It's time to start JJ over Amir

[BudweiserCeltic]

Absolutely. Agreed about JJ > Amir individually at PF + better fit alongside rest of starting unit.

Well you've always had a soft spot for JJ, still JJ has been terrible so far this season.

I'll also point out that we've been pretty good to start games, so...

Let's also point out that so far our real only struggle is rebounding... and Jerebko so far has been our worst rebounder other than Brown.

But if you want to move away from Amir, why not try Zeller over Jerebko? Not my preference, but still more deserving.

I'd also try Brown at SF, who's already playing in crunch time with our starters as it is, before trying Jerebko. Sucks rebounding, but is doing a lot of good stuff out there.

I'd also try Jordan Mickey at PF, who's one of our best rebounders, prior to defaulting into Jerebko...

Would Jerebko play better with our starters? Sure, but that should be true just about anyone, sadly his performance says that he should be eating the bench rather than being promoted to the starters.

[hwangjini_1]

quite the set of reactions considering it has only been 3 games so far. what next? a call to cut him?

[TrueFan]

I think Jerebko over Amir coupd work. He would help space the floor on offense.

The only problem I have is that he's sort of a taller and less skilled version of Jae Crowder. They both can go into terrible shooting slumps. That could be a problem if they are both off that night.

One positive is Amir could come in with the second unit and then we no longer need Zeller. I would probably ok this move just to get Zeller out of the rotation.

[Who]

Absolutely. Agreed about JJ > Amir individually at PF + better fit alongside rest of starting unit.

Well you've always had a soft spot for JJ, still JJ has been terrible so far this season.

I'll also point out that we've been pretty good to start games, so...

Let's also point out that so far our real only struggle is rebounding... and Jerebko so far has been our worst rebounder other than Brown.

But if you want to move away from Amir, why not try Zeller over Jerebko? Not my preference, but still more deserving.

I'd also try Brown at SF, who's already playing in crunch time with our starters as it is, before trying Jerebko. Sucks rebounding, but is doing a lot of good stuff out there.

I'd also try Jordan Mickey at PF, who's one of our best rebounders, prior to defaulting into Jerebko...

Would Jerebko play better with our starters? Sure, but that should be true just about anyone, sadly his performance says that he should be eating the bench rather than being promoted to the starters.

Jerebko vs Zeller = defensive quickness / energy + ball-handling, passing, transition offense and extra range on his jump shot

Mickey = I don't trust him yet. I am happy with him as a reserve playing against other reserve players. Let him get used to that level and prove he can be useful there rather than throwing him in against more talented starting caliber players. Maybe things can change further down the road.

Jaylen Brown = I like the way Jaylen is being used right now. Those small ball options later in games rather than to start. To change the pace of games. I would keep that as it is. I want to avoid Crowder playing full time / too much time at PF. Starting Jerebko allows that.

[jpotter33]

Absolutely. Agreed about JJ > Amir individually at PF + better fit alongside rest of starting unit.

Well you've always had a soft spot for JJ, still JJ has been terrible so far this season.

I'll also point out that we've been pretty good to start games, so...

Let's also point out that so far our real only struggle is rebounding... and Jerebko so far has been our worst rebounder other than Brown.

But if you want to move away from Amir, why not try Zeller over Jerebko? Not my preference, but still more deserving.

I'd also try Brown at SF, who's already playing in crunch time with our starters as it is, before trying Jerebko. Sucks rebounding, but is doing a lot of good stuff out there.

I'd also try Jordan Mickey at PF, who's one of our best rebounders, prior to defaulting into Jerebko...

Would Jerebko play better with our starters? Sure, but that should be true just about anyone, sadly his performance says that he should be eating the bench rather than being promoted to the starters.

1) Outisde of ORB%, which is easily explained by the differing games of Amir and JJ - JJ can shoot and Amir can't, JJ's rebounding percentages are pretty close to Amir's percentages. Further, once again, moving Horford closer to the basket will only increase his rebounding percentages and bring them more in line with his career percentages and what we saw in preseason. He's been forced to be more out on the perimeter due to Amir's deficiencies.

2) Zeller doesn't help any of the things I mentioned, because he's a pure center. He's probably worse than Amir defensively, and though he might provide a bit more spacing than Amir, he still clogs the lane and forces Horford out on the perimeter.

3) It's a joke to consider Brown as a starter with this lineup. That'd make us nearly a historically small-team, would kill our rebounding even more, and would put a rookie in the starting lineup guarding the Lebron's, Melo's, and KD's of the world when he's been pretty terrible with his perimeter defense already.

4) The same thing can be said about Mickey. It's funny that you're making fun of the idea of playing JJ more when you're advocating for playing Mickey, who can barely even get trash minutes for us.

It's convenient that you ignore how well JJ played with the actual starters in this whole conversation, and it's even more convenient that you ignore that this move goes way beyond the individual play of JJ. In fact, it has just as much, if not more, to do with the benefits outside of JJ's individual game as it does with his individual game.

[walker834]

These threads are really tired.  Let's jump off a cliff over Amir now.  Wasn't it a known that we would play less minutes this year?  People are criticizing him for what was expected of him?  The addition of Horford has basically cut his minutes.  He's still doing what he does out there.  It's 3 games into the season.   The internet is really full of junk most days.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Absolutely. Agreed about JJ > Amir individually at PF + better fit alongside rest of starting unit.

Well you've always had a soft spot for JJ, still JJ has been terrible so far this season.

I'll also point out that we've been pretty good to start games, so...

Let's also point out that so far our real only struggle is rebounding... and Jerebko so far has been our worst rebounder other than Brown.

But if you want to move away from Amir, why not try Zeller over Jerebko? Not my preference, but still more deserving.

I'd also try Brown at SF, who's already playing in crunch time with our starters as it is, before trying Jerebko. Sucks rebounding, but is doing a lot of good stuff out there.

I'd also try Jordan Mickey at PF, who's one of our best rebounders, prior to defaulting into Jerebko...

Would Jerebko play better with our starters? Sure, but that should be true just about anyone, sadly his performance says that he should be eating the bench rather than being promoted to the starters.

1) Outisde of ORB%, which is easily explained by the differing games of Amir and JJ - JJ can shoot and Amir can't, JJ's rebounding percentages are pretty close to Amir's percentages. Further, once again, moving Horford closer to the basket will only increase his rebounding percentages and bring them more in line with his career percentages and what we saw in preseason. He's been forced to be more out on the perimeter due to Amir's deficiencies.

2) Zeller doesn't help any of the things I mentioned, because he's a pure center. He's probably worse than Amir defensively, and though he might provide a bit more spacing than Amir, he still clogs the lane and forces Horford out on the perimeter.

3) It's a joke to consider Brown as a starter with this lineup. That'd make us nearly a historically small-team, would kill our rebounding even more, and would put a rookie in the starting lineup guarding the Lebron's, Melo's, and KD's of the world when he's been pretty terrible with his perimeter defense already.

4) The same thing can be said about Mickey. It's funny that you're making fun of the idea of playing JJ more when you're advocating for playing Mickey, who can barely even get trash minutes for us.

It's convenient that you ignore how well JJ played with the actual starters in this whole conversation, and it's even more convenient that you ignore that this move goes way beyond the individual play of JJ. In fact, it has just as much, if not more, to do with the benefits outside of JJ's individual game as it does with his individual game.

I haven't ignored anything, I'm just not letting myself get swayed by a factor that holds true with just about everyone in the team, or one playoff series last season over current performance.

When Jerebko starts playing better, and better than his other teammates, come back at me.

[Big333223]

I think 3 games in, changing the starting lineup is an overreaction.

That said, if Amir's play continues this way, I agree it would be worth seeing what Jerebko can do with the starters. For some reason, he's had a pair of good showings in the playoffs after bad/uneven regular seasons. If Amir continues to disappoint and Olynyk takes longer to get back than we think he should, Jerebko would be an experiment worth trying.

It is early, but I think there's enough evidence to support such a position.

I think the worst part of it is we're just totally misusing Horford both offensively and defensively due to Amir's deficiencies. He's been a center his entire career, and unless we get a major upgrade like a Cousins or Noel type, he probably should stay a center. Just look at Horford's rebounding percentages to see how much he's been affected by this change.

EDIT: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01.html

His ORB% is down 5%; his DRB% is down 1.3%; and his TRB% is down 2.4%. That is definitely associated with him being out on the perimeter more than he's ever been in his career.

I hate to say it, but: small sample size alert. Avery Bradley is shooting 67% from 3 right now. These numbers are not necessarily indicative of a larger trend yet.

[walker834]

Amir is a nice weapon to have.  He's 29 on the back end of a short contract.  He fits here as a guy who can play next to Horford.  He does a lot of little things and is a legit PF and a cagey vet.  We are lacking in physicality and Amir is that guy right now.  He just needs to step up.  We are 3 games in lol.

This is what is lacking in sports though.  Even if we can't go out and get someone Amir could be extended as well.  We are going to draft or make a trade.  Guys like Zeller, Amir and players like jerebko decisions will be made but some loyalty to these guys is good.

Not many teams even have a  guy as good and unselfish, experienced and versatile as Amir as a PF. He fits what we need right now.

[jpotter33]

I think 3 games in, changing the starting lineup is an overreaction.

That said, if Amir's play continues this way, I agree it would be worth seeing what Jerebko can do with the starters. For some reason, he's had a pair of good showings in the playoffs after bad/uneven regular seasons. If Amir continues to disappoint and Olynyk takes longer to get back than we think he should, Jerebko would be an experiment worth trying.

It is early, but I think there's enough evidence to support such a position.

I think the worst part of it is we're just totally misusing Horford both offensively and defensively due to Amir's deficiencies. He's been a center his entire career, and unless we get a major upgrade like a Cousins or Noel type, he probably should stay a center. Just look at Horford's rebounding percentages to see how much he's been affected by this change.

EDIT: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01.html

His ORB% is down 5%; his DRB% is down 1.3%; and his TRB% is down 2.4%. That is definitely associated with him being out on the perimeter more than he's ever been in his career.

I hate to say it, but: small sample size alert. Avery Bradley is shooting 67% from 3 right now. These numbers are not necessarily indicative of a larger trend yet.

Shooting is a completely different statistic than rebounding. While shooting, especially from the three, is naturally variable, rebounding is much less variable. And it's no coincidence that Horford's rebounding numbers are falling once he started playing a different position that put him out on the perimeter and away from the basket more.

[jpotter33]

Absolutely. Agreed about JJ > Amir individually at PF + better fit alongside rest of starting unit.

Well you've always had a soft spot for JJ, still JJ has been terrible so far this season.

I'll also point out that we've been pretty good to start games, so...

Let's also point out that so far our real only struggle is rebounding... and Jerebko so far has been our worst rebounder other than Brown.

But if you want to move away from Amir, why not try Zeller over Jerebko? Not my preference, but still more deserving.

I'd also try Brown at SF, who's already playing in crunch time with our starters as it is, before trying Jerebko. Sucks rebounding, but is doing a lot of good stuff out there.

I'd also try Jordan Mickey at PF, who's one of our best rebounders, prior to defaulting into Jerebko...

Would Jerebko play better with our starters? Sure, but that should be true just about anyone, sadly his performance says that he should be eating the bench rather than being promoted to the starters.

1) Outisde of ORB%, which is easily explained by the differing games of Amir and JJ - JJ can shoot and Amir can't, JJ's rebounding percentages are pretty close to Amir's percentages. Further, once again, moving Horford closer to the basket will only increase his rebounding percentages and bring them more in line with his career percentages and what we saw in preseason. He's been forced to be more out on the perimeter due to Amir's deficiencies.

2) Zeller doesn't help any of the things I mentioned, because he's a pure center. He's probably worse than Amir defensively, and though he might provide a bit more spacing than Amir, he still clogs the lane and forces Horford out on the perimeter.

3) It's a joke to consider Brown as a starter with this lineup. That'd make us nearly a historically small-team, would kill our rebounding even more, and would put a rookie in the starting lineup guarding the Lebron's, Melo's, and KD's of the world when he's been pretty terrible with his perimeter defense already.

4) The same thing can be said about Mickey. It's funny that you're making fun of the idea of playing JJ more when you're advocating for playing Mickey, who can barely even get trash minutes for us.

It's convenient that you ignore how well JJ played with the actual starters in this whole conversation, and it's even more convenient that you ignore that this move goes way beyond the individual play of JJ. In fact, it has just as much, if not more, to do with the benefits outside of JJ's individual game as it does with his individual game.

I haven't ignored anything, I'm just not letting myself get swayed by a factor that holds true with just about everyone in the team, or one playoff series last season over current performance.

When Jerebko starts playing better, and better than his other teammates, come back at me.

Oh, you're not being swayed by the evidence that goes against the narrative you're pushing and is the very thing that I'm arguing? Hmm, I wonder why that is...

Come back at me when you have an actual argument with substance other than JJ not playing well in the first three games of the season. 

It's clear that JJ is a much better fit next to Horford than Amir, whose offense is virtually non-existent at this point, and I've been beating that drum since this summer. Amir was a good fit for us last year as a starter, but he's not an ideal fit next to Horford. He'd be an excellent back-up big for us, but he's not starting material with us with Horford now.

[jpotter33]

Amir is a nice weapon to have.  He's 29 on the back end of a short contract.  He fits here as a guy who can play next to Horford.  He does a lot of little things and is a legit PF and a cagey vet.  We are lacking in physicality and Amir is that guy right now.  He just needs to step up.  We are 3 games in lol.

This is what is lacking in sports though.  Even if we can't go out and get someone Amir could be extended as well.  We are going to draft or make a trade.  Guys like Zeller, Amir and players like jerebko decisions will be made but some loyalty to these guys is good.

Not many teams even have a  guy as good and unselfish, experienced and versatile as Amir as a PF. He fits what we need right now.

1) He does not fit next to Horford. That much is very clear, especially offensively.

2) No matter what the lists say, he is our center, not our power forward, which is a problem since Horford is primarily a center.

Look, I'm not advocating that we play him any less. He only plays 18 minutes a game anyways, and I just think that 18 minutes should be when Horford is on the bench. He should be our primary back-up big until Olynyk gets here. But it is absolutely clear that he is not a great fit with Horford and would be best suited off the bench, which would allow Horford to go back to his natural position of center and give us a more versatile offensive and defensive balance.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Absolutely. Agreed about JJ > Amir individually at PF + better fit alongside rest of starting unit.

Well you've always had a soft spot for JJ, still JJ has been terrible so far this season.

I'll also point out that we've been pretty good to start games, so...

Let's also point out that so far our real only struggle is rebounding... and Jerebko so far has been our worst rebounder other than Brown.

But if you want to move away from Amir, why not try Zeller over Jerebko? Not my preference, but still more deserving.

I'd also try Brown at SF, who's already playing in crunch time with our starters as it is, before trying Jerebko. Sucks rebounding, but is doing a lot of good stuff out there.

I'd also try Jordan Mickey at PF, who's one of our best rebounders, prior to defaulting into Jerebko...

Would Jerebko play better with our starters? Sure, but that should be true just about anyone, sadly his performance says that he should be eating the bench rather than being promoted to the starters.

1) Outisde of ORB%, which is easily explained by the differing games of Amir and JJ - JJ can shoot and Amir can't, JJ's rebounding percentages are pretty close to Amir's percentages. Further, once again, moving Horford closer to the basket will only increase his rebounding percentages and bring them more in line with his career percentages and what we saw in preseason. He's been forced to be more out on the perimeter due to Amir's deficiencies.

2) Zeller doesn't help any of the things I mentioned, because he's a pure center. He's probably worse than Amir defensively, and though he might provide a bit more spacing than Amir, he still clogs the lane and forces Horford out on the perimeter.

3) It's a joke to consider Brown as a starter with this lineup. That'd make us nearly a historically small-team, would kill our rebounding even more, and would put a rookie in the starting lineup guarding the Lebron's, Melo's, and KD's of the world when he's been pretty terrible with his perimeter defense already.

4) The same thing can be said about Mickey. It's funny that you're making fun of the idea of playing JJ more when you're advocating for playing Mickey, who can barely even get trash minutes for us.

It's convenient that you ignore how well JJ played with the actual starters in this whole conversation, and it's even more convenient that you ignore that this move goes way beyond the individual play of JJ. In fact, it has just as much, if not more, to do with the benefits outside of JJ's individual game as it does with his individual game.

I haven't ignored anything, I'm just not letting myself get swayed by a factor that holds true with just about everyone in the team, or one playoff series last season over current performance.

When Jerebko starts playing better, and better than his other teammates, come back at me.

Oh, you're not being swayed by the evidence that goes against the narrative you're pushing and is the very thing that I'm arguing? Hmm, I wonder why that is...

Come back at me when you have an actual argument with substance other than JJ not playing well in the first three games of the season. 

It's clear that JJ is a much better fit next to Horford than Amir, whose offense is virtually non-existent at this point, and I've been beating that drum since this summer. Amir was a good fit for us last year as a starter, but he's not an ideal fit next to Horford. He'd be an excellent back-up big for us, but he's not starting material with us with Horford now.

I'm not painting a narrative other than Jerebko has been quite bad, and has been so since preaseason as well, this season. But for you this season so far is important as long as we don't measure Jerebko by it.

[walker834]

Amir is a nice weapon to have.  He's 29 on the back end of a short contract.  He fits here as a guy who can play next to Horford.  He does a lot of little things and is a legit PF and a cagey vet.  We are lacking in physicality and Amir is that guy right now.  He just needs to step up.  We are 3 games in lol.

This is what is lacking in sports though.  Even if we can't go out and get someone Amir could be extended as well.  We are going to draft or make a trade.  Guys like Zeller, Amir and players like jerebko decisions will be made but some loyalty to these guys is good.

Not many teams even have a  guy as good and unselfish, experienced and versatile as Amir as a PF. He fits what we need right now.

1) He does not fit next to Horford. That much is very clear, especially offensively.

2) No matter what the lists say, he is our center, not our power forward, which is a problem since Horford is primarily a center.

Look, I'm not advocating that we play him any less. He only plays 18 minutes a game anyways, and I just think that 18 minutes should be when Horford is on the bench. He should be our primary back-up big until Olynyk gets here. But it is absolutely clear that he is not a great fit with Horford and would be best suited off the bench, which would allow Horford to go back to his natural position of center and give us a more versatile offensive and defensive balance.

KO could beat him out.  If KO has improved defensively that is and gives us more range.  Horford steps out as it is though.  I think Amir is versatile where he could go to the bench and back up both positions but he can also start.

Ultimately we need someone even younger and athletic there but Amir is really fine to go with KO.  Brown and Crowder and jerebko fit into the mix too and Mickey.

He's basically playing like 18 mpg lol which is what I expected. Zeller and jerebko are going to lose minutes if anything with the return of Smart and KO.

Amir could lose minutes to those guys and KO and Mickey ultimately but we are 3 games in lol.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I kinda hope we don't start KO simply so he doesn't qualify for the starter criteria which would worsen chances of keeping him after this season.