ESPN Celtics Roundtable

[gift]

Amin Elhassan: I've heard from people who are feeling like there's a little bit too much . . . admiration for Brad Stevens that is a little unfounded. I like him, I think he is one of the best young coaches we have in the league, but this is an opinion that is not shared league wide, let me just say that right now.

Haberstroh: Jimmy Butler for Avery Bradley, Amir Johnson, the 2017 Brooklyn Nets first-rounder (for which Boston has swap rights) and another first-rounder. If the Bulls' highly-flammable situation combusts in the early going, don't be surprised if the Celtics make a godfather offer for Butler. The Bulls' rebuild may be near.

I didn't like either of these two statements.

Elhassan definitely doesn't know what he's talking about. Everyone has complimented Brad. There's no one who has said he isn't among the brightest young coaches in the league. You hear it from opposing players, coaches, GMs, LeBron said it.

The trade is a massive overpay. I would never do that.

Agree on both. Feels like Elhassan is trying to throw shade, but not be responsible for criticizing Brad by attributing it to other people.

Also, no way that trade gets made. In fact, I don't really see the Celtics wanting Butler while they have Crowder and Brown. Not the best fits all together. Wouldn't give up the Nets swap for Butler straight up right now anyway. Nets pick only goes out for the highest tier star.

And if things aren't working in Chicago, that only lowers Butler's value. Doesn't mean you have to make a "godfather offer" anymore.

[Csfan1984]

Engelmann: With the Warriors so strong, the Celtics should probably wait another year before making big moves. On the other hand, if a star becomes disgruntled and demands a trade -- I think Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins are strong candidates here -- the Celtics might want to pull the trigger.

Okay, Anthony Davis is not going to be available at all.

BUT... DeMarcus Cousins I think is the most realistic trade target at the trade deadline. Unless the Kings are miraculously a top-5 team in the West this season, the Kings will probably deal him. His value will be much higher if they deal him with 1.5 years left on his contract than if he's just a rental in the next offseason.

Also, I think adding Cousins would create a lot of mismatches against teams like Cleveland and Golden State that Boston can take advantage of. Maybe he doesn't push us over the Cavaliers in a playoff series but there is definitely a much better chance of it happening. And a Horford/Cousins front court would be DEADLY.

What do you guys think? If he's available and a deal is something like (or close to) 2017 Nets Pick, Bradley/Smart, another first rounder, Amir Johnson, and a young player not named Rozier or Brown, would you pull the trigger at the deadline?

Zeller, Brown, Smart and Nets 2018 is what I think it will take. I also think it is a fair deal.

[Phantom255x]

Amin Elhassan: I've heard from people who are feeling like there's a little bit too much . . . admiration for Brad Stevens that is a little unfounded. I like him, I think he is one of the best young coaches we have in the league, but this is an opinion that is not shared league wide, let me just say that right now.

Haberstroh: Jimmy Butler for Avery Bradley, Amir Johnson, the 2017 Brooklyn Nets first-rounder (for which Boston has swap rights) and another first-rounder. If the Bulls' highly-flammable situation combusts in the early going, don't be surprised if the Celtics make a godfather offer for Butler. The Bulls' rebuild may be near.

I didn't like either of these two statements.

Elhassan definitely doesn't know what he's talking about. Everyone has complimented Brad. There's no one who has said he isn't among the brightest young coaches in the league. You hear it from opposing players, coaches, GMs, LeBron said it.

The trade is a massive overpay. I would never do that.

Agree on both. Feels like Elhassan is trying to throw shade, but not be responsible for criticizing Brad by attributing it to other people.

Also, no way that trade gets made. In fact, I don't really see the Celtics wanting Butler while they have Crowder and Brown. Not the best fits all together. Wouldn't give up the Nets swap for Butler straight up right now anyway. Nets pick only goes out for the highest tier star.

And if things aren't working in Chicago, that only lowers Butler's value. Doesn't mean you have to make a "godfather offer" anymore.

If the Kings make Cousins available, would you give up the Nets swap for him or no?

I feel like no one else of that caliber will really be available at the trade deadline. Not Griffin or Westbrook or Butler either.

[Phantom255x]

Engelmann: With the Warriors so strong, the Celtics should probably wait another year before making big moves. On the other hand, if a star becomes disgruntled and demands a trade -- I think Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins are strong candidates here -- the Celtics might want to pull the trigger.

Okay, Anthony Davis is not going to be available at all.

BUT... DeMarcus Cousins I think is the most realistic trade target at the trade deadline. Unless the Kings are miraculously a top-5 team in the West this season, the Kings will probably deal him. His value will be much higher if they deal him with 1.5 years left on his contract than if he's just a rental in the next offseason.

Also, I think adding Cousins would create a lot of mismatches against teams like Cleveland and Golden State that Boston can take advantage of. Maybe he doesn't push us over the Cavaliers in a playoff series but there is definitely a much better chance of it happening. And a Horford/Cousins front court would be DEADLY.

What do you guys think? If he's available and a deal is something like (or close to) 2017 Nets Pick, Bradley/Smart, another first rounder, Amir Johnson, and a young player not named Rozier or Brown, would you pull the trigger at the deadline?

Zeller, Brown, Smart and Nets 2018 is what I think it will take. I also think it is a fair deal.

It is a fair deal.

My thinking is that the Kings would rather try and strike gold by getting the 2017 pick. Who knows if the Nets will still be the worst in the league by 2018 (depending on other teams as well).

And Kings may want another non-Nets pick as a sweetener, but that sounds good. Although I really would like to keep at least one of Brown/Smart if possible.

[Moranis]

Engelmann: With the Warriors so strong, the Celtics should probably wait another year before making big moves. On the other hand, if a star becomes disgruntled and demands a trade -- I think Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins are strong candidates here -- the Celtics might want to pull the trigger.

Okay, Anthony Davis is not going to be available at all.

BUT... DeMarcus Cousins I think is the most realistic trade target at the trade deadline. Unless the Kings are miraculously a top-5 team in the West this season, the Kings will probably deal him. His value will be much higher if they deal him with 1.5 years left on his contract than if he's just a rental in the next offseason.

Also, I think adding Cousins would create a lot of mismatches against teams like Cleveland and Golden State that Boston can take advantage of. Maybe he doesn't push us over the Cavaliers in a playoff series but there is definitely a much better chance of it happening. And a Horford/Cousins front court would be DEADLY.

What do you guys think? If he's available and a deal is something like (or close to) 2017 Nets Pick, Bradley/Smart, another first rounder, Amir Johnson, and a young player not named Rozier or Brown, would you pull the trigger at the deadline?

Zeller, Brown, Smart and Nets 2018 is what I think it will take. I also think it is a fair deal.

It is a fair deal.

My thinking is that the Kings would rather try and strike gold by getting the 2017 pick. Who knows if the Nets will still be the worst in the league by 2018 (depending on other teams as well).

And Kings may want another non-Nets pick as a sweetener, but that sounds good. Although I really would like to keep at least one of Brown/Smart if possible.

If acquiring Cousins, Boston is going all in, so trading Brown, Smart, and a Nets pick makes the most sense.  Those are the most value and also the least win now oriented assets. 

[tazzmaniac]

Engelmann: With the Warriors so strong, the Celtics should probably wait another year before making big moves. On the other hand, if a star becomes disgruntled and demands a trade -- I think Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins are strong candidates here -- the Celtics might want to pull the trigger.

Okay, Anthony Davis is not going to be available at all.

BUT... DeMarcus Cousins I think is the most realistic trade target at the trade deadline. Unless the Kings are miraculously a top-5 team in the West this season, the Kings will probably deal him. His value will be much higher if they deal him with 1.5 years left on his contract than if he's just a rental in the next offseason.

Also, I think adding Cousins would create a lot of mismatches against teams like Cleveland and Golden State that Boston can take advantage of. Maybe he doesn't push us over the Cavaliers in a playoff series but there is definitely a much better chance of it happening. And a Horford/Cousins front court would be DEADLY.

What do you guys think? If he's available and a deal is something like (or close to) 2017 Nets Pick, Bradley/Smart, another first rounder, Amir Johnson, and a young player not named Rozier or Brown, would you pull the trigger at the deadline?

Zeller, Brown, Smart and Nets 2018 is what I think it will take. I also think it is a fair deal.

It is a fair deal.

My thinking is that the Kings would rather try and strike gold by getting the 2017 pick. Who knows if the Nets will still be the worst in the league by 2018 (depending on other teams as well).

And Kings may want another non-Nets pick as a sweetener, but that sounds good. Although I really would like to keep at least one of Brown/Smart if possible.

If acquiring Cousins, Boston is going all in, so trading Brown, Smart, and a Nets pick makes the most sense.  Those are the most value and also the least win now oriented assets.

I'm not a big Smart fan but I think his defense can help us win now.  Also giving up Smart puts it all on Rozier to run the 2nd unit offense.  If they'd trade us Cousins now rather than the trade deadline, I'd give up both Nets picks if they preferred that to a Nets pick and Brown. 

[FreddieJ]

Kings probably wouldn't want Brooklyn 17 in that hypothetical, it's a swap, with a Cousins-less Kings/Sixers (lowest)

[tazzmaniac]

Kings probably wouldn't want Brooklyn 17 in that hypothetical, it's a swap, with a Cousins-less Kings/Sixers (lowest)

Our swap with the Nets is completely separate from the Sixers swap with the Kings.   The Kings would get the better pick of the Nets and Celtics picks and the Nets would get the worse.  We wouldn't have a pick in 17 anymore. 

The Kings would also get the lesser of the Sixers pick and their own pick assuming it is in the top 10.  If it is outside the top 10, the pick goes to Chicago.   

[TheSundanceKid]

Horford's signing did almost nothing to address the 4 major areas of concern from last years team (in no particular order):

1. Shot blocking
2. Rebounding
3. #1 scoring option
4. consistent/efficient 3 point shooting

You see that is why I've pretty consistently said that while Horford is a significantly better player than Sullinger, I don't see his signing as adding much to win the win column of Boston.  Horford's strengths are already strengths on the team and his weaknesses unfortunately are weaknesses on the team.

Shot blocking isn't an issue, interior defence was. Horford is a huge upgrade over our other bigs in that area.

Rebounding I think he's a net neutral. Not as good as Sully but better than the others. And he will play more minutes that Sully so the team average will be the same.

He isn't a #1 scoring option but without landing Durant we weren't getting that this summer. He does make life a lot easier for our current #1 option though so it's a minor plus.

He has a consistent 3 pt shot, certainly an upgrade over Sully

The other thing for all of these is i expect a lot of internal growth from our young players. We should expect them all to take a step forward and minimise each of those categories collectively. The results still need to be delivered but I'm hopeful

[kozlodoev]

Engelmann: With the Warriors so strong, the Celtics should probably wait another year before making big moves. On the other hand, if a star becomes disgruntled and demands a trade -- I think Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins are strong candidates here -- the Celtics might want to pull the trigger.

Okay, Anthony Davis is not going to be available at all.

BUT... DeMarcus Cousins I think is the most realistic trade target at the trade deadline. Unless the Kings are miraculously a top-5 team in the West this season, the Kings will probably deal him. His value will be much higher if they deal him with 1.5 years left on his contract than if he's just a rental in the next offseason.

Also, I think adding Cousins would create a lot of mismatches against teams like Cleveland and Golden State that Boston can take advantage of. Maybe he doesn't push us over the Cavaliers in a playoff series but there is definitely a much better chance of it happening. And a Horford/Cousins front court would be DEADLY.

What do you guys think? If he's available and a deal is something like (or close to) 2017 Nets Pick, Bradley/Smart, another first rounder, Amir Johnson, and a young player not named Rozier or Brown, would you pull the trigger at the deadline?

It's not happening. You better learn how to live with that fact

[KGs Knee]

I think the thing people do not appreciate yet about Horford is his playmaking.  Having a true legit option to run offense through as a facilitator is huge.  No one else we had previously was on his level at this aspect of the game.

Also, I think we will see his rebounding numbers increase this year if he plays PF alongside Amir for a large enough percent of his minutes.  Horford has looked very good so far rebounding against small ball fours.  We'll see how he does against some more traditional PF's.  Having someone else be able to contend with the oppositions interior rebounder frees up Horford to crash the glass mostly unimpeded.  This puts him in a much better position to fight for rebounds.

[jpotter33]

Horford's signing did almost nothing to address the 4 major areas of concern from last years team (in no particular order):

1. Shot blocking
2. Rebounding
3. #1 scoring option
4. consistent/efficient 3 point shooting

You see that is why I've pretty consistently said that while Horford is a significantly better player than Sullinger, I don't see his signing as adding much to win the win column of Boston.  Horford's strengths are already strengths on the team and his weaknesses unfortunately are weaknesses on the team.

I disagree with 1, 2, and 4 (kind of).

1) With our perimeter and overall team D, I really don't think "shot blocking" is as big of an issue as you make it out to be. Horford is by far our best blocking big, yet we were still a number 4 defense last year without him. I think shot blocking is overrated, especially when you have a strong, cohesive perimeter and team D to overcompensate for it.

2) The rebounding issue is overblown, too. I know it's only two games in the preseason, but Horford has owned the boards so far without an elite rebounder next to him. Amir is also a serviceable rebounder himself. We won't be a top rebounding team, but I don't think it's going to really hurt or cripple us anyways. Plus, when we trade for Boogie this will be a non-issue. 

3) Agree on this.

4) Somewhat agree on this, but adding Horford is big for us in this regard. He's a much better floor-spacer than Sully, which will open up so much more space for IT. So while Horford isn't an elite three point shooter, though he is still probably top 10 for starters at the big position from three point range, he does add additional floor spacing at the big position that just wasn't there last year in our starting lineup, which is huge for IT.

[jpotter33]

Engelmann: With the Warriors so strong, the Celtics should probably wait another year before making big moves. On the other hand, if a star becomes disgruntled and demands a trade -- I think Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins are strong candidates here -- the Celtics might want to pull the trigger.

Okay, Anthony Davis is not going to be available at all.

BUT... DeMarcus Cousins I think is the most realistic trade target at the trade deadline. Unless the Kings are miraculously a top-5 team in the West this season, the Kings will probably deal him. His value will be much higher if they deal him with 1.5 years left on his contract than if he's just a rental in the next offseason.

Also, I think adding Cousins would create a lot of mismatches against teams like Cleveland and Golden State that Boston can take advantage of. Maybe he doesn't push us over the Cavaliers in a playoff series but there is definitely a much better chance of it happening. And a Horford/Cousins front court would be DEADLY.

What do you guys think? If he's available and a deal is something like (or close to) 2017 Nets Pick, Bradley/Smart, another first rounder, Amir Johnson, and a young player not named Rozier or Brown, would you pull the trigger at the deadline?

It's not happening. You better learn how to live with that fact

Really? I kind of feel like the stars are aligning for the trade to finally happen this year. The combination of a deep Western Conference (virtually already eliminating the Kings from the playoffs), the center logjam in Sacramento, Boogie's free agent/contract status in two years, and the attractiveness of the Brooklyn pick being a potential top pick seems to strong of a case to not trade him.

Granted, we're also talking about the NBA equivalents to Donald Trump in Ranadive and Divac in Sacramento , so who knows.

[tazzmaniac]

Engelmann: With the Warriors so strong, the Celtics should probably wait another year before making big moves. On the other hand, if a star becomes disgruntled and demands a trade -- I think Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins are strong candidates here -- the Celtics might want to pull the trigger.

Okay, Anthony Davis is not going to be available at all.

BUT... DeMarcus Cousins I think is the most realistic trade target at the trade deadline. Unless the Kings are miraculously a top-5 team in the West this season, the Kings will probably deal him. His value will be much higher if they deal him with 1.5 years left on his contract than if he's just a rental in the next offseason.

Also, I think adding Cousins would create a lot of mismatches against teams like Cleveland and Golden State that Boston can take advantage of. Maybe he doesn't push us over the Cavaliers in a playoff series but there is definitely a much better chance of it happening. And a Horford/Cousins front court would be DEADLY.

What do you guys think? If he's available and a deal is something like (or close to) 2017 Nets Pick, Bradley/Smart, another first rounder, Amir Johnson, and a young player not named Rozier or Brown, would you pull the trigger at the deadline?

It's not happening. You better learn how to live with that fact

Really? I kind of feel like the stars are aligning for the trade to finally happen this year. The combination of a deep Western Conference (virtually already eliminating the Kings from the playoffs), the center logjam in Sacramento, Boogie's free agent/contract status in two years, and the attractiveness of the Brooklyn pick being a potential top pick seems to strong of a case to not trade him.

Granted, we're also talking about the NBA equivalents to Donald Trump in Ranadive and Divac in Sacramento , so who knows.

The Kings should trade Cousins soon to get best value but they have a new arena so that makes it hard to trade your star attraction especially for picks.  They've also got another new coach so they'll want to see if that makes a difference.  Hopefully the Kings start off bad and Jaylen looks like a stud in the early season.   

[chambers]

I was shocked at the comment about Stevens being overhyped.
Who the hell is this chump ? Who of any standing does he talk with? Bizarre.