Not a fan of IT as a starter

[Celtics4ever]

Quote
I think you were the guy who liked Sabonis as well.  That's what I want from zeller.  He could beat out Amir if he does that. I want crazy Zeller not the guy we see out there every night. 

No history to back this up.  Zeller has always been somewhat passive.

[mmmmm]

This is a tough situation. The Celtics need IT's scoring and ball handling skills. However, the main problem, if I heard Stevens right, is the team needs to make stops. Isaiah stopped no one last night. He wasn't alone, but he was alarmingly anemic on defense.

Brad said something to the affect, that in order for someone to get hot all it takes sometimes  is to get an easy basket in the beginning of the game to set them off. He was referring to Mudiay. The way Brad was speaking I wouldn't be surprised to see Isaiah on the bench if his defense doesn't pick up. 

On offense teams are playing him differently. They are surrounding him when he's in the lane and deflecting or stealing his passes to the players on the perimeter. Tommy also noted that the refs aren't giving him the calls (as often) when he drives to the hoop.

I agree.  Just saw the link below at csne

-Isaiah Thomas: "At this point we're all talk" on defense-

Who was guarding Mudiay? Cmon IT

Avery, at least to start the game, though that was fluid as the game progressed.

Per Spor**** player tracking, Isaiah gave up exactly 4 made baskets (against 7 attempts) in the DEN game, 2 of 3 of which were 3PT shots, only one of which was by Mudiay.   Overall, that was slightly fewer shots and points against him than IT's season average.

FWIW, in fewer minutes Marcus gave up 5 of 7 shots against him, including 3 of 5 3PA.   That's way more than Marcus' season averages.  You might want to look at the defense of other players than just IT.

Also, FWIW, Mudiay pretty much went ice cold after the first period.

Folks are almost certainly over-reacting to things.

[alldaboston]

This is a tough situation. The Celtics need IT's scoring and ball handling skills. However, the main problem, if I heard Stevens right, is the team needs to make stops. Isaiah stopped no one last night. He wasn't alone, but he was alarmingly anemic on defense.

Brad said something to the affect, that in order for someone to get hot all it takes sometimes  is to get an easy basket in the beginning of the game to set them off. He was referring to Mudiay. The way Brad was speaking I wouldn't be surprised to see Isaiah on the bench if his defense doesn't pick up. 

On offense teams are playing him differently. They are surrounding him when he's in the lane and deflecting or stealing his passes to the players on the perimeter. Tommy also noted that the refs aren't giving him the calls (as often) when he drives to the hoop.

I agree.  Just saw the link below at csne

-Isaiah Thomas: "At this point we're all talk" on defense-

Who was guarding Mudiay? Cmon IT

Avery, at least to start the game, though that was fluid as the game progressed.

Per Spor**** player tracking, Isaiah gave up exactly 4 made baskets (against 7 attempts) in the DEN game, 2 of 3 of which were 3PT shots, only one of which was by Mudiay.   Overall, that was slightly fewer shots and points against him than IT's season average.

FWIW, in fewer minutes Marcus gave up 5 of 7 shots against him, including 3 of 5 3PA.   That's way more than Marcus' season averages.  You might want to look at the defense of other players than just IT.

Also, FWIW, Mudiay pretty much went ice cold after the first period.

Folks are almost certainly over-reacting to things.

Sounds like some cool data.

Seems the forum has filtered out the name of the site though, lol, do you think you could write it another way, so that it doesn't get blocked out? I'm interested in seeing more data from the season so far.

[mmmmm]

I think the biggest change from last year is that teams are really starting to dissect and prepare for IT more than ever in his career. He's a bad defender but now, teams are game planning more than ever to exploit him. He's a terrific offensive player which is why teams are game planning more than ever to stop him. Teams are treating him like a superstar.

Last year, teams took an average of 8.2 FGA per game while guarded by Isaiah.

This year they are taking an average of 7.0 FGA per game while guarded by Isaiah.   So that doesn't suggest that they are specifically targeting Isaiah in particular, any more than last year.

One big difference against the Celtics (not just Isaiah) is that teams are taking a TON more 3PT shots.  And making them.   They have made 11.2 threes per game against the Celtics this year, a difference of +3.4 made threes per game over last year.   Those additional threes aren't all coming against Isaiah.

They are also getting to the FT line at a ridiculous 30.3 FTA/game rate, up  +4.3 per game over last year.  The Celtics are getting whistled for 24.7 PF per game, up from 21.9 last year.  Given that Isaiah's PF/gm rate has only gone up +0.7, you'll have to include other players in the blame list for that as well.

When you look closely, I would say that teams ARE targeting specifics with the Celtics.  In particular, they are attacking our reluctance to switch on perimeter picks and purposely stepping out for the open three.   And when we adjust by showing more with our big, because we are missing Horford's high P&R D, they are attacking the paint, drawing the fouls.

[mmmmm]

This is a tough situation. The Celtics need IT's scoring and ball handling skills. However, the main problem, if I heard Stevens right, is the team needs to make stops. Isaiah stopped no one last night. He wasn't alone, but he was alarmingly anemic on defense.

Brad said something to the affect, that in order for someone to get hot all it takes sometimes  is to get an easy basket in the beginning of the game to set them off. He was referring to Mudiay. The way Brad was speaking I wouldn't be surprised to see Isaiah on the bench if his defense doesn't pick up. 

On offense teams are playing him differently. They are surrounding him when he's in the lane and deflecting or stealing his passes to the players on the perimeter. Tommy also noted that the refs aren't giving him the calls (as often) when he drives to the hoop.

I agree.  Just saw the link below at csne

-Isaiah Thomas: "At this point we're all talk" on defense-

Who was guarding Mudiay? Cmon IT

Avery, at least to start the game, though that was fluid as the game progressed.

Per Spor**** player tracking, Isaiah gave up exactly 4 made baskets (against 7 attempts) in the DEN game, 2 of 3 of which were 3PT shots, only one of which was by Mudiay.   Overall, that was slightly fewer shots and points against him than IT's season average.

FWIW, in fewer minutes Marcus gave up 5 of 7 shots against him, including 3 of 5 3PA.   That's way more than Marcus' season averages.  You might want to look at the defense of other players than just IT.

Also, FWIW, Mudiay pretty much went ice cold after the first period.

Folks are almost certainly over-reacting to things.

Sounds like some cool data.

Seems the forum has filtered out the name of the site though, lol, do you think you could write it another way, so that it doesn't get blocked out? I'm interested in seeing more data from the season so far.

Here is the link to the overall opponent shooting data for the last game (vs DEN, until 'last game' changes):

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/defense/#!/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738&sort=D_FGA&dir=1&LastNGames=1

Here is the opponent 3PT shooting data:

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/defense/#!/3pt/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738&sort=FG3A&dir=1&LastNGames=1

[Tr1boy]

its time to bring IT off the bench

6-18 last night.... when he is doubled/pressured instead of hitting the rolling man who then can hit an open man, IT is trying to prove "you cant guard me" mentality and chucking up difficult shots

Again instead of trying to get the other starters going, just trying to do alot of the scoring on his own. (6th man mentality)

IT is no RW where he can score against anyone and even out of double teams.  Im a fan of the little guy but he needs to come off the bench.

Start Smart . Team passing and good team D start should be the priority now

[manl_lui]

its time to bring IT off the bench

6-18 last night.... when he is doubled/pressured instead of hitting the rolling man who then can hit an open man, IT is trying to prove "you cant guard me" mentality and chucking up difficult shots

Again instead of trying to get the other starters going, just trying to do alot of the scoring on his own. (6th man mentality)

IT is no RW where he can score against anyone and even out of double teams.  Im a fan of the little guy but he needs to come off the bench.

Start Smart . Team passing and good team D start should be the priority now

I am not opposed to it, but there are many problems that I think may arise.

IT deserved to start, and earned the right to start since being traded here, made all-star appearance and such, but  I agree with your point that his defense is a liability.

With that said I think Brad dug himself a hole now that IT has the team behind him and all that he's done, I am unsure of the chemistry or even how IT will feel if he gets benched

I do however want Brad to focus on letting Smart loose instead of stashing him in the corner and not him running the ball most of the time. I want to see those pick and rolls !

[Who]

its time to bring IT off the bench

6-18 last night.... when he is doubled/pressured instead of hitting the rolling man who then can hit an open man, IT is trying to prove "you cant guard me" mentality and chucking up difficult shots

Again instead of trying to get the other starters going, just trying to do alot of the scoring on his own. (6th man mentality)

IT is no RW where he can score against anyone and even out of double teams.  Im a fan of the little guy but he needs to come off the bench.

Start Smart . Team passing and good team D start should be the priority now

I was making the point in another thread that Isaiah has suffered the most with Horford and Olynyk out injured. Without that high caliber big man passing to help organize the offense and offer more points of attack, the offense has become too predictable and overly reliant on dribble penetration from it's guards. This has made them easy to defend and nobody has suffered more as a result of this than Isaiah Thomas because he is our leading creator on offense.

I think the best thing Stevens can do now is put Olynyk into the starting lineup to help Isaiah and the rest of the starting lineup to get back on track offensively.

So that is the change I would like to see. Keep Isaiah but start Olynyk (over Zeller).

[Big333223]

Over the first 7 games, IT is averaging 25.4 ppg on 48% shooting and getting to the line almost 9 times a game. He's also averaging 7.3 apg. His 3 point shooting has been bad but he's been clearly the team's best offensive player. Having your best offensive player come off the bench isn't something I'm in favor of.

[manl_lui]

its time to bring IT off the bench

6-18 last night.... when he is doubled/pressured instead of hitting the rolling man who then can hit an open man, IT is trying to prove "you cant guard me" mentality and chucking up difficult shots

Again instead of trying to get the other starters going, just trying to do alot of the scoring on his own. (6th man mentality)

IT is no RW where he can score against anyone and even out of double teams.  Im a fan of the little guy but he needs to come off the bench.

Start Smart . Team passing and good team D start should be the priority now

I was making the point in another thread that Isaiah has suffered the most with Horford and Olynyk out injured. Without that high caliber big man passing to help organize the offense and offer more points of attack, the offense has become too predictable and overly reliant on dribble penetration from it's guards. This has made them easy to defend and nobody has suffered more as a result of this than Isaiah Thomas because he is our leading creator on offense.

I think the best thing Stevens can do now is put Olynyk into the starting lineup to help Isaiah and the rest of the starting lineup to get back on track offensively.

So that is the change I would like to see. Keep Isaiah but start Olynyk (over Zeller).

I completely forgot about that point! so i apologize! Though we miss Sully's rebounding, I am glad we didn't sign him. Though remembering what you said, IT benefited from big men like Horford/KO/Sully who can play the pick and roll very very well, while them being capable big men who can pass. Missing those 3 are huge that the Celtics greatly missed and the rebounding as well. Along with Turner gone, the torch for play making isn't exactly passed to Smart.

[Tr1boy]

Over the first 7 games, IT is averaging 25.4 ppg on 48% shooting and getting to the line almost 9 times a game. He's also averaging 7.3 apg. His 3 point shooting has been bad but he's been clearly the team's best offensive player. Having your best offensive player come off the bench isn't something I'm in favor of.

This "symbol" to be a starter is not what the Celtics need right now

IT mentality etc. doesn't matter. Team comes 1st

Yesterday he gets a pick, drives into two defenders and jump passes for a turnover...  He passes the ball alot when he runs into trouble and causes panic for the other starters vs having a plan to make the correct pass, passing to players sweet spots (and mixing it up with his own scoring, when to score etc.)

He has to know right now he is being "eyed". Double teamed and needs to change his play.  He can't keep thinking he can outscore anyone, because the truth is he can't.....   

For IT to come off the bench and finish the game play 30 min or start the game, finish the game and play 30 mins...what does it matter?   Because his chance to make the all star game diminishes? because of x, y ,z?  I don't care about any of that....the team comes 1st

IT coming off the bench/Smart starting should make a difference...team D improves automatically... pressure on opposing pgs increases (prevents teams from getting a hot start),  team passing improves (no choice)

[Tr1boy]

its time to bring IT off the bench

6-18 last night.... when he is doubled/pressured instead of hitting the rolling man who then can hit an open man, IT is trying to prove "you cant guard me" mentality and chucking up difficult shots

Again instead of trying to get the other starters going, just trying to do alot of the scoring on his own. (6th man mentality)

IT is no RW where he can score against anyone and even out of double teams.  Im a fan of the little guy but he needs to come off the bench.

Start Smart . Team passing and good team D start should be the priority now

I was making the point in another thread that Isaiah has suffered the most with Horford and Olynyk out injured. Without that high caliber big man passing to help organize the offense and offer more points of attack, the offense has become too predictable and overly reliant on dribble penetration from it's guards. This has made them easy to defend and nobody has suffered more as a result of this than Isaiah Thomas because he is our leading creator on offense.

I think the best thing Stevens can do now is put Olynyk into the starting lineup to help Isaiah and the rest of the starting lineup to get back on track offensively.

So that is the change I would like to see. Keep Isaiah but start Olynyk (over Zeller).

i honestly don't think Horford will be able to help with the IT starting defensive issues

It's not like Horford is a shot blocking machine

IT is a weak link on the defensive end.... he tries but he has limitations.  Guys can shoot over him, pass over him and i mean he doesn't have the quickest defensive lateral movement  to keep up at times

[Surferdad]

Not saying IT should start, but there was a graphic in last night's game that he leads the league in drives to basket, something like 13 per game.  More than Westbrook, Harden, Wall...