anybody else glad we have jaylen over simmons

[rollie mass]

moranus seems to think this was an all star bad post-believe me i have read some poor posts
 simmons lazy and has no will to play good defense,busted jumper,avoids contact and doesn't like rebounding in a crowd-
jaylen did not squander his freshman year but used it to build advisors and take post graduate courses
imagine a number one pick that can't take a jumper,ball dominant ,doesn't stretch the floor,avoids contact,average wingspan and standing reach,doesn't rebound in a crowd ,will not shoot in 4th quarter,doesn't close out-and has a attitude red flag
jaylen last three games after coming back from knee injury were all above 20-25pts and avg  6 boards and 2.8 steals along with 16ppg
-rozier had almost as many rebounds per game and assists and outscored the number one pick with 19ppg to simmons 10ppg
jaylens high school team beat simmons montrverde team with all 5 stars and jaylen won mvp

There is so much nonsense in this post it is hard to take anything you say seriously.  I mean a guy that averages almost 12 rebounds and shoots 9 foul shots a game avoids contact and can't rebound in traffic.  A guy that shoots 56% from the field and 67% from the line, can't make shots.  The same guy that scores 1.65 pps and dishes out almost 5 assists a game, is ball dominant. 

There isn't a single relevant statistically category in which Jaylen Brown outperformed Ben Simmons in college and that includes TOV% and USG%.  In fact, Brown's usage was almost 5% higher than Simmons.  His turnover % was higher, his assist % and RB% were just over half of Simmons, Brown was a lesser shooter from every single spot on the floor and scored at a much lower rate of efficiency.

This is a ridiculous thread because it isn't supported by any shred of actual evidence based on actual gameplay.  Given one was the consensus #1 pick and that was the guy in which the stats are in favor of, this is unattainable position and really does make Celtics fans look crazy.  There is nothing that would lead any rationale person to want Jaylen Brown over Ben Simmons.  Nothing at all.   

well i spent some time reading to back stop, what i put in print, just go to draft express weakness
video-
-i am defense oriented going way back to russell era and was coached defense by rollie massimino-80% of practice was defense and drills -pressure man to man help d for 40 minutes relentless ball pressure-we played in semi finals tech tourney the undefeated all black jamaica plain-what size and athletes but they didn't know what hit them-killilea and massimino were the two really good coaches
-marcus,avery,crowder,jerebko and now rozier-love defence-those 4 steals in like a row to win a game was like heaven
-i like guys like bobby portis,myles turner,stanley johnson,aaron gordon-wil see soon enough how ihe teams defesively with okafor ,how he gets over top of screens-how he reacts to losing in philly

[SHAQATTACK]

Simmons seems a lock to be a top tier NBA talent . 

[KG Living Legend]

 A top talent, but we need to see if he has the drive to be great.

[mctyson]

This is challenging for the most ridiculous topic ever posted on Celticsblog.

There are plenty of #1 picks who have worse careers than #3 picks.  It might not be ridiculous at all.


Having said that, I would have rather had Simmons at #1, because there is no doubt we could have traded him for an All-NBA player.

[celticsclay]

Topics like this are why other fanbases and nba fans in general call us delusional. There's a reason Simmons was the #1 pick. True, his attitude and work ethic might not  be great, but at the end of the day, talent wins out. And he's got plenty of it, and plenty of high end potential too.

this explains why simmons was the #1 pick. but it also seems to assume that being the #1 is proof of these assumptions. history speaks otherwise.

most #1s do very well, but not all. and a not insignificant number of #1s turn out to NOT be the best from the draft after a few years.

so, it is too early to decide this debate.

EDIT to add a few examples of #1 =/= best of the draft.

Noel (#6) > Bennett (#1)
Cousins (#5) > Wall (#1), debatable, but yes for some minds
Curry (#7) > Griffin (#1)
Westbrook (#4) > Rose, (#1), debatable again, but arguments can be made
Durant (#2) > Oden (#1)
Aldridge (#2) > Bargnani (#1)
Paul (#4) > Bogut (#1)
Pau Gasol (#3) > Kwame Brown (#1)

I had a thread on here and basically since Shaq in 92 the drafts where there was a consensus #1 pick that player was the best player taken in the draft except for Kobe over Iverson, Westbrook over Rose, and Durant over Oden (though Rose and Oden's injuries will always be a whatif and make you wonder as Rose was a league MVP and Oden showed immense potential prior to the injuries).  And even in those years, injuries aside, the player taken #1 was no worse than the 2nd best player in the draft.  In the drafts where there wasn't a consensus #1, the player taken #1 was almost always not even in the top 5 best players taken in the draft. 

Simmons was the consensus #1 player.  Barring injury that means he will almost certainly be no worse than the 2nd best player in the draft and will most likely be the best player taken in the draft.  This makes perfect sense, when all the scouts agree on a player, that player is going to be pretty darn good (I mean Iverson and Rose were league MVP's for crying out loud, they just had a guy that was better than them in their draft). 

What the research also showed was that all #1 picks aren't equal.  I mean everyone knows this, but for every Lebron James there is a Kenyon Martin.  Both consensus #1 picks and both the best player from their draft, but a very significant difference in their overall career trajectory.  So using historical metrics, Simmons, barring injury, will very likely be the best player in his draft, how good he ultimately comes is certainly unknown though.

Your whole premise here is flawed. There is no way that Simmons was a consensus number 1 pick. While some of these may be teams attempting spin, these are pretty mainstream news and sports sites debating their merits as the top pick.  I highly doubt we saw dwayne wade or lebron debates at this kind of level (if at all). Why are we pretending simmons was such a consensus pick? Just to make a point of some sort? I mean the last link is the 76ers team blog where even their fans and writers debated it. That is not what happens when something is "consensus"

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-draft-2016-how-ben-simmons-and-brandon-ingram-compare-head-to-head/
https://www.sny.tv/college-recruiting/news/brandon-ingram-supplants-ben-simmons-as-no-1-pick-on-draft-express/167477258
http://www.si.com/nba/2016/03/21/nba-draft-ben-simmons-brandon-ingram-ncaa-tournament-lsu-duke
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2016/06/23/76ers-are-taking-a-bigger-risk-by-drafting-ben-simmons-over-brandon-ingram/
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2016/6/17/11964420/la-lakers-report-prefer-brandon-ingram-over-ben-simmons
http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/5/19/11712630/roundtable-ben-simmons-brandon-ingram-sixers-draft-bryan-colangelo

so taking that comment back?

[Tr1boy]

Simmons seems a lock to be a top tier NBA talent .

The lock can be picked

He lacks that extra gear from what I have seen

Could be uncommitted to watch extra film, study plays/opponents etc (poor student)

[CoachBo]

Topics like this are why other fanbases and nba fans in general call us delusional. There's a reason Simmons was the #1 pick. True, his attitude and work ethic might not  be great, but at the end of the day, talent wins out. And he's got plenty of it, and plenty of high end potential too.

Having talent is one thing, using talent for winning is another.
From 1 year college and SL (I know we shouldn't  based jugement one just that but it's all we have) I see talent but I also see a long way to fulfill it...
Then from the OP point  I also see caracter coming into play... do you want a talented primadona headcase wearing green or a slightly less talent hardworking stable guy..?

and what did Brown do that makes you think he is any different?  I mean unless the 1 of 6, 4 point, 7 turnover, 5 foul performance in the NCAA tournament stands out to you while playing on a team with another high level NBA prospect. 

That is where this thread loses all sense of reality.  Even if Simmons has a terrible work ethic, even if he doesn't have much experience to go from, etc.  Brown has no experience either and performed worse than Simmons in the limited experience they both have.  Brown may have a better work ethic or he may not, but statistically Simmons significantly out performed Brown and skill set and talent right now are clearly in Simmons favor.

All of this makes it easy to see why I seriously said this is challenging for the most ridiculous post ever on CelticsBlog.  It really is ridiculous on so many levels.

This used to be a site for serious basketball discussion.

This thread is a stake in the heart of serious basketball discussion.

[RAAAAAAAANDY]

Simmons seems a lock to be a top tier NBA talent .

The lock can be picked

He lacks that extra gear from what I have seen

Could be uncommitted to watch extra film, study plays/opponents etc (poor student)

...

Jaylen Brown is essentially not good at anything except for running fast and jumping.

He can't dribble, shoot, pass or play defense.

But yes, a guy with BBIQ off the charts is the one everybody should worry about in terms of improving.

[KG Living Legend]

Simmons seems a lock to be a top tier NBA talent .

The lock can be picked

He lacks that extra gear from what I have seen

Could be uncommitted to watch extra film, study plays/opponents etc (poor student)

...

Jaylen Brown is essentially not good at anything except for running fast and jumping.

He can't dribble, shoot, pass or play defense.

But yes, a guy with BBIQ off the charts is the one everybody should worry about in terms of improving.

 Holy moly, tell us how you really feel about Brown. What are your expectations of Brown then this year and career wise.

 He's super raw but your being harsh with your analysis. He's got better handles at least in the half court sets than people think.

 To the point where I think that could be an incredible strength for him. Pierce was clever but I predict Jaylen's handles to be better than Pierce's handles eventually.

 For some reason I have hope for Brown's shot more than Smart or Rozier for example. It's hard to explain but I think he actually has a chance to be a shooter.

 I'll be the first to point out his assistant to turnover ratio was horrible last year. He's Upside is tremendous though.

[moiso]

Simmons seems a lock to be a top tier NBA talent .

The lock can be picked

He lacks that extra gear from what I have seen

Could be uncommitted to watch extra film, study plays/opponents etc (poor student)

He could lack the extra gear but he's a very smart player already so I pretty much think its kind of irrelevant what type of student Simmons will be.  He's still going to be smarter basketball wise than most NBA players.

[IDreamCeltics]

moranus seems to think this was an all star bad post-believe me i have read some poor posts
 simmons lazy and has no will to play good defense,busted jumper,avoids contact and doesn't like rebounding in a crowd-
jaylen did not squander his freshman year but used it to build advisors and take post graduate courses
imagine a number one pick that can't take a jumper,ball dominant ,doesn't stretch the floor,avoids contact,average wingspan and standing reach,doesn't rebound in a crowd ,will not shoot in 4th quarter,doesn't close out-and has a attitude red flag
jaylen last three games after coming back from knee injury were all above 20-25pts and avg  6 boards and 2.8 steals along with 16ppg
-rozier had almost as many rebounds per game and assists and outscored the number one pick with 19ppg to simmons 10ppg
jaylens high school team beat simmons montrverde team with all 5 stars and jaylen won mvp

There is so much nonsense in this post it is hard to take anything you say seriously.  I mean a guy that averages almost 12 rebounds and shoots 9 foul shots a game avoids contact and can't rebound in traffic.  A guy that shoots 56% from the field and 67% from the line, can't make shots.  The same guy that scores 1.65 pps and dishes out almost 5 assists a game, is ball dominant. 

There isn't a single relevant statistically category in which Jaylen Brown outperformed Ben Simmons in college and that includes TOV% and USG%.  In fact, Brown's usage was almost 5% higher than Simmons.  His turnover % was higher, his assist % and RB% were just over half of Simmons, Brown was a lesser shooter from every single spot on the floor and scored at a much lower rate of efficiency.

This is a ridiculous thread because it isn't supported by any shred of actual evidence based on actual gameplay.  Given one was the consensus #1 pick and that was the guy in which the stats are in favor of, this is unattainable position and really does make Celtics fans look crazy.  There is nothing that would lead any rationale person to want Jaylen Brown over Ben Simmons.  Nothing at all.   

So Simmons shot 0.1 threes per game in college.  It's safe to say Jaylen Brown is a better three point shooter.

BUT... Just so nobody can say I didn't add anything of substance to this conversation here is a link to an article with Jaylen's college shot chart in it http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/06/2016-nba-draft-worst-picks-jaylen-brown-boston-celtics and here's a link comparing Brandon Ingram's shot chart to Ben Simmon's college shot chart https://twitter.com/DraftExpress/status/745739890059509761.

The thing that jumps out at you about Jaylen looking at his shot chart is that he hits the three at above 40% from the top of the three point line and hit's it at 36% from the left corner.  This also held true in Summer league.  So there are definitely some spots on the floor that he's a better shooter than Simmons.

[mr. dee]

It's hard to judge at this point. I'll wait maybe 3-5 years to see who have better career.

For all we know, Simmons could be the next Lebron or Griffin. But he could also become the next Michael Beasley and OJ Mayo.

Jaylen's floor is Gerald Green and Kedrick Brown. But he could also be the next T-Mac or Kobe.

[Eja117]

I'm not happy we lost the lottery

[Boris Badenov]

Simmons seems a lock to be a top tier NBA talent .

The lock can be picked

He lacks that extra gear from what I have seen

Could be uncommitted to watch extra film, study plays/opponents etc (poor student)

Have you started taking player analysis tips from Skip Bayless?

[Moranis]

Topics like this are why other fanbases and nba fans in general call us delusional. There's a reason Simmons was the #1 pick. True, his attitude and work ethic might not  be great, but at the end of the day, talent wins out. And he's got plenty of it, and plenty of high end potential too.

this explains why simmons was the #1 pick. but it also seems to assume that being the #1 is proof of these assumptions. history speaks otherwise.

most #1s do very well, but not all. and a not insignificant number of #1s turn out to NOT be the best from the draft after a few years.

so, it is too early to decide this debate.

EDIT to add a few examples of #1 =/= best of the draft.

Noel (#6) > Bennett (#1)
Cousins (#5) > Wall (#1), debatable, but yes for some minds
Curry (#7) > Griffin (#1)
Westbrook (#4) > Rose, (#1), debatable again, but arguments can be made
Durant (#2) > Oden (#1)
Aldridge (#2) > Bargnani (#1)
Paul (#4) > Bogut (#1)
Pau Gasol (#3) > Kwame Brown (#1)

I had a thread on here and basically since Shaq in 92 the drafts where there was a consensus #1 pick that player was the best player taken in the draft except for Kobe over Iverson, Westbrook over Rose, and Durant over Oden (though Rose and Oden's injuries will always be a whatif and make you wonder as Rose was a league MVP and Oden showed immense potential prior to the injuries).  And even in those years, injuries aside, the player taken #1 was no worse than the 2nd best player in the draft.  In the drafts where there wasn't a consensus #1, the player taken #1 was almost always not even in the top 5 best players taken in the draft. 

Simmons was the consensus #1 player.  Barring injury that means he will almost certainly be no worse than the 2nd best player in the draft and will most likely be the best player taken in the draft.  This makes perfect sense, when all the scouts agree on a player, that player is going to be pretty darn good (I mean Iverson and Rose were league MVP's for crying out loud, they just had a guy that was better than them in their draft). 

What the research also showed was that all #1 picks aren't equal.  I mean everyone knows this, but for every Lebron James there is a Kenyon Martin.  Both consensus #1 picks and both the best player from their draft, but a very significant difference in their overall career trajectory.  So using historical metrics, Simmons, barring injury, will very likely be the best player in his draft, how good he ultimately comes is certainly unknown though.

Your whole premise here is flawed. There is no way that Simmons was a consensus number 1 pick. While some of these may be teams attempting spin, these are pretty mainstream news and sports sites debating their merits as the top pick.  I highly doubt we saw dwayne wade or lebron debates at this kind of level (if at all). Why are we pretending simmons was such a consensus pick? Just to make a point of some sort? I mean the last link is the 76ers team blog where even their fans and writers debated it. That is not what happens when something is "consensus"

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-draft-2016-how-ben-simmons-and-brandon-ingram-compare-head-to-head/
https://www.sny.tv/college-recruiting/news/brandon-ingram-supplants-ben-simmons-as-no-1-pick-on-draft-express/167477258
http://www.si.com/nba/2016/03/21/nba-draft-ben-simmons-brandon-ingram-ncaa-tournament-lsu-duke
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2016/06/23/76ers-are-taking-a-bigger-risk-by-drafting-ben-simmons-over-brandon-ingram/
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2016/6/17/11964420/la-lakers-report-prefer-brandon-ingram-over-ben-simmons
http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/5/19/11712630/roundtable-ben-simmons-brandon-ingram-sixers-draft-bryan-colangelo

so taking that comment back?

Did you even read those articles.  CBS went with Simmons.  The 7 SI writers all chose Simmons.  The post writer says Ingram is the safer pick, but that Simmons has more upside and will be the pick.  The other three are blogs that have a need to attract readers so taking the contrary approach makes sound financial sense.  And it just seems odd you would pick out that statement and ignore everything else in my post which was the real point.

Wade was the 5th pick in his draft.  Seems like an odd choice to bring up especially when Darko Milicic was the 2nd pick in that same draft.  There are almost always "debates" about #1 picks on sports web-sites because they need to do something to stand apart from everyone else and it is boring to say X Player is going #1.  They want to make it seem like there is a real possibility X Player is not going #1.  Then you start seeing teams that are picking 2 or 3 leaking it that they really prefer Y Player to X Player because they want to sell their future pick to their fan base.

Simmons was going to go #1 no matter the team that had the #1 pick.  He has the most upside and most complete all around game.  Even if a GM deep down liked Ingram more, they still likely would have selected Simmons because that is the pick that doesn't get you fired if it doesn't work out.