Poll

Do we pay IT the $20+million per year he'll probably command in free agency?

Yes, he's earned it.
22 (35.5%)
No, some team will over pay for him even if he'll be 29 years old
9 (14.5%)
I'd give him something like 4 years x $15 million but $20x4 years is too much
13 (21%)
Trade him and get something for him. If so, probably has to be this season or next offseason?
18 (29%)

Total Members Voted: 62

Author Topic: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?  (Read 8155 times)

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Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2016, 06:48:01 PM »

Offline mctyson

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Option C
Trade him and get something back for him. I love Thomas, but paying him big money to an undersized player for years 29-34 of his career is a bad proposition.

Disagree.  It all depends on what the team is doing.  If they are a #2 seed in the East, you do not trade him.  Let him ride out the contract and see what the bids are. 

Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2016, 06:51:21 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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I say wait and see. He might be traded for Westbrook for all we know.

Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2016, 07:10:57 PM »

Offline Big333223

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It would be stupid to trade him now because you're afraid of what he might cost in 2 years. We can start worrying about this a year from now but it won't even be an issue until we know how well the 2017-18 team plays and we won't know that until that season is underway.

In the meantime, let's hope he plays so well we want to pay him.
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Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2016, 05:52:42 AM »

Offline greece66

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Far too early to say. Who knows what happens until then.

Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2016, 07:49:26 AM »

Offline CFAN38

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Time will help shed light on this situation. If the team performs well this season with IT at the lead and adds the right fitting player then I think DA pays the man.


This may prove to be DA's toughest roster situation in his tenure with the Cs. Given then he was originally cast as Smarts backup and ascended to the starting lineup I think its safe to say DA and BS originally viewed IT as a great backup to Smart. This hasn't played out as planned. I personally love IT's game but have to admit I really find it hard to believe a team can compete for a championship with a 5'8 starting PG. The defensive liability and the ability of other teams to game plan against him and physically overwhelm him seems like a major hurdle.

In the ideal roster situation I think the Cs would bring in via trade or FA a bigger play making wing to start at the SG (Hayward,Butler,Middleton), Smart improves as a play maker and starts at the point, and IT shifts to a 25+mpg 6th man role. This will likely never happen as I do not see IT taking that perceived demotion well.

Ultimately I think IT is signed for big money ona shorter term deal and if he is not willing to sign that type of deal he is moved next off-season. I doubt DA put himself in a position to be burnt.   
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Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2016, 08:16:12 AM »

Offline chambers

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Far too early to say. Who knows what happens until then.

I was thinking this, but then i asked myself when do we start to think about it? In one season he'll be expiring, just like DeMarcus Cousins will be and I'm wondering what happens in one year time if hes playing well, is injury free and will command a max salary from another team. What will Danny do?
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quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2016, 08:56:33 AM »

Offline greece66

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Far too early to say. Who knows what happens until then.

I was thinking this, but then i asked myself when do we start to think about it? In one season he'll be expiring, just like DeMarcus Cousins will be and I'm wondering what happens in one year time if hes playing well, is injury free and will command a max salary from another team. What will Danny do?

You are right. I am sure our FO is already considering their options. But to do that, not only should they examine in detail our cap space, contract situation etc but they also have access to information to which we do not.

As outsiders to this process, I doubt how well prepared we are to discuss this in detail.

Having said this, if I had to take a guess, I really doubt we offer IT the max. But this does not mean that letting him walk is the only alternative:  we might trade him, offer an extension, convince him to sign for less money etc

Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2016, 09:11:44 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I'm skeptical about paying him that much, or if his success will continue for the next two years. But we will see, if he continues his level of play he will get a contract around 20 million per year easily.

Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2016, 10:16:05 AM »

Offline bdm860

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First thing I think of is Steve Nash.  Mavs didn't want to pay him or give him long contract because he was about to be on the wrong side of 30, and didn't think his game would hold up down the line.  We all know how that turned out.  (I know, I know, they have totally different games and a small guy like Nash is still 6" taller than Isaiah).

And $20m under the new cap?  That's nothing especially when the max will be $38m (estimating a $109m cap in '19).  Evan Turner is making $18m per, Ryan Anderson is getting $20m per, Chandler Parsons is getting $24m per, Kent Bazemore is getting $18m per, Luol Deng is getting $18m per, Joakim Noah is getting $18m per, etc.  How many of those guys do you think will have even 1 year better than Isaiah has under his next contract?  Some of you want to pay him like he's Solomon Hill, Jeremy Lin, Tyler Johnson, or Austin Rivers.  Every contract can't be a team friendly bargain.

$20m per year is the equivalent of $10-11m per under the old $55m-$60m cap the NBA had for most of the last decade.  That's about what the C's were paying Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo as 3rd and 4th best players from '11-'13.

Obviously it depends on where the team is and if there's been any sign of decline in his game or a major injury, but if he plays at about the same level he has over the next 2 years, I would absolutely give him $20m per.  $20m+, depends on what the plus is, up to $22m-$23m per probably.  Generally I think 20% of the cap is fair money for players expected to be the 3rd or 4th best option on a good team.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 10:22:45 AM by bdm860 »

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Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2016, 11:08:49 AM »

Offline mef730

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We'll see how the rest of the team looks. I'm leaning "no," based on history, our roster and what the draft looks like.

If we're going to trade him, now is the time to do so, with two years left on his contract. Here's the problem: I just don't think that other teams would value him the same way that we do. On our team and in our offense, he's the best player and an all-star. But on most other teams, he's a sixth man. If we were to trade him now, the difference between what we would want and what we could get would be larger than it would be for most other players.

Mike

Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2016, 04:30:20 PM »

Offline greece66

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First thing I think of is Steve Nash.  Mavs didn't want to pay him or give him long contract because he was about to be on the wrong side of 30, and didn't think his game would hold up down the line.  We all know how that turned out.  (I know, I know, they have totally different games and a small guy like Nash is still 6" taller than Isaiah).

And $20m under the new cap?  That's nothing especially when the max will be $38m (estimating a $109m cap in '19).  Evan Turner is making $18m per, Ryan Anderson is getting $20m per, Chandler Parsons is getting $24m per, Kent Bazemore is getting $18m per, Luol Deng is getting $18m per, Joakim Noah is getting $18m per, etc.  How many of those guys do you think will have even 1 year better than Isaiah has under his next contract?  Some of you want to pay him like he's Solomon Hill, Jeremy Lin, Tyler Johnson, or Austin Rivers.  Every contract can't be a team friendly bargain.

$20m per year is the equivalent of $10-11m per under the old $55m-$60m cap the NBA had for most of the last decade.  That's about what the C's were paying Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo as 3rd and 4th best players from '11-'13.

Obviously it depends on where the team is and if there's been any sign of decline in his game or a major injury, but if he plays at about the same level he has over the next 2 years, I would absolutely give him $20m per.  $20m+, depends on what the plus is, up to $22m-$23m per probably.  Generally I think 20% of the cap is fair money for players expected to be the 3rd or 4th best option on a good team.

A good point I disregarded while writing my comment. I was thinking 20 mill in this year's terms. If the cap goes up so dramatically as bdm860 suggests, then sure, provided IT stays healthy and productive, offering him 20 mill is a reasonable option.

Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2016, 06:29:10 PM »

Offline saltlover

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I think a key thing missing in this discussion is a) how would you prefer the Celtics spend the money, and b) how much money would signing IT to a large contract actually take up?

Suppose that the Celtics are able to sign a max free agent this summer at the 7-9 years experience level.  Suppose we also get another top 3 pick from the Nets.  That max free agent will make about $30 million in 2018-2019.  The draft pick will make approximately what Jaylen Brown is scheduled to make.  Let's also assume Rozier gets to stick around, but for the time being forget about all of our other draft picks, be they stashed, on the roster, or in the future (like the 2018 Nets pick).  That would leave us with 6 players under contract:

Horford
Mystery max player
Crowder
Brown
Rozier
Nets 2017 pick.

Just those six players cost about $80 million.  Already you've run out of room for another max player.  You can pay a single guy a lot of money, but not the max.

But also, we've assumed that we let Olynyk walk next year, and we're also letting Smart walk in this scenario.  Keep one of them and you're over $90 million committed to 7 players -- now you've just got role player money left.  Keep both of them, and you're probably capped out.  And I didn't even mention Bradley, who would carry a cap hold of at least $13.2 million himself.  And again, there are probably some draftees, either currently on the roste or yet to be taken, who will carry additional cap space also.

So in this scenario, it really becomes a decision of going a good deal over the cap to retain IT, and maybe even touching the luxury tax, or letting him go.  You're not replacing him with a free agent.  He's just gone.  And this is where the "it's not our money" argument comes in.  Is it better to pay IT $20, even $25 million, or just fill the roster spot with a second round pick?

Alternatively, suppose we don't hit on a free agent next summer.  Now you probably can get a max free agent, if one will come.  And yet, in a world where we have cap space, IT would have a cap hold of $11.9 million.  The max salary will again be around $29 million.  If a max player could fit into the Celtics along with IT's cap hold, wouldn't you want to keep IT?  You're not going to get someone to replace him for $12 million.  Look at this year's salaries, factor in another $10+ million of the cap rising, and it's just not happening.  Again, if you're going over the cap, does it really matter if IT is paid $15 million or $25 million, if it isn't your money?

I think people have grown too accustomed to the Celtics having large amounts of cap room.  That's going to end soon, probably after next summer, maybe before then if a trade occurs.  Possibly 2018.  But it's ending, if for no other reason than some of the draft picks will have become long-term players to be kept, and accordingly their salaries will rise -- specifically Olynyk and Smart.  And if IT is being paid a ton in 2019 and 2020, when we aren't going to have cap room any way, what does it matter, if it's not our money?  Sure maybe the Celtics will decide it's not worth the luxury tax (although the higher the cap goes, the wider the gap between the two levels, so that might not be an actual comsideration).  But from an opportunity cost of cap room, it's unlikely IT getting paid big time in the future will have any real negative impact.  There is a narrow range of possibilities that makes IT's cap hold prohibitive for a max player in 2018, but narrow is the key word.  It's highly unlikely we're significantly under the cap in the years beyond 2018, regardless of IT, until either another rebuild occurs, or there's a significant change to the cap again. 

Remember, we were pretty much over the cap for the better part of two decades.  That's the norm, not these years in the recent past and near future.

Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2016, 08:46:09 PM »

Offline timpiker

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Walk or probably trade

Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2016, 11:29:41 AM »

Offline Big333223

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I'm not going too in-depth into the math but Amir, Jerebko, and Olynyk are all going to be up for raises after this season. If they bring back 1, 2, or all 3 of those guys plus whatever money they spend on outside free agents next summer, how much money will there be for free agents in 2018? That summer (2018), contracts are up, not just for IT, but also for Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart (and Zeller and Young but I doubt they'll still be on the team then).

Again, I'll leave the actual math to someone else (and please fact check this if you have the time), but it feels like they'd have to let an awful lot of people walk to have significant money for outisde free agents in 2018. If they don't have significant money for outside guys, what would be the argument for not resigning IT (aside from his play falling off a cliff)?
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Re: Do we pay Isaiah $20+million or let him walk in 2018?
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2016, 11:50:14 AM »

Offline incoherent

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100% walk or trade.  Not paying a below the rim wing 20mil plus.