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ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« on: October 10, 2016, 09:06:20 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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1. Fact or Fiction: Al Horford is the star Boston's been looking for.

Tom Haberstroh, ESPN Insider: Fiction. They should be thrilled with the one-two punch of adding a versatile All-Star big man and stealing him away from a conference rival. But to be a true championship contender, Horford can't be their best player. The C's are still searching for that superstar -- and that's totally OK.

Amin Elhassan, ESPN Insider: Fiction. He's definitely a star, and represents an improvement to the roster. But the transformative star Boston is looking for -- and for which the franchise has hoarded assets the last three seasons --didn't walk through that door yet. Kevin Durant was the star they'd been looking for, but Horford is a hell of a consolation prize.

Jeremias Engelmann, ESPN Insider: Fiction. Given their history, the Celtics are unlikely to be satisfied by anything but a title. Although I like Horford -- he ranked 27th in Real Plus-Minus (RPM) last season -- he's not good enough to lead them to a championship, given that the Warriors have three players in RPM's top eight. In fact, the Celtics probably need another star just to make it out of the Eastern Conference

Chris Forsberg, ESPN.com: Fact. But beggars can't be choosers. The Celtics would have loved Kevin Durant to be the star they've been looking for, too. Still, Horford is such a perfect fit for Brad Stevens' team (especially the way the ball goes through the bigs on offense). Boston is outscoring opponents by 55.7 points per 100 possessions while Horford is on the floor through his first two preseason appearances.

Kevin Pelton, ESPN Insider: Fiction. The Celtics pitched Kevin Durant the day they signed Horford, after all. Their quest for an elite shot creator on offense isn't over now that they've added Horford. But he still represents a two-way upgrade on the more limited big men on last season's roster.


2. What's the biggest issue facing the Celtics this season?

Haberstroh: Another scoring wing. Relying on Gerald Green is a mistake, but they won't have much of a choice once Isaiah Thomas steps off the floor. Second-year guards R.J. Hunter and Terry Rozier are breakout candidates, though.

Elhassan: Two crucial concerns: One, there is a dearth of pure 3-point shooting on the roster. Despite being in the top half of the league in makes and attempts, the Celtics were bottom three in efficiency from downtown last season. Two, the other possible issue is the still-unclear hierarchy on the roster. Is this still Thomas' team?

Ethan Strauss: I feel like we're pricing in the Brad Stevens effect. Maybe we're operating under a false assumption that he just adds a few wins to the wins that Al Horford already brings with him.

Amin Elhassan: I've heard from people who are feeling like there's a little bit too much . . . admiration for Brad Stevens that is a little unfounded. I like him, I think he is one of the best young coaches we have in the league, but this is an opinion that is not shared league wide, let me just say that right now.

Engelmann: Their depth at the wing positions is a little thin. With Terry Rozier, R.J. Hunter and Jaylen Brown they have 3 players that can develop into productive NBA players, but none of them is there yet. Also, they were 26th in defensive rebounding rate last season -- a facet of the game in which Horford doesn't excel either.

Forsberg: Shooting. There's no reason this team shouldn't be a top-3 defense (they tied for fourth in defensive rating last season without Horford) and that will give Boston a chance to compete on a nightly basis. The Celtics ranked 24th in effective field goal percentage last year and need to more consistently make 3-point shots. The other big issue: A healthy Cleveland team.

Pelton: Besides the existence of LeBron James? It's their continued reliance on Isaiah Thomas to create offense, particularly with the departure of Evan Turner. According to NBAwowy.com, Boston's offense mustered an anemic 92.0 offensive rating in a small number of minutes last season (246) with neither Thomas nor Turner on the court.

3. Fact or Fiction: Isaiah Thomas will be part of Boston's next great team.

Pelton: Fact. Unless the Celtics can sign an elite free agent like Kyle Lowry or Chris Paul or trade for someone like Russell Westbrook, they're unlikely to upgrade the position in the short term. I think it's more likely they take some playmaking duties off Thomas' plate by adding a ball-dominant wing or drafting a point guard who might eventually supplant him.

Engelmann: Fact, or at least I don't see why not. Thomas isn't an elite point guard due to his defensive shortcomings -- the Celtics' opponents scored 5.6 points more per 100 possessions with Thomas on the court, compared to him off. But, thanks to his offense, he's still good enough to be a solid contributor to an elite team.

Haberstroh: Fact. I could see him in a Manu Ginobili or Jamal Crawford role as the secondary playmaker on a contender. The Celtics can win 50 games with him as their top scorer, but he'll need another scoring mate for them to vault into the inner circle of championship contenders.

Forsberg: Fact. Maybe it'll become more apparent as the Celtics step into the national spotlight more this season but, even after Horford's arrival, Thomas is the face of the franchise. He's fully bought into the tradition and was Boston's primary offseason recruiter. If he maintains All-Star-caliber play, the Celtics will live with the difficulties his size presents defensively.

Elhassan: Fiction. I still feel that if Thomas is to be a part of any great team, that role would consist of him coming off the bench. That fact, his gaudy numbers and his bargain basement pricing will probably conspire to make him the centerpiece of a trade that eventually leads to Boston's next great team.


4. What trade would make the most sense for the Celtics?


Engelmann: With the Warriors so strong, the Celtics should probably wait another year before making big moves. On the other hand, if a star becomes disgruntled and demands a trade -- I think Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins are strong candidates here -- the Celtics might want to pull the trigger.

Elhassan: Ideally, a superlative perimeter player at the 2 or 3 position -- a bona fide 3-point threat who can also make plays for others. I'm not sure that deal exists, but that's what they need.

Forsberg: A logjam-loosening trade is needed sooner rather than later. Boston has 16 guaranteed contracts and would prefer not to eat money before trimming to the 15-man regular-season maximum. Further down the road, adding a bench scorer might aid a playoff push if Boston's bench struggles to generate consistent offense without Evan Turner's Swiss Army Knife talents this season.

Pelton: Until or unless Westbrook is available, trading for a wing who can effectively create shots for himself or others is the most realistic path to Boston improvement. If the Bulls decide to trade Jimmy Butler, he's an ideal fit. Beyond him, we're probably talking about Danilo Gallinari or possibly someone like Rudy Gay as something of a replacement for Turner on the second unit.

Haberstroh: Jimmy Butler for Avery Bradley, Amir Johnson, the 2017 Brooklyn Nets first-rounder (for which Boston has swap rights) and another first-rounder. If the Bulls' highly-flammable situation combusts in the early going, don't be surprised if the Celtics make a godfather offer for Butler. The Bulls' rebuild may be near.


5. Fact or Fiction: Boston is Cleveland's biggest threat in the East.


Elhassan: Fact. They check the most boxes in terms of being well coached with a creative playbook and a deep roster that plays physical defense. Additionally, they have the most assets at their disposal to make further improvements to the team. Having said all that, they still face enormous odds if they have aspirations of unseating the Cavs in the East.

Haberstroh: Fact. They're young. They're talented. And they're extremely well-coached. If the Cavs show their age and enter the postseason battered again like 2014-15, this series would resemble the 2009-10 Cavs-Celtics series, but with the roles reversed.

Forsberg: Fact. Sure, Toronto and Indiana should jockey for this spot, too, but Horford's arrival and the continued development of Boston's young core (players like Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder, Marcus Smart, and rookie Jaylen Brown) should push Boston to the next level. It's hard to call them the second-best team until they win a playoff series, but the potential is there to see Cleveland in the conference finals.

Engelmann: Fact. I even think the race for the East's No. 1 seed will be closer than people believe, due to the Cavs losing Matthew Dellavedova and the J.R. Smith situation being unresolved. Vegas also sees the Celtics as the second-best team, with almost twice the likelihood to win the East as the third-ranked team. Still, the Cavs' chances of repeating as East champs in the postseason is around 70 percent.

Pelton: Fact. The history of the East is we haven't been able to predict the top challenger to James' teams since the Indiana Pacers filled that role for a few seasons, but with Horford's addition, the Celtics are positioned best to emerge as that team. Still, actually beating a healthy Cleveland team seems like a long shot given the Cavaliers' ability to contain Thomas using their size on the perimeter.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 09:18:44 AM by Eddie20 »

Re: ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2016, 09:18:24 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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Six more opinions, whatever, yet they all got it wrong.  The biggest issue they have currently is not a scoring wing but a better big man off the bench.

Re: ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2016, 09:23:21 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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Six more opinions, whatever, yet they all got it wrong.  The biggest issue they have currently is not a scoring wing but a better big man off the bench.

That's debatable. I think we'll be okay with Horford, Johnson, Olynyk, and Crowder (as a small ball 4 at times), but having a scoring wing during crunch time is probably our biggest need. As good as Thomas is, his size makes it too easy to hard trap him and take him out. In fact, I read a stat that we had the worst shooting percentage in the league during the last 5 seconds of the shot clock. That speaks volumes on our need to add a scorer who can score effectively in crucial spots.

Re: ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2016, 09:23:52 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Six more opinions, whatever, yet they all got it wrong.  The biggest issue they have currently is not a scoring wing but a better big man off the bench.
The biggest issue is that Al Horford is their best rebounder, and he wasn't especially great last season either. If the regular big rotation is Horford, Johnson, Jerebko, Olynyk, and spot appearances from Crowder and Zeller, I'd expect us to get outrebounded every night.
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Re: ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2016, 09:32:19 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Six more opinions, whatever, yet they all got it wrong.  The biggest issue they have currently is not a scoring wing but a better big man off the bench.
I agree wing scorer is not an issue. Team needs another skilled big. I'd like to see a better starter next to Hordford and have AJ off the bench.

Re: ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2016, 09:41:08 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Horford's signing did almost nothing to address the 4 major areas of concern from last years team (in no particular order):

1. Shot blocking
2. Rebounding
3. #1 scoring option
4. consistent/efficient 3 point shooting

You see that is why I've pretty consistently said that while Horford is a significantly better player than Sullinger, I don't see his signing as adding much to win the win column of Boston.  Horford's strengths are already strengths on the team and his weaknesses unfortunately are weaknesses on the team. 
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Re: ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2016, 09:50:46 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Horford's signing did almost nothing to address the 4 major areas of concern from last years team (in no particular order):

1. Shot blocking
2. Rebounding
3. #1 scoring option
4. consistent/efficient 3 point shooting

You see that is why I've pretty consistently said that while Horford is a significantly better player than Sullinger, I don't see his signing as adding much to win the win column of Boston.  Horford's strengths are already strengths on the team and his weaknesses unfortunately are weaknesses on the team.
And that is why I had Hordford outside my top 5 FA grabs.

Re: ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2016, 09:56:34 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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Six more opinions, whatever, yet they all got it wrong.  The biggest issue they have currently is not a scoring wing but a better big man off the bench.
I agree wing scorer is not an issue. Team needs another skilled big. I'd like to see a better starter next to Hordford and have AJ off the bench.
Csfan1984, there is no need to repeatedly misspell Al Horford's last name.     :o

Re: ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2016, 11:31:42 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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I agree that Horford doesn't move the needle much.  Plus there is the age issue.  We'll be paying him 30mil when he is 34.  I think Cousins is by far the best acquisition we could reasonably make.  He'd create matchup issues for the Cavs and Warriors.  Hopefully being on a winning team would temper his negative aspects. 

The Pelton comment about the offensive rating being 92 when Thomas and Turner weren't on the court is concerning.  Small sample size but that is Sixers bad.  Smart and Rozier are going to have to improve their playmaking on the 2nd unit or this season will be a disappointment. 

Re: ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2016, 11:37:53 AM »

Offline alldaboston

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Quote
Amin Elhassan: I've heard from people who are feeling like there's a little bit too much . . . admiration for Brad Stevens that is a little unfounded. I like him, I think he is one of the best young coaches we have in the league, but this is an opinion that is not shared league wide, let me just say that right now.

Quote
Haberstroh: Jimmy Butler for Avery Bradley, Amir Johnson, the 2017 Brooklyn Nets first-rounder (for which Boston has swap rights) and another first-rounder. If the Bulls' highly-flammable situation combusts in the early going, don't be surprised if the Celtics make a godfather offer for Butler. The Bulls' rebuild may be near.

I didn't like either of these two statements.

Elhassan definitely doesn't know what he's talking about. Everyone has complimented Brad. There's no one who has said he isn't among the brightest young coaches in the league. You hear it from opposing players, coaches, GMs, LeBron said it.

The trade is a massive overpay. I would never do that.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

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Re: ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2016, 12:15:06 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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I agree that Horford doesn't move the needle much.  Plus there is the age issue.  We'll be paying him 30mil when he is 34.  I think Cousins is by far the best acquisition we could reasonably make.  He'd create matchup issues for the Cavs and Warriors.  Hopefully being on a winning team would temper his negative aspects. 

The Pelton comment about the offensive rating being 92 when Thomas and Turner weren't on the court is concerning.  Small sample size but that is Sixers bad.  Smart and Rozier are going to have to improve their playmaking on the 2nd unit or this season will be a disappointment.

How many of those minutes were garbage time with a lineup like Rozier/Hunter/Young/Mickey/Zeller or something similar? A sample size that small is very hard to judge from
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Re: ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2016, 12:27:58 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Horford's signing did almost nothing to address the 4 major areas of concern from last years team (in no particular order):

1. Shot blocking
2. Rebounding
3. #1 scoring option
4. consistent/efficient 3 point shooting

You see that is why I've pretty consistently said that while Horford is a significantly better player than Sullinger, I don't see his signing as adding much to win the win column of Boston.  Horford's strengths are already strengths on the team and his weaknesses unfortunately are weaknesses on the team.

A lack of shot-blocking is not a problem for this team (or any other team).  The problem in previous years (especially pre-Amir) has been a lack of defense inside, and not having many blocked shots is just a symptom of that.  We're still not gonna have many blocked shots, but Horford and Amir are very good defensive bigs. Horford won't block many shots, but that doesn't mean we won't fill the huge hole we had inside defensively. The team's much better off with a solid, but not shot-blocking, defensive big inside than a so-so defender that overcommits to pick up a couple of blocks every game (Like Brook Lopez and his 9th place 1.7 blocks per game but horrible interior defense)

And that's without mentioning that Horford blocked 1.5 shots per game last year, good for 18th in the NBA

Those other three issues (especially rebounding) I'd have to agree with, though (although I do think having a legit #2 like Horford will help take some pressure off IT and make us much harder for teams to clamp down on
I'm bitter.

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Re: ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2016, 12:44:16 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Six more opinions, whatever, yet they all got it wrong.  The biggest issue they have currently is not a scoring wing but a better big man off the bench.
I agree wing scorer is not an issue. Team needs another skilled big. I'd like to see a better starter next to Hordford and have AJ off the bench.
Csfan1984, there is no need to repeatedly misspell Al Horford's last name.     :o
Hordeford better?

Re: ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2016, 01:11:58 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Engelmann: With the Warriors so strong, the Celtics should probably wait another year before making big moves. On the other hand, if a star becomes disgruntled and demands a trade -- I think Anthony Davis and DeMarcus Cousins are strong candidates here -- the Celtics might want to pull the trigger.


Okay, Anthony Davis is not going to be available at all.

BUT... DeMarcus Cousins I think is the most realistic trade target at the trade deadline. Unless the Kings are miraculously a top-5 team in the West this season, the Kings will probably deal him. His value will be much higher if they deal him with 1.5 years left on his contract than if he's just a rental in the next offseason.

Also, I think adding Cousins would create a lot of mismatches against teams like Cleveland and Golden State that Boston can take advantage of. Maybe he doesn't push us over the Cavaliers in a playoff series but there is definitely a much better chance of it happening. And a Horford/Cousins front court would be DEADLY.

What do you guys think? If he's available and a deal is something like (or close to) 2017 Nets Pick, Bradley/Smart, another first rounder, Amir Johnson, and a young player not named Rozier or Brown, would you pull the trigger at the deadline?
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Re: ESPN Celtics Roundtable
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2016, 01:12:40 PM »

Offline clevelandceltic

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I agree with much of what the writers said. It doesn't make me any less excited about this year. With that being said I think the most important player on this team is Jaylen Brown. I know what Im going to get from the rest of the team minus Smart whom I also feel is very important. I think Brown holds this title because minus a major trade for a wing player (I don't think you can be a title team with AB and Crowder next to each other starting) I think he is your best chance to develop into the scorer that they need.

It wont happen this year but that's the biggest issue in my mind.