Author Topic: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans  (Read 6189 times)

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Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2016, 03:26:07 PM »

Offline MBunge

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Betrayed? We had to have to wanted him back in order for it to become betrayal.

THIS^^^^^^

well, we would have wanted him back if he was in shape and hadnt "betrayed " us, to use the same word rollie is using.


I find this moralizing both not very analytically useful, but also interesting.

A basketball decision was made during Sully's restricted free agency that the team was essentially ready to let him go. This happens all of the time in team sports. If the team had bet on a player, developing a better 3 point shot, or gaining a better handle, or being more consistent defender, and then lost that bet, would that amount to "betrayal" by the player upon whom the team bet? The player who failed to develop his shot, gain a handle, or become a better defender? Of course not.

So how is this different? Because it was about his weight? That those who are unable to control their weight have a moral failing and are therefore "betrayers"? Unlike those who fail in other ways?  I think this is facile, but speaks to how we view body shape or fitness uniquely as a moral attribute, different in kind from the ability to develop skill as a shooter, defender etc...

Science has proven that people can control their weight.  Yes, there is a tiny percentage who have some kind of medical issue but the overwhelming number of fat people are fat because they eat too much, eat the wrong kind of food and don't exercise.  All three of those things are the result of human decisions.

Now, changing bad food and exercise habits can be very, very hard.  But unlike most, Sully has had virtually unlimited access to the best dieticians, physical trainers and doctors in the world.  And he's had literally 10s of millions of dollars hanging on whether or not he loses weight.

Mike

Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2016, 03:33:41 PM »

Offline Snakehead

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He betrayed his own career and that's it.  I'm glad to be done watching him.
"I really don't want people to understand me." - Jordan Crawford

Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2016, 04:28:16 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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My impression is getting rid of him was more a personal thing than his performance on the court. His stats last year were better than Johnson, Olynyk or Zeller. Toronto scooped him up quickly, and made him their starting 4 at $6mil. That's $2mil cheaper than Zeller, who isn't close to Sully in his better days.  We'll see what he does there.

Stevens and Ainge just didn't want him. Maybe they just like a more disciplined player.

Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2016, 06:19:18 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

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He didn't betray me but I will say that I wasn't putting anymore hope into him getting better, he was solid already but he wasted (for now anyway) being a much better player. I don't know if Lucus would have told what Sully said if he hadn't moved on, but if he had I would have felt some type of way about Sully playing ahead of guys who aren't much worse but who actually work for it. I feel bad for all the less talented players who work their butts off and never get a chance like Sully. Dude isn't greatful for his gift. We can all blame it on an eating disorder but the dude told Lucus he couldn't do another offseason of hard work again, that's more than eating, that's being lazy and comfortable with just getting by. Guess you can't blame him really, he's rich off doing just enough to get by.  :P
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Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2016, 06:55:43 PM »

Offline The Oracle

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My impression is getting rid of him was more a personal thing than his performance on the court. His stats last year were better than Johnson, Olynyk or Zeller. Toronto scooped him up quickly, and made him their starting 4 at $6mil. That's $2mil cheaper than Zeller, who isn't close to Sully in his better days.  We'll see what he does there.

Stevens and Ainge just didn't want him. Maybe they just like a more disciplined player.
If Toronto intends to start Sully at PF then they are in for a rude awakening.  Sully cannot in any way defend the PF position in today's NBA.  Their spacing will also be terrible with Valanciunas/Sully, teams will just pack the paint and dare them to shoot.  The Celtics were clearly showcasing Sully last year and it brought them nothing.

Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2016, 07:44:26 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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My impression is getting rid of him was more a personal thing than his performance on the court. His stats last year were better than Johnson, Olynyk or Zeller. Toronto scooped him up quickly, and made him their starting 4 at $6mil. That's $2mil cheaper than Zeller, who isn't close to Sully in his better days.  We'll see what he does there.

Stevens and Ainge just didn't want him. Maybe they just like a more disciplined player.
If Toronto intends to start Sully at PF then they are in for a rude awakening.  Sully cannot in any way defend the PF position in today's NBA.  Their spacing will also be terrible with Valanciunas/Sully, teams will just pack the paint and dare them to shoot.  The Celtics were clearly showcasing Sully last year and it brought them nothing.

well, hes better than scola or patterson, i wouldnt say itll be that bad.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2016, 08:46:23 PM »

Offline incoherent

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Guys....  why do I get the feeling, despite logic.. that Sully is going to have himself a good year, and be in shape.


Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2016, 10:40:05 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Guys....  why do I get the feeling, despite logic.. that Sully is going to have himself a good year, and be in shape.

I will take that bet.

Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2016, 10:44:51 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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Guys....  why do I get the feeling, despite logic.. that Sully is going to have himself a good year, and be in shape.

You're not alone. I feel that way too.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2016, 12:49:44 AM »

Offline dannyboy35

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The thing is, even if Sully is in shape for one year( his improvement in the summer was overblown. He still should have lost a lot more before the beginning of the season) guys like him will let the team down the following year. He insults his teammates who worked hard to be in peak condition. I was disgusted all year that he played over Olynyk or really anybody else. I'm glad to finally be rid of him.
I'll take a much less talented player as a teammate if he busts his tail. Fat players make me sick.

Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2016, 02:52:09 AM »

Offline CelticPride2016

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I think in a general sense Sully did betray the Celtics. He was here four years, didn't seem to improve and was incapable (food disorder) or stubborn (arrogant) about getting into shape.

A little bit of this is the Celtics' fault. They were short on centers and told him he could expect minutes at the five spot.

If I am ever wrong, it is not on purpose. I like to go by memory and not fact check it every time.

Sully's first year was the last year of the slow Big Three era. His weight wasn't a problem so much when Doc, KG and Paul were playing old man basketball.

So here comes Brad Stevens who spoke of wanting to run the ball more or something about motion and passing, like the Spurs?

Something about motion offense.

Anyway, I thought Rondo was making a good effort to try the new system. I could see the kind of philosophy Stevens had by watching Rajon's attempt to do what he wanted.

Then came Rondo's matador defense and a Brink's truck on its way. He was traded and that was the big change I think getting Jae and then Isaiah later on.

Sully no longer fit in. I would see someone make a great defensive play only to watch slow Sully have no chance of finishing off a team steal.

Sully couldn't block shots. Olynyk was new to the center position and maybe that too set fate for Sully's departure.

Sullinger betrayed himself more than us or the team, but I think there is some truth to what Rollie says.

Sometimes people get divorced. Sometimes we lose contact with certain friends.

Sully as constituted is one of the last players I was worried about losing. He is an overweight power forward who can use his bulk to push the Dwight Howards out of the paint.

Sully is what he is unless he tackles his weight problem. He is basically a Big Baby Davis, very similar with a few differences.

Speaking of Big Baby, I like this article from April.

http://gioandjones.radio.cbssports.com/2016/04/25/glen-davis-explains-why-he-didnt-play-this-season/

He was at 335 pounds and it says his playing weight is 315.  ??? Someone should send the link to Sully and tell him it's now or never to get his act together or Big Baby is his future.

I agree with Shak Not Shaq that maybe Sullinger is living the good life and couldn't care less. Perhaps we care more about Sully's NBA career than he does.

It reminds me of some things I saw mentioned on James Young. I am not sure, but he seems to be more into the NBA lifestyle than working hard to make it. Or James Young is simply in over his head.

Sullinger made it. He can probably stay in the league a long time as long as there are teams who don't mind playing slow. It doesn't mean he will play a lot or end up any better than Glen Davis.

Those two guys are what Rollie was talking about with skilled bulk. Yabusele might show the third Danny attempt as the charm. He doesn't seem to have any food issues. Pierce had food issues. He is the role model for NBA players to overcome it.

They have orientations now for rookies, I think, where they warn them of the money and how if they are not careful, they could throw it all away. Maybe they should spend a little time on food disorders also.

I will not feel betrayed if Sully turns it around. I will be happy for him that he finally figured it out. I'd be more afraid of losing an Olynyk, Smart, Bradley or Brown and having it backfire than Sullinger. He's good, but not great. I don't think he can ever be great. I would put Sully at the level of Evan Turner with Turner the better player because he is in good shape.

This isn't golf. You can't weigh 300 pounds and walk from hole to hole. Basketball is a fast game.

Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2016, 03:30:32 AM »

Offline rollie mass

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thanks for that post
,i use the phrase" talk positive think cynical"
i had just been reading some toronto press and a positive article came up on sully and pushed my buttons ,i then went on to read what john lucas wrote about sully in july
BUT all day i felt off sort of guilty and tried to write an apology to this board for what i now call an  inappropriate post from me
i feel sully actions fit the definition but my reaction was wrong-
i know about addictions, so i should know better and have no excuses

reflecting on this,the loss of being able to pursue my basketball career due to knee injury and how painful that was and still is and to watch sully throw his away-i invested emotionally last summer and really cheered sully on
-i wanted him to succeed,- so good luck sully
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 05:13:45 AM by rollie mass »

Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2016, 08:14:40 AM »

Online Moranis

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The betrayal seems to be letting your starting PF go to a divisional team because you didn't want to pay him well below market value for 1 year.
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Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2016, 08:50:32 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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The betrayal seems to be letting your starting PF go to a divisional team because you didn't want to pay him well below market value for 1 year.

And yet that PF declined in March, around 3/21,

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/6624/jared-sullinger

was useless in the playoffs,

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2016/07/celtics_renounce_qualifying_offer_on_jared_sullinger

 and ballooned up and gained weight down the strength again.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2016/07/celtics_renounce_qualifying_offer_on_jared_sullinger

What is the market value of a guy who does not stay in shape or can't last through a season?   

I am sure Jared like many here, thought he was worth more.   But the market quite frankly did not work out that way for him.   A player gets what the market thinks he is worth.   Some team could have tossed big bucks and we would not have matched and yet no one took the plunge.   That ought to tell you something about his market value.

Re: did sully betray ainge,brad,teammates and fans
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2016, 09:02:47 AM »

Online Moranis

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The betrayal seems to be letting your starting PF go to a divisional team because you didn't want to pay him well below market value for 1 year.

And yet that PF declined in March, around 3/21,

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/6624/jared-sullinger

was useless in the playoffs,

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2016/07/celtics_renounce_qualifying_offer_on_jared_sullinger

 and ballooned up and gained weight down the strength again.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2016/07/celtics_renounce_qualifying_offer_on_jared_sullinger

What is the market value of a guy who does not stay in shape or can't last through a season?   

I am sure Jared like many here, thought he was worth more.   But the market quite frankly did not work out that way for him.   A player gets what the market thinks he is worth.   Some team could have tossed big bucks and we would not have matched and yet no one took the plunge.   That ought to tell you something about his market value.
not when the team keeps him restricted until pretty much all the other teams already have made their moves. 
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