It's time to start JJ over Amir

[BudweiserCeltic]

I don't care much about how Jerebko has played thus far. He is a proven player and I believe he will come good given time.

I am more concerned about Amir because physically I do not like what I am seeing since joining the Celtics. He is not the same player that he was with the Raptors. He is covering less ground on defense. He is not as active a cutter on offense (far too stagnant movement wise on offense which is much worse for a guy who is mostly a garbage man). I think his days as a starting caliber player are coming to an end.

If Amir was just missing shots, I wouldn't be bothered but it's the decrease in his athleticism & mobility and how that is effecting him on both ends of the floor that bothers me.

Amir is still a valuable bench big to have.

Problem is that we already have a rotation that is 10/11 deep and that's without Smart and Olynyk in hand. I'm not sure how to advocate playing time for the player who has been the least productive so far in our team.

I'd rather play and give Mickey the minutes who so far has been the odd man out. I rather give more playing time to Brown.

Would in time Jerebko improve his current performance? Sure, i'd posit it has good chances considering how last season went for him. But we have other players deserving of playing time who are currently posed to outperform Jerebko.

So while all the Amir observations are legit, I can't at the moment rationalize more playing time for Jerebko or give him a role with the starters for a player whose performance so far is dictating he should be the odd man out of the rotation as it is.

[TheSundanceKid]

I thought that Amir played Center to move Horford over to the 4, perhaps I'm mistaken though.

It's too early to change the starters just yet. When KO and Smart are healthy I think we'll see a shift in minute distribution. Amir is good for starting games when we have the firepower around him to allow him to do what he does best which is hustle and grind on defence. I'd expect to see some of his later game minutes get absorbed by small ball and KO.

JJ should stay on the bench I think. He's struggling for confidence in his shot right now. What's great about the 2nd unit is the versatility they show on defence and JJ is a big part of that. He is probably a 10th man right now but if there were to be a trade mid season he is the type of guy that can step up and fill gaps without question.

[snively]

I don't care much about how Jerebko has played thus far. He is a proven player and I believe he will come good given time.

I am more concerned about Amir because physically I do not like what I am seeing since joining the Celtics. He is not the same player that he was with the Raptors. He is covering less ground on defense. He is not as active a cutter on offense (far too stagnant movement wise on offense which is much worse for a guy who is mostly a garbage man). I think his days as a starting caliber player are coming to an end.

If Amir was just missing shots, I wouldn't be bothered but it's the decrease in his athleticism & mobility and how that is effecting him on both ends of the floor that bothers me.

Amir is still a valuable bench big to have.

Problem is that we already have a rotation that is 10/11 deep and that's without Smart and Olynyk in hand. I'm not sure how to advocate playing time for the player who has been the least productive so far in our team.

I'd rather play and give Mickey the minutes who so far has been the odd man out. I rather give more playing time to Brown.

Would in time Jerebko improve his current performance? Sure, i'd posit it has good chances considering how last season went for him. But we have other players deserving of playing time who are currently posed to outperform Jerebko.

So while all the Amir observations are legit, I can't at the moment rationalize more playing time for Jerebko or give him a role with the starters for a player whose performance so far is dictating he should be the odd man out of the rotation as it is.

Feels like you are overthinking it.

The starters (ie IT) would benefit most from another shooter. And ideally someone who can defend the position. Jerebko provides both of those qualities.

The other options are unappealing if the goal is to win games.

Right now, Jaylen only does one thing well - score the ball inside of 10 feet. Otherwise he's a rookie who gets pushed around on the glass, gets lost on D and struggles to hit spot-up jumpers. If he was more physically ready to bang with starting PFs, I'd say give him the job, but he's too much of a lightweight right now.

Mickey is totally unproven in every facet of his game.

[loco_91]

I think Amir has still been fairly effective. He does what we need him to do with the first unit. Olynyk might surpass him at some point, but I think he's still way higher in the pecking order than Jerebko.

[chambers]

I think 3 games in, changing the starting lineup is an overreaction.

That said, if Amir's play continues this way, I agree it would be worth seeing what Jerebko can do with the starters. For some reason, he's had a pair of good showings in the playoffs after bad/uneven regular seasons. If Amir continues to disappoint and Olynyk takes longer to get back than we think he should, Jerebko would be an experiment worth trying.

It is early, but I think there's enough evidence to support such a position.

I think the worst part of it is we're just totally misusing Horford both offensively and defensively due to Amir's deficiencies. He's been a center his entire career, and unless we get a major upgrade like a Cousins or Noel type, he probably should stay a center. Just look at Horford's rebounding percentages to see how much he's been affected by this change.

EDIT: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01.html

His ORB% is down 5%; his DRB% is down 1.3%; and his TRB% is down 2.4%. That is definitely associated with him being out on the perimeter more than he's ever been in his career.

It's his perimeter abilities at the PF that are creating acres of daylight for us with the pick and pop and pick and roll.
We are losing his rebounding ability to an extent, but the aim is to create spacing for our shooters and for Isaiah and Avery to get penetrating and dishing.

The pick and pop with IT and Horford is basically unstoppable. If they go after IT he passes to Horford. If they don't mark up Horford he shoots the 3 at a good %. If they do go after Horford he takes them off the dribble and then finds baseline cutters or perimeter shooters.

Horford is being used extremely effectively.

That being said, we may try using JJ at some point depending on the match up. Perhaps vs a team like Golden state.

[littleteapot]

It's his perimeter abilities at the PF that are creating acres of daylight for us with the pick and pop and pick and roll.
We are losing his rebounding ability to an extent, but the aim is to create spacing for our shooters and for Isaiah and Avery to get penetrating and dishing.

First of all, Horford is not exactly Channing Frye. Last year was his first year shooting threes and he was adequate but not good enough that the D had to respect it.

Second of all, if you really did have a guy who was Channing Frye shooting the ball and had the defensive and rebounding abilities of Horford, why would you pair him with Amir Johnson? That just lets the other team stick to Horford like glue and use Johnson's defender to keep Thomas out of the paint.

[TrueFan]

I don't care much about how Jerebko has played thus far. He is a proven player and I believe he will come good given time.

I am more concerned about Amir because physically I do not like what I am seeing since joining the Celtics. He is not the same player that he was with the Raptors. He is covering less ground on defense. He is not as active a cutter on offense (far too stagnant movement wise on offense which is much worse for a guy who is mostly a garbage man). I think his days as a starting caliber player are coming to an end.

If Amir was just missing shots, I wouldn't be bothered but it's the decrease in his athleticism & mobility and how that is effecting him on both ends of the floor that bothers me.

Amir is still a valuable bench big to have.

Problem is that we already have a rotation that is 10/11 deep and that's without Smart and Olynyk in hand. I'm not sure how to advocate playing time for the player who has been the least productive so far in our team.

I'd rather play and give Mickey the minutes who so far has been the odd man out. I rather give more playing time to Brown.

Would in time Jerebko improve his current performance? Sure, i'd posit it has good chances considering how last season went for him. But we have other players deserving of playing time who are currently posed to outperform Jerebko.

So while all the Amir observations are legit, I can't at the moment rationalize more playing time for Jerebko or give him a role with the starters for a player whose performance so far is dictating he should be the odd man out of the rotation as it is.

Feels like you are overthinking it.

The starters (ie IT) would benefit most from another shooter. And ideally someone who can defend the position. Jerebko provides both of those qualities.

The other options are unappealing if the goal is to win games.

Right now, Jaylen only does one thing well - score the ball inside of 10 feet. Otherwise he's a rookie who gets pushed around on the glass, gets lost on D and struggles to hit spot-up jumpers. If he was more physically ready to bang with starting PFs, I'd say give him the job, but he's too much of a lightweight right now.

Mickey is totally unproven in every facet of his game.

I agree. There is way too much over thinking going on.  Mickey and Zeller are not better players then Jerebko.

[Rosco917]

Amir is nothing more than OK. His defense, and rebounding isn't valuable enough to over ride his weakness on offense.

Honestly, Jerebko may give a different look on offense, but his shooting is so streaky, and the rest of his game is only fair, he really won't make much of a difference.

We need an upgrade in the front court period. A guy that can bang, rebound, defend and score from 15-17 feet.

Olynyk just doesn't give me any hope, he's so up and down in his play, his confidence is so fragile, and he's alway hurt. I hope he can turn it around when he finally does return.

 

[mmmmm]

It's his perimeter abilities at the PF that are creating acres of daylight for us with the pick and pop and pick and roll.
We are losing his rebounding ability to an extent, but the aim is to create spacing for our shooters and for Isaiah and Avery to get penetrating and dishing.

First of all, Horford is not exactly Channing Frye. Last year was his first year shooting threes and he was adequate but not good enough that the D had to respect it.

Second of all, if you really did have a guy who was Channing Frye shooting the ball and had the defensive and rebounding abilities of Horford, why would you pair him with Amir Johnson? That just lets the other team stick to Horford like glue and use Johnson's defender to keep Thomas out of the paint.

Because that doesn't work.  Thomas will always attack when there is only one big in the paint.  And Amir is very good at holding a seal.   We saw this repeatedly all last year. 

Horford at the high post, Amir along the baseline and Isaiah as the handler (or getting it while in motion off an off-ball screen) with Avery & Jae on the wings is going to generate a ton of points this year.   Very few of them may be scored by Amir or even Al, but they are going to be just as critical in that execution.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I don't care much about how Jerebko has played thus far. He is a proven player and I believe he will come good given time.

I am more concerned about Amir because physically I do not like what I am seeing since joining the Celtics. He is not the same player that he was with the Raptors. He is covering less ground on defense. He is not as active a cutter on offense (far too stagnant movement wise on offense which is much worse for a guy who is mostly a garbage man). I think his days as a starting caliber player are coming to an end.

If Amir was just missing shots, I wouldn't be bothered but it's the decrease in his athleticism & mobility and how that is effecting him on both ends of the floor that bothers me.

Amir is still a valuable bench big to have.

Problem is that we already have a rotation that is 10/11 deep and that's without Smart and Olynyk in hand. I'm not sure how to advocate playing time for the player who has been the least productive so far in our team.

I'd rather play and give Mickey the minutes who so far has been the odd man out. I rather give more playing time to Brown.

Would in time Jerebko improve his current performance? Sure, i'd posit it has good chances considering how last season went for him. But we have other players deserving of playing time who are currently posed to outperform Jerebko.

So while all the Amir observations are legit, I can't at the moment rationalize more playing time for Jerebko or give him a role with the starters for a player whose performance so far is dictating he should be the odd man out of the rotation as it is.

Feels like you are overthinking it.

The starters (ie IT) would benefit most from another shooter. And ideally someone who can defend the position. Jerebko provides both of those qualities.

The other options are unappealing if the goal is to win games.

Right now, Jaylen only does one thing well - score the ball inside of 10 feet. Otherwise he's a rookie who gets pushed around on the glass, gets lost on D and struggles to hit spot-up jumpers. If he was more physically ready to bang with starting PFs, I'd say give him the job, but he's too much of a lightweight right now.

Mickey is totally unproven in every facet of his game.

I agree. There is way too much over thinking going on.  Mickey and Zeller are not better players then Jerebko.

Well, if you call observing that we have a long rotation as it is (with 2 rotation players out), and being against our current least productive player having a bigger role on our team over thinking it. Sure.

[TrueFan]

I don't care much about how Jerebko has played thus far. He is a proven player and I believe he will come good given time.

I am more concerned about Amir because physically I do not like what I am seeing since joining the Celtics. He is not the same player that he was with the Raptors. He is covering less ground on defense. He is not as active a cutter on offense (far too stagnant movement wise on offense which is much worse for a guy who is mostly a garbage man). I think his days as a starting caliber player are coming to an end.

If Amir was just missing shots, I wouldn't be bothered but it's the decrease in his athleticism & mobility and how that is effecting him on both ends of the floor that bothers me.

Amir is still a valuable bench big to have.

Problem is that we already have a rotation that is 10/11 deep and that's without Smart and Olynyk in hand. I'm not sure how to advocate playing time for the player who has been the least productive so far in our team.

I'd rather play and give Mickey the minutes who so far has been the odd man out. I rather give more playing time to Brown.

Would in time Jerebko improve his current performance? Sure, i'd posit it has good chances considering how last season went for him. But we have other players deserving of playing time who are currently posed to outperform Jerebko.

So while all the Amir observations are legit, I can't at the moment rationalize more playing time for Jerebko or give him a role with the starters for a player whose performance so far is dictating he should be the odd man out of the rotation as it is.

Feels like you are overthinking it.

The starters (ie IT) would benefit most from another shooter. And ideally someone who can defend the position. Jerebko provides both of those qualities.

The other options are unappealing if the goal is to win games.

Right now, Jaylen only does one thing well - score the ball inside of 10 feet. Otherwise he's a rookie who gets pushed around on the glass, gets lost on D and struggles to hit spot-up jumpers. If he was more physically ready to bang with starting PFs, I'd say give him the job, but he's too much of a lightweight right now.

Mickey is totally unproven in every facet of his game.

I agree. There is way too much over thinking going on.  Mickey and Zeller are not better players then Jerebko.

Well, if you call observing that we have a long rotation as it is (with 2 rotation players out), and being against our current least productive player having a bigger role on our team over thinking it. Sure.

Its a three game sample.

[mmmmm]

Just FYI:  So far, through three games, the starting unit (Isaiah, Avery, Jae, Al & Amir) have played 39 minutes during which they have scored a fat 110 points per 100 possessions and given up a miserly 96.3 points per 100 possessions.

The starters have posted a team TS% of 57% while surrendering an opposing TS% of just 46.7%.

The starting lineup is not broken.   Folks should stop trying to fix it until it is clearly broken.

One of the reasons it is working so well is because Amir and Isaiah spent a lot of time working with Horford this summer down in Atlanta.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I don't care much about how Jerebko has played thus far. He is a proven player and I believe he will come good given time.

I am more concerned about Amir because physically I do not like what I am seeing since joining the Celtics. He is not the same player that he was with the Raptors. He is covering less ground on defense. He is not as active a cutter on offense (far too stagnant movement wise on offense which is much worse for a guy who is mostly a garbage man). I think his days as a starting caliber player are coming to an end.

If Amir was just missing shots, I wouldn't be bothered but it's the decrease in his athleticism & mobility and how that is effecting him on both ends of the floor that bothers me.

Amir is still a valuable bench big to have.

Problem is that we already have a rotation that is 10/11 deep and that's without Smart and Olynyk in hand. I'm not sure how to advocate playing time for the player who has been the least productive so far in our team.

I'd rather play and give Mickey the minutes who so far has been the odd man out. I rather give more playing time to Brown.

Would in time Jerebko improve his current performance? Sure, i'd posit it has good chances considering how last season went for him. But we have other players deserving of playing time who are currently posed to outperform Jerebko.

So while all the Amir observations are legit, I can't at the moment rationalize more playing time for Jerebko or give him a role with the starters for a player whose performance so far is dictating he should be the odd man out of the rotation as it is.

Feels like you are overthinking it.

The starters (ie IT) would benefit most from another shooter. And ideally someone who can defend the position. Jerebko provides both of those qualities.

The other options are unappealing if the goal is to win games.

Right now, Jaylen only does one thing well - score the ball inside of 10 feet. Otherwise he's a rookie who gets pushed around on the glass, gets lost on D and struggles to hit spot-up jumpers. If he was more physically ready to bang with starting PFs, I'd say give him the job, but he's too much of a lightweight right now.

Mickey is totally unproven in every facet of his game.

I agree. There is way too much over thinking going on.  Mickey and Zeller are not better players then Jerebko.

Well, if you call observing that we have a long rotation as it is (with 2 rotation players out), and being against our current least productive player having a bigger role on our team over thinking it. Sure.

Its a three game sample.

Three game sample during which we are posting some of our best starting unit performances in years, with Crowder, Thomas, Bradley at career high levels and Horford quite near it... and we're advocating tweaking it because of said 3 game sample. OK, got it.

[TrueFan]

I don't care much about how Jerebko has played thus far. He is a proven player and I believe he will come good given time.

I am more concerned about Amir because physically I do not like what I am seeing since joining the Celtics. He is not the same player that he was with the Raptors. He is covering less ground on defense. He is not as active a cutter on offense (far too stagnant movement wise on offense which is much worse for a guy who is mostly a garbage man). I think his days as a starting caliber player are coming to an end.

If Amir was just missing shots, I wouldn't be bothered but it's the decrease in his athleticism & mobility and how that is effecting him on both ends of the floor that bothers me.

Amir is still a valuable bench big to have.

Problem is that we already have a rotation that is 10/11 deep and that's without Smart and Olynyk in hand. I'm not sure how to advocate playing time for the player who has been the least productive so far in our team.

I'd rather play and give Mickey the minutes who so far has been the odd man out. I rather give more playing time to Brown.

Would in time Jerebko improve his current performance? Sure, i'd posit it has good chances considering how last season went for him. But we have other players deserving of playing time who are currently posed to outperform Jerebko.

So while all the Amir observations are legit, I can't at the moment rationalize more playing time for Jerebko or give him a role with the starters for a player whose performance so far is dictating he should be the odd man out of the rotation as it is.

Feels like you are overthinking it.

The starters (ie IT) would benefit most from another shooter. And ideally someone who can defend the position. Jerebko provides both of those qualities.

The other options are unappealing if the goal is to win games.

Right now, Jaylen only does one thing well - score the ball inside of 10 feet. Otherwise he's a rookie who gets pushed around on the glass, gets lost on D and struggles to hit spot-up jumpers. If he was more physically ready to bang with starting PFs, I'd say give him the job, but he's too much of a lightweight right now.

Mickey is totally unproven in every facet of his game.

I agree. There is way too much over thinking going on.  Mickey and Zeller are not better players then Jerebko.

Well, if you call observing that we have a long rotation as it is (with 2 rotation players out), and being against our current least productive player having a bigger role on our team over thinking it. Sure.

Its a three game sample.

Three game sample during which we are posting some of our best starting unit performances in years, with Crowder, Thomas, Bradley at career high levels and Horford quite near it... and we're advocating tweaking it because of said 3 game sample. OK, got it.

I was talking about the conversation going on placing Zeller and Mickey ahead of Jerebko.

I could see JJ or Amir in the starting lineup. I think once KO is back that Jerebko loses his minutes anyways.

[Kuberski33]

I like JJ as a player but the way he's been going lately he's lucky he's still in the rotation.  Granted it's been 3 games.  Amir has been fine. He's probably not a starter on most good teams but on this one he is.