It's time to start JJ over Amir

[footey]

Absolutely. Agreed about JJ > Amir individually at PF + better fit alongside rest of starting unit.

Well you've always had a soft spot for JJ, still JJ has been terrible so far this season.

I'll also point out that we've been pretty good to start games, so...

Let's also point out that so far our real only struggle is rebounding... and Jerebko so far has been our worst rebounder other than Brown.

But if you want to move away from Amir, why not try Zeller over Jerebko? Not my preference, but still more deserving.

I'd also try Brown at SF, who's already playing in crunch time with our starters as it is, before trying Jerebko. Sucks rebounding, but is doing a lot of good stuff out there.

I'd also try Jordan Mickey at PF, who's one of our best rebounders, prior to defaulting into Jerebko...

Would Jerebko play better with our starters? Sure, but that should be true just about anyone, sadly his performance says that he should be eating the bench rather than being promoted to the starters.

Jarebko played pretty well last game, no?  He seems to start slowly, then get better with each game. That was his MO last year.  I still prefer starting AJ, however, because it is too soon to panic.  He seems a little slower this year, but could be battling a lingering injury, he has problems with plantar faciitus, or whatever it's called.  He is a better defender and shot blocker than JJ.

[Snakehead]

I don't think Jerebko has been so strong so far, but I think this team really should have Amir basically be the back up C more often than not.  It would pay to have him coming in more when Horford isn't in there, so grab boards and be a defensive presence.

[pearljammer10]

I say nay.

[Chris22]

Jerebko has been terrible...

It's time to play Mickey over Jerebko.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Absolutely. Agreed about JJ > Amir individually at PF + better fit alongside rest of starting unit.

Well you've always had a soft spot for JJ, still JJ has been terrible so far this season.

I'll also point out that we've been pretty good to start games, so...

Let's also point out that so far our real only struggle is rebounding... and Jerebko so far has been our worst rebounder other than Brown.

But if you want to move away from Amir, why not try Zeller over Jerebko? Not my preference, but still more deserving.

I'd also try Brown at SF, who's already playing in crunch time with our starters as it is, before trying Jerebko. Sucks rebounding, but is doing a lot of good stuff out there.

I'd also try Jordan Mickey at PF, who's one of our best rebounders, prior to defaulting into Jerebko...

Would Jerebko play better with our starters? Sure, but that should be true just about anyone, sadly his performance says that he should be eating the bench rather than being promoted to the starters.

Jarebko played pretty well last game, no?  He seems to start slowly, then get better with each game. That was his MO last year.  I still prefer starting AJ, however, because it is too soon to panic.  He seems a little slower this year, but could be battling a lingering injury, he has problems with plantar faciitus, or whatever it's called.  He is a better defender and shot blocker than JJ.

I wouldn't call going 1-1, with 2 TO's, 2 rebs and 1 assist in 19 minutes playing well.

[rollie mass]

 at one time before he had that bad injury jerebko had some bounce,
i really like jonas ,maybe it takes him time to get his game legs but  he is struggling with arc on his shot and lift near the rim-

[snively]

I don't care much about how Jerebko has played thus far. He is a proven player and I believe he will come good given time.

I am more concerned about Amir because physically I do not like what I am seeing since joining the Celtics. He is not the same player that he was with the Raptors. He is covering less ground on defense. He is not as active a cutter on offense (far too stagnant movement wise on offense which is much worse for a guy who is mostly a garbage man). I think his days as a starting caliber player are coming to an end.

If Amir was just missing shots, I wouldn't be bothered but it's the decrease in his athleticism & mobility and how that is effecting him on both ends of the floor that bothers me.

Amir is still a valuable bench big to have.

Problem is that we already have a rotation that is 10/11 deep and that's without Smart and Olynyk in hand. I'm not sure how to advocate playing time for the player who has been the least productive so far in our team.

I'd rather play and give Mickey the minutes who so far has been the odd man out. I rather give more playing time to Brown.

Would in time Jerebko improve his current performance? Sure, i'd posit it has good chances considering how last season went for him. But we have other players deserving of playing time who are currently posed to outperform Jerebko.

So while all the Amir observations are legit, I can't at the moment rationalize more playing time for Jerebko or give him a role with the starters for a player whose performance so far is dictating he should be the odd man out of the rotation as it is.

Feels like you are overthinking it.

The starters (ie IT) would benefit most from another shooter. And ideally someone who can defend the position. Jerebko provides both of those qualities.

The other options are unappealing if the goal is to win games.

Right now, Jaylen only does one thing well - score the ball inside of 10 feet. Otherwise he's a rookie who gets pushed around on the glass, gets lost on D and struggles to hit spot-up jumpers. If he was more physically ready to bang with starting PFs, I'd say give him the job, but he's too much of a lightweight right now.

Mickey is totally unproven in every facet of his game.

I agree. There is way too much over thinking going on.  Mickey and Zeller are not better players then Jerebko.

Well, if you call observing that we have a long rotation as it is (with 2 rotation players out), and being against our current least productive player having a bigger role on our team over thinking it. Sure.

Its a three game sample.

Three game sample during which we are posting some of our best starting unit performances in years, with Crowder, Thomas, Bradley at career high levels and Horford quite near it... and we're advocating tweaking it because of said 3 game sample. OK, got it.

Amir helps the bench more than the starters (at least once KO gets back) and vice versa for Jerebko. Those 4 starters haven't been helped much by Amir so far, so I don't see the harm in giving them a boost and getting some much needed defensive quality on the bench.

[mmmmm]

I don't care much about how Jerebko has played thus far. He is a proven player and I believe he will come good given time.

I am more concerned about Amir because physically I do not like what I am seeing since joining the Celtics. He is not the same player that he was with the Raptors. He is covering less ground on defense. He is not as active a cutter on offense (far too stagnant movement wise on offense which is much worse for a guy who is mostly a garbage man). I think his days as a starting caliber player are coming to an end.

If Amir was just missing shots, I wouldn't be bothered but it's the decrease in his athleticism & mobility and how that is effecting him on both ends of the floor that bothers me.

Amir is still a valuable bench big to have.

Problem is that we already have a rotation that is 10/11 deep and that's without Smart and Olynyk in hand. I'm not sure how to advocate playing time for the player who has been the least productive so far in our team.

I'd rather play and give Mickey the minutes who so far has been the odd man out. I rather give more playing time to Brown.

Would in time Jerebko improve his current performance? Sure, i'd posit it has good chances considering how last season went for him. But we have other players deserving of playing time who are currently posed to outperform Jerebko.

So while all the Amir observations are legit, I can't at the moment rationalize more playing time for Jerebko or give him a role with the starters for a player whose performance so far is dictating he should be the odd man out of the rotation as it is.

Feels like you are overthinking it.

The starters (ie IT) would benefit most from another shooter. And ideally someone who can defend the position. Jerebko provides both of those qualities.

The other options are unappealing if the goal is to win games.

Right now, Jaylen only does one thing well - score the ball inside of 10 feet. Otherwise he's a rookie who gets pushed around on the glass, gets lost on D and struggles to hit spot-up jumpers. If he was more physically ready to bang with starting PFs, I'd say give him the job, but he's too much of a lightweight right now.

Mickey is totally unproven in every facet of his game.

I agree. There is way too much over thinking going on.  Mickey and Zeller are not better players then Jerebko.

Well, if you call observing that we have a long rotation as it is (with 2 rotation players out), and being against our current least productive player having a bigger role on our team over thinking it. Sure.

Its a three game sample.

Three game sample during which we are posting some of our best starting unit performances in years, with Crowder, Thomas, Bradley at career high levels and Horford quite near it... and we're advocating tweaking it because of said 3 game sample. OK, got it.

Amir helps the bench more than the starters (at least once KO gets back) and vice versa for Jerebko. Those 4 starters haven't been helped much by Amir so far, so I don't see the harm in giving them a boost and getting some much needed defensive quality on the bench.

Hmm...

As I mentioned in an earlier post, in 39 minutes of playing time so far, the 5-man starting unit (Isaiah, Avery, Jae, Al & Amir) have posted (points per 100 possessions)

Offensive Rating:  110.0
Defensive Rating:   96.3

In 29 minutes of playing time WITHOUT Amir, the 4-man unit of Isaiah, Avery, Jae & Al have posted:

Offensive Rating:  103.4
Defensive Rating:  105.1

This suggests pretty strongly that Amir's presence might be helping the other starters.

Obviously, these are very small samples, and things could be different in the future.  But this is what has happened so far.

[littleteapot]

The lineup some people here are proposing to start the game is Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, Jerebko, Horford, which has not played a full minute so far in these 3 games. So no one really knows what that lineup would do.

There is no lineup that has played a lot of minutes except the starting lineup, and the only really comparable lineups are the big 4 plus Zeller with a 14.1 net rating (though I assume this is an aberration/terrible bench bigs on other teams) in 8 minutes, and the big 4 plus (sorry everyone) Mickey with a -64.6 net rating in only 4 minutes.

I still don't think it's soon enough to make a switch to the starting lineup, but I think we should look at how we start games and it should be an option down the road. I still think from a strategic POV, the starters need to be able to rebound well or we should opt for shooting and/or speed in the starting unit.

[Vox_Populi]

I think your bias is showing if you're concluding that Amir has been worse than Jerebko.

I think you're probably just as biased if you can't admit that Amir has been atrocious so far.

Sure, JJ hasn't been much better, but there's a difference when he's playing with the JV team and Amir is playing with the Varsity team.

When you compare the two in the same context, such as when they were both starters in the playoffs last year, then it's clear that JJ outperformed AJ when actually playing with good players.

He'd be much better for us in a starting role than Amir, even if it's not due just to his play itself but rather him moving Horford to his more natural center position and providing more spacing for penetration. That's undeniable.

Jerebko has been easily the worst player on the floor so far for the Celtics out of anyone who has seen playing time, easily.

I don't think we should start Jerebko yet, but I do disagree with this part. Gerald Green, Zeller and Mickey all have significantly lower net ratings than Jerebko. This is not surprising given how big a minus those three were last year.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I think your bias is showing if you're concluding that Amir has been worse than Jerebko.

I think you're probably just as biased if you can't admit that Amir has been atrocious so far.

Sure, JJ hasn't been much better, but there's a difference when he's playing with the JV team and Amir is playing with the Varsity team.

When you compare the two in the same context, such as when they were both starters in the playoffs last year, then it's clear that JJ outperformed AJ when actually playing with good players.

He'd be much better for us in a starting role than Amir, even if it's not due just to his play itself but rather him moving Horford to his more natural center position and providing more spacing for penetration. That's undeniable.

Jerebko has been easily the worst player on the floor so far for the Celtics out of anyone who has seen playing time, easily.

I don't think we should start Jerebko yet, but I do disagree with this part. Gerald Green, Zeller and Mickey all have significantly lower net ratings than Jerebko. This is not surprising given how big a minus those three were last year.

What is this "net ratings" you're speaking of and where are you getting it?

But I'll tell you right now Jerebko has the worst FG%, the worst PER, the 2nd worst Rebound %, second worst TS%, negative win shares, second worst in turnovers (Amir being the worst). Not sure what your net ratings will show, but all of the above is indicative of a player playing quite poorly and contributing little on the floor.

[clevelandceltic]

I completely disagree with the OP on this one. You mention the switching of Amir to guard center is so that Horford doesnt have to. Last year Sullinger guarded the bigger Centers and Amir covered the 4s.

Shooting and spacing arent the issue with the starters is D and rebounding in which JJ is largely terrible at. I dont think he offers the starters anything to be honest with you.

Lastly, I could make a case that once KO comes back that JJ shouldnt be playing at all. His game is deficient in almost all areas outside of shooting. He is a 6'10 better passing version of Green. 2 guys that offer nothing but scoring and the team get hurt everytime both are out there together as far as i can see.

[Vox_Populi]

I think your bias is showing if you're concluding that Amir has been worse than Jerebko.

I think you're probably just as biased if you can't admit that Amir has been atrocious so far.

Sure, JJ hasn't been much better, but there's a difference when he's playing with the JV team and Amir is playing with the Varsity team.

When you compare the two in the same context, such as when they were both starters in the playoffs last year, then it's clear that JJ outperformed AJ when actually playing with good players.

He'd be much better for us in a starting role than Amir, even if it's not due just to his play itself but rather him moving Horford to his more natural center position and providing more spacing for penetration. That's undeniable.

Jerebko has been easily the worst player on the floor so far for the Celtics out of anyone who has seen playing time, easily.

I don't think we should start Jerebko yet, but I do disagree with this part. Gerald Green, Zeller and Mickey all have significantly lower net ratings than Jerebko. This is not surprising given how big a minus those three were last year.

What is this "net ratings" you're speaking of and where are you getting it?

But I'll tell you right now Jerebko has the worst FG%, the worst PER, the 2nd worst Rebound %, second worst TS%, negative win shares, second worst in turnovers (Amir being the worst). Not sure what your net ratings will show, but all of the above is indicative of a player playing quite poorly and contributing little on the floor.

Net rating is point differential adjusted for pace. Or, how much a team outscores, or is outscored, by their opponent when a specific player is on the floor per 100 possessions. It's on stats.nba.com. It obviously comes with caveats, but it's not box-score based, so it's useful for approximating overall impact outside of counting stats.

And I didn't say Jerebko is playing well, just that I disagreed he's been by far the worst. The Celtics have only been outscored by about a point per possession when he's on the floor, still better than those other three. Like I said, I don't think he should be starting either.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I think your bias is showing if you're concluding that Amir has been worse than Jerebko.

I think you're probably just as biased if you can't admit that Amir has been atrocious so far.

Sure, JJ hasn't been much better, but there's a difference when he's playing with the JV team and Amir is playing with the Varsity team.

When you compare the two in the same context, such as when they were both starters in the playoffs last year, then it's clear that JJ outperformed AJ when actually playing with good players.

He'd be much better for us in a starting role than Amir, even if it's not due just to his play itself but rather him moving Horford to his more natural center position and providing more spacing for penetration. That's undeniable.

Jerebko has been easily the worst player on the floor so far for the Celtics out of anyone who has seen playing time, easily.

I don't think we should start Jerebko yet, but I do disagree with this part. Gerald Green, Zeller and Mickey all have significantly lower net ratings than Jerebko. This is not surprising given how big a minus those three were last year.

What is this "net ratings" you're speaking of and where are you getting it?

But I'll tell you right now Jerebko has the worst FG%, the worst PER, the 2nd worst Rebound %, second worst TS%, negative win shares, second worst in turnovers (Amir being the worst). Not sure what your net ratings will show, but all of the above is indicative of a player playing quite poorly and contributing little on the floor.

Net rating is point differential adjusted for pace. Or, how much a team outscores, or is outscored, by their opponent when a specific player is on the floor per 100 possessions. It's on stats.nba.com. It obviously comes with caveats, but it's not box-score based, so it's useful for approximating overall impact outside of counting stats.

And I didn't say Jerebko is playing well, just that I disagreed he's been by far the worst. The Celtics have only been outscored by about a point per possession when he's on the floor, still better than those other three. Like I said, I don't think he should be starting either.

Ah yeah, certainly. Those ratings I rather wait until there's more sample data, they by their nature are incredibly noisy even when adjusted. I prefer straight up stats early on because that at least gives me a picture of current performance.

We'll see.

[jpotter33]

I completely disagree with the OP on this one. You mention the switching of Amir to guard center is so that Horford doesnt have to. Last year Sullinger guarded the bigger Centers and Amir covered the 4s.

Shooting and spacing arent the issue with the starters is D and rebounding in which JJ is largely terrible at. I dont think he offers the starters anything to be honest with you.

Lastly, I could make a case that once KO comes back that JJ shouldnt be playing at all. His game is deficient in almost all areas outside of shooting. He is a 6'10 better passing version of Green. 2 guys that offer nothing but scoring and the team get hurt everytime both are out there together as far as i can see.

In what world is JJ bad at D and rebounding?? He's a very good defender with excellent length and versatility on that end, and he's not an elite rebounder by any means, but he's nearly as solid of a rebounder at the 4 position as Amir. As a starter he even averaged more rebounds than Amir last postseason.