again?  Dude is 23.  Think about that for a second.  While we keep waiting for people like Smart and Rozier to take the next step, Davis is a bonafide superstar and is only a year older than these two.  Davis has a long long way to go before NO should even consider trading him.  And, trades of stars have almost always befitted the team getting the star, not the other way around.

And Davis would average 20 and 9 here?  Okay.  Not even sure what to say to that, expect, Davis would instantly be the centerpiece of any team except the Cavs and Warriors.  His numbers are only going up over time.

No amount of reasoning is going to make that package remotely close to acceptable.  100 AJ's don't equal one Anthony Davis.  35 Crowders don't equal one Anthony Davis.  Five IT's don't equal one Anthony Davis.  Things don't work that way.  Superstars are a rare commodity.

Nothing you wrote addresses the concerns about Davis and you completely ignore the value of the players and contracts. That reply is the joke and nonsense.

So you think that because Davis has an injury history, and because he is in a bad situation, that it somehow diminishes his value to the point that the offer makes sense?  Not even close.  Not even close.

You saying it doesn't doesn't make it so. Fact is Davis and that team has issues that affects the players value. The incoming players abilities and contracts do also mean a lot. Ignore it all you want Davis isn't untouchable. Currently his career outlook is that of a Tracy McGrady. Without pieces and staying healthy they won't be winning anything. Davis may be in his mid 30s by the time Pelicans get him help.

[tazzmaniac]

Three trade ideas to consider,
Bucks
IT for Jabari Parker and a pick.
Starters=Smart, AB, Crowder, Parker, Al

Pelicans
IT, Crowder, AJ and Nets 2018 for Anthony Davis
Starters=Smart, AB, Brown, AD, Al

C's, Pacers and Kings
IT for WCS and Miles Turner. (Kofous and IT to Pacers. Teague and Allen to Kings)
Starters=Smart, AB, Crowder, Al, Turner


Of course the Davis deal is my choice though you give up additional pieces you get a top 10 player. Also the C's would still have room to add a max deal like Hayward if he so decides to leave Jazz. How would Smart, AB, Hayward, AD and Al do in east?

**** at that package for Davis.  He's pretty close to untouchable.

It is ridiculous that people think IT, Crowder, AJ and Nets 2018 is laughable. Davis is a guy who averages 65 games in a season and won't be getting his team into the playoffs again. Sometimes you have to look at spreading out the talent because one guy isn't a team. Davis is a top ten player yes but IT is a top level PG and top 20 player. Crowder is a top level SF and locked up super cheap. That is two positions you upgrade who are on cheap contracts beyond this year. You also score a Nets pick which lets face Nets may be worse in 2018. And cap space this coming season. That isn't garbage.

Remember Love put up great numbers in Minnesota so let's not go crazy about Davis' big numbers on a bad team. If Davis came here he would be a 20 and 9 guy with above average defense is all. Still good but its not what he is doing now in New Orleans. And that isn't even sustainable. Hell, he is already having health issues so he will require long term rest managment in which he sits games out. That may be the rest of his career given the history. So that's another factor that goes into is he even worth trading for at a top ten player price. Health, bloated numbers, and defense against top big are concerns with Davis so he isn't untouchable.

At first I was thinking you can't be serious but I guess you are.  Seriously R O T F L M A O now.

Davis won't be taking them to the playoffs again?  Dude is 23.  Think about that for a second.  While we keep waiting for people like Smart and Rozier to take the next step, Davis is a bonafide superstar and is only a year older than these two.  Davis has a long long way to go before NO should even consider trading him.  And, trades of stars have almost always befitted the team getting the star, not the other way around.

And Davis would average 20 and 9 here?  Okay.  Not even sure what to say to that, expect, Davis would instantly be the centerpiece of any team except the Cavs and Warriors.  His numbers are only going up over time.

No amount of reasoning is going to make that package remotely close to acceptable.  100 AJ's don't equal one Anthony Davis.  35 Crowders don't equal one Anthony Davis.  Five IT's don't equal one Anthony Davis.  Things don't work that way.  Superstars are a rare commodity.

Nothing you wrote addresses the concerns about Davis and you completely ignore the value of the players and contracts. That reply is the joke and nonsense.

So you think that because Davis has an injury history, and because he is in a bad situation, that it somehow diminishes his value to the point that the offer makes sense?  Not even close.  Not even close.

You saying it doesn't doesn't make it so. Fact is Davis and that team has issues that affects the players value. The incoming players abilities and contracts do also mean a lot. Ignore it all you want Davis isn't untouchable. Currently his career outlook is that of a Tracy McGrady. Without pieces and staying healthy they won't be winning anything. Davis may be in his mid 30s by the time Pelicans get him help.

If NOP put Davis on the market now, they'd get a lot better offers than IT, Crowder, AJ and the Nets 2018.  NOP was in the playoffs a couple years ago.  If Evans and Holliday had been playing, they'd be in the playoff hunt this season.  If NOP fails to build around him, he'll be a UFA when he's 27. 

[PhoSita]

Quite the opposite, adding Noel makes us a better team than we are now

I like Noel, but I disagree, strongly.  The Celts without IT and Noel in the starting lineup would have a lot of trouble scoring.

[SHAQATTACK]

A Pizza

Im not tipping.

Surpreme of course

[Big333223]

This thread is crazy-making.

Philly doesn't want to give up an asset for a PG when they'll have a top 3 pick in a deep draft loaded with PG's. And IT doesn't fit their timeline anyway. But trading him for Noel would be stupid, since IT is far-and-away our best scorer and Noel brings back very little in that department.

And what is this Saric baloney? Saric is a rookie with all star potential. Philly wouldn't trade Saric for IT straight up even if the coming draft wasn't what it is.

I love IT. I want him as a Celtic. But to answer the OP's question, his trade value is low because the league is flush with PG's and any team that doesn't have one is probably bad and looking at the coming draft thinking "Why give up an asset now?" On top of that, IT's deficiencies (mainly, his size) are all too obvious. We'd never get back equal value in a trade.

[chambers]

I'm sorry you don't see the point in this thread and feel like you have to shoot it down. Now that you did can you move to another thread please.

What I'm trying to do is push you to justify your premise.

Are we conducting an audit, here?  Evaluating our assets just for the sake of having an accounting of the team's total trade value?

Or is there an IT-specific point here?

If there is, what is it? Why do you want to have this conversation about his trade value if not to suggest the potential benefit to the team in trading him?

Isn't it on topic, then, to point out that I find it very difficult to envision how it would be beneficial for the team to trade him right now?


Go and pose the question to a bunch of Blazers' fans: "What's Damian Lillard's trade value?"  I imagine you'd get a none-too-friendly reception. 

Because while you could start up that discussion, in theory, and the Blazers could trade him, in theory, it's hard to imagine that being a genuine topic of interest for the Blazers or their fans.  The convo would be a non-starter, because Dame is the heart of that team and any package of assets for him would fail to replace what they'd lose by trading him: a focal point, an identity, a player worth watching on a nightly basis. 

While IT isn't on the same level as Dame -- probably not, anyway -- I don't think the situation with the Celts is that different.

The premise is that he's an All Star now, on a bargain contract, who will be up for a monster contract at the end of next season- his value is probably at an all time high trade wise, and if we don't want to pay him a monster $25 million contract then what could we get in return for him?

It's completely reasonable and expected that IT trade ideas be discussed. Doesn't mean he's not a loved/adored player that we'd like to keep, but the reality is that paying anyone 25 million a year should be seriously considered, planned out and speculation about trade value is completely reasonable and warranted.

[otherdave]

What could we get if we trade IT4?

- Substantially reduced odds to do anything of note in the playoffs.

- A significantly less entertaining team to watch.

- Bad karma

- More young players we don't have time or patience to develop fully.

- More picks that will fall in the 5-20 range to be used on high floor prospects we'll just resent for not being the higher upside / higher bust potential freaks taken later in the draft by other teams.

Bad karma? We rescued IT from Phoenix, took him to the playoffs twice, gave him a starting gig that got him an All-Star selection and basically turned the entire team over to him this year. I think we've done right by him.

I also don't find IT all that entertaining.

I don't find IT all that "entertaining" either.  Words like frustrating and annoying come to mind though.  Not only is he selfish, he is very inefficient.  I could care less that "he is the only Celtic that can create his own shot".  If the ball keeps moving, someone usually will be open.  The open player should take the shot. Please don't tell me "but this is the NBA".  This is a team sport. Its just basketball folks.  Wilt won all the scoring titles and Russ got all those (11) rings.  Think about it.

We don't need any isolation hero ball in Bean town.

Team sport, defense wins titles. It's really simple stuff.

[Csfan1984]

Three trade ideas to consider,
Bucks
IT for Jabari Parker and a pick.
Starters=Smart, AB, Crowder, Parker, Al

Pelicans
IT, Crowder, AJ and Nets 2018 for Anthony Davis
Starters=Smart, AB, Brown, AD, Al

C's, Pacers and Kings
IT for WCS and Miles Turner. (Kofous and IT to Pacers. Teague and Allen to Kings)
Starters=Smart, AB, Crowder, Al, Turner


Of course the Davis deal is my choice though you give up additional pieces you get a top 10 player. Also the C's would still have room to add a max deal like Hayward if he so decides to leave Jazz. How would Smart, AB, Hayward, AD and Al do in east?

**** at that package for Davis.  He's pretty close to untouchable.

It is ridiculous that people think IT, Crowder, AJ and Nets 2018 is laughable. Davis is a guy who averages 65 games in a season and won't be getting his team into the playoffs again. Sometimes you have to look at spreading out the talent because one guy isn't a team. Davis is a top ten player yes but IT is a top level PG and top 20 player. Crowder is a top level SF and locked up super cheap. That is two positions you upgrade who are on cheap contracts beyond this year. You also score a Nets pick which lets face Nets may be worse in 2018. And cap space this coming season. That isn't garbage.

Remember Love put up great numbers in Minnesota so let's not go crazy about Davis' big numbers on a bad team. If Davis came here he would be a 20 and 9 guy with above average defense is all. Still good but its not what he is doing now in New Orleans. And that isn't even sustainable. Hell, he is already having health issues so he will require long term rest managment in which he sits games out. That may be the rest of his career given the history. So that's another factor that goes into is he even worth trading for at a top ten player price. Health, bloated numbers, and defense against top big are concerns with Davis so he isn't untouchable.

At first I was thinking you can't be serious but I guess you are.  Seriously R O T F L M A O now.

Davis won't be taking them to the playoffs again?  Dude is 23.  Think about that for a second.  While we keep waiting for people like Smart and Rozier to take the next step, Davis is a bonafide superstar and is only a year older than these two.  Davis has a long long way to go before NO should even consider trading him.  And, trades of stars have almost always befitted the team getting the star, not the other way around.

And Davis would average 20 and 9 here?  Okay.  Not even sure what to say to that, expect, Davis would instantly be the centerpiece of any team except the Cavs and Warriors.  His numbers are only going up over time.

No amount of reasoning is going to make that package remotely close to acceptable.  100 AJ's don't equal one Anthony Davis.  35 Crowders don't equal one Anthony Davis.  Five IT's don't equal one Anthony Davis.  Things don't work that way.  Superstars are a rare commodity.

Nothing you wrote addresses the concerns about Davis and you completely ignore the value of the players and contracts. That reply is the joke and nonsense.

So you think that because Davis has an injury history, and because he is in a bad situation, that it somehow diminishes his value to the point that the offer makes sense?  Not even close.  Not even close.

You saying it doesn't doesn't make it so. Fact is Davis and that team has issues that affects the players value. The incoming players abilities and contracts do also mean a lot. Ignore it all you want Davis isn't untouchable. Currently his career outlook is that of a Tracy McGrady. Without pieces and staying healthy they won't be winning anything. Davis may be in his mid 30s by the time Pelicans get him help.

If NOP put Davis on the market now, they'd get a lot better offers than IT, Crowder, AJ and the Nets 2018.  NOP was in the playoffs a couple years ago.  If Evans and Holliday had been playing, they'd be in the playoff hunt this season.  If NOP fails to build around him, he'll be a UFA when he's 27.

Not so sure NOP would get a better deal. Who is going to offer those kind of players under their $, a lottery pick and some expiring $? That is a compete right now for the playoffs package and get ammo for offseaon dealing. Of course if you want a pure rebuild package then that is different direction but does NOP want to be scrubs another 6 years?

And no way can anyone say "if" Holiday wasn't hurt. He is hurt more often then Davis himself. And Evans blows. The free Davis talk from reporters and sports analyst even tells us something about the team there.

[PhoSita]

It's completely reasonable and expected that IT trade ideas be discussed. Doesn't mean he's not a loved/adored player that we'd like to keep, but the reality is that paying anyone 25 million a year should be seriously considered, planned out and speculation about trade value is completely reasonable and warranted.

I understand this argument.  I'm even somewhat sympathetic to it.  But if you're going to bring up trading IT, I think you've got to address the replacement issue.  Unless your position is that it's not important to replace him, in which case I think you've got to address that also.

If you wanted to sell high on IT, you don't think he's good enough for the contract he's gonna get, that's fine.  I don't really agree, but I can see the perspective.  The time to do that, though, was before the team sold a thirty year old max free agent on coming to Boston to play next to IT and attract a third star to play with them.

At this point it doesn't seem to me like the team is in a position to "take a step back" for the sake of the cap sheet or the pipeline of future assets.  Not when they can compete without sacrificing a shot at a top draft pick and still have max cap space next summer.

[mctyson]

What could we get if we trade IT4?

- Substantially reduced odds to do anything of note in the playoffs.

- A significantly less entertaining team to watch.

- Bad karma

- More young players we don't have time or patience to develop fully.

- More picks that will fall in the 5-20 range to be used on high floor prospects we'll just resent for not being the higher upside / higher bust potential freaks taken later in the draft by other teams.

Exactly.  Plus, IT4 is making 6 mil a year.  There is no way he is getting traded.