Author Topic: Clutchest player ever?  (Read 14146 times)

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Clutchest player ever?
« on: July 12, 2016, 11:00:11 PM »

Offline Ogaju

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In another thread I posted that Kobe Bryant is the clutchest player ever, and another poster demurred. I thought it an interesting topic for its own thread.

I am not sure if anyone despises the Lakers and Kobe as much as I do, but now that he is retired can we continue to deny his greatness? Is he not arguably the most clutch player ever?

When Kobe Bryant was at the height of his game, and the ball was passed to him with the game on the line and the clock running down, how many of you could truly say your heart did not sink?

Re: Clutchest player ever?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2016, 11:09:42 PM »

Offline incoherent

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Bird is the most clutch.

In the words of Pat Riley... If he had to choose someone to make a shot to win a game, Jordan.  If he had to choose someone to make a shot to save his life, Bird.

Re: Clutchest player ever?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2016, 11:18:03 PM »

Offline fantankerous

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I don't know about most clutch.  Nor do I think the contemporary obsession with ranking is at all clarifying or healthy.  Nevertheless, Kobe is one of the greatest basketball players I've had the privilege of watching.

Re: Clutchest player ever?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2016, 11:18:06 PM »

Offline tankcity!

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Jordan is IMO.

Re: Clutchest player ever?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2016, 11:21:55 PM »

Online SparzWizard

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My clutchest player ever? Paul Pierce.  8)


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Re: Clutchest player ever?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2016, 11:25:26 PM »

Offline Pvictor11

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Terry Rozier, he won that SL game against the Spurs just a few days ago. How could you guys forget about him ?
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Re: Clutchest player ever?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2016, 02:19:06 AM »

Offline greece66

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This could be quantified by counting eFG% in the last 2 mins of close games. Some account of the quantity of shots, as well as for the fact that bigs usually have a higher eFG% anyway, should also be added.

You never know, but I have a strong feeling Jordan should lead in this category.

Re: Clutchest player ever?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2016, 02:22:56 AM »

Offline blink

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I know Bird was my favorite and pretty near the top of the clutch list, but I would have to give my vote to MJ, and I am not even that big of an MJ fan.

Re: Clutchest player ever?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2016, 02:36:31 AM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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In another thread I posted that Kobe Bryant is the clutchest player ever, and another poster demurred. I thought it an interesting topic for its own thread.

I am not sure if anyone despises the Lakers and Kobe as much as I do, but now that he is retired can we continue to deny his greatness? Is he not arguably the most clutch player ever?

When Kobe Bryant was at the height of his game, and the ball was passed to him with the game on the line and the clock running down, how many of you could truly say your heart did not sink?



 It's not Kobe. Someone run the numbers but I'm sure his shooting % at the end of games was not impressive.

Re: Clutchest player ever?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2016, 02:54:44 AM »

Offline mr. dee

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Robert Horry

Re: Clutchest player ever?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2016, 02:55:08 AM »

Offline LilRip

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FWIW, I think Pierce was more clutch than Kobe. If only we had Shaq instead of Antoine Walker.
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Re: Clutchest player ever?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2016, 03:06:31 AM »

Offline slightly biased bias fan

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There is a clutch player stat for the most clutch since 2000-2012 and Lebron is actually 'most clutch', I would say Bird too but I don't think they have that advanced statistics back then.

http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

Re: Clutchest player ever?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2016, 03:49:01 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I cannot declare Kobe the most clutch ever, as I've not seen enough of historical players to make that call.

What I can say is that while I've been a Celtics fan (which was basically since KG came here - as he was my favourite player) there is no opponent who has scared me more at the end of games then Kobe.

The big reason Kobe scared me so much was his offensive versatility. Kobe was one of those rare offensive players who could score from anywhere and everywhere. 

He could post, he could drive, he had an amazing midrange game, he could hit the three, he could score in transition and he could get to the line - where he shot a high percentage.  His jumper was especially scary because he could take the pull up, he could spot up, he could shoot off screens, he could hit turnarounds, he could hit fadeaways - there wasn't a single type of shot Kobe could not hit.

When Lebron has the ball, you can try to force him into taking a long jumper, and you improve your odds of him missing.  When Shaq had the ball, you could foul him and force him to hit free throws.  When Curry has the ball you force him to put it on the floor, smothering him with full court pressure and maybe force him into a turnover.  Even Jordan - for most of his career he was a pretty poor three point shooter, so if you could somehow force him into a three you had a shot. 

With Kobe, there was no game plan.  You could not force Kobe into an uncomfortable shot, because there is no such thing as an uncomfortable shot for Kobe.  For Kobe, a turnaround, fadeaway 26 footer with a hand in his face is pretty much a routine jumper.   You can't play Kobe close, you can't sag off him.  You can't foul him.  You can't force him left or force him right.  You can't force him into a difficult contested midrange jumper, because he loves those.  You can't give him layups, you can't let him get on the fast break, you can't give him a three, you can't force him into the post, and you can't force him to drive and then send a big over to block him off.  You can't even double or triple team him because he was such a good passer that he could find the open guy.

Kobe, when in the mood, was absolutely indefensible. 

Scarier then that...when it was crunch time, he was ALWAYS in the mood.  You can't ever shake Kobe's confidence.  You can't even scare him away from taking a shot.  No cold streak is going to make him second guess himself.  The man is a stone cold killer.

So for the above reasons, no opponent has ever scared me more then Kobe.

If I had to name the guys who would come after him, it would probably be Melo and Dirki when they were in their primes.  Melo is right up there with Kobe as one of the most versatile scorers the NBA has ever seen.  Dirk is not quite as versatile, but his size combined with his skill as a shooter make him almost impossible to spot as well. 

There may have been players who were more consistent offensively then Kobe.  There may have been players who were more efficient offensively then Kobe.  There may have been players who were more fundamentally sound, and who made better decisions with the ball. 

But I don't know if I have ever watched a player who was as utterly capable  / unstoppable as scorer (at his best) as Kobe was.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 04:08:52 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Clutchest player ever?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2016, 04:53:12 AM »

Offline moiso

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That's who I was going to say.  Kobe wasn't clutch... he missed greater percentage of game winners than most.  Bird was clutch but he got to take all the final shots because he was Bird.  Horry was a role player who time and time again hit daggers.

Re: Clutchest player ever?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2016, 05:47:28 AM »

Offline Ogaju

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I cannot declare Kobe the most clutch ever, as I've not seen enough of historical players to make that call.

What I can say is that while I've been a Celtics fan (which was basically since KG came here - as he was my favourite player) there is no opponent who has scared me more at the end of games then Kobe.

The big reason Kobe scared me so much was his offensive versatility. Kobe was one of those rare offensive players who could score from anywhere and everywhere. 

He could post, he could drive, he had an amazing midrange game, he could hit the three, he could score in transition and he could get to the line - where he shot a high percentage.  His jumper was especially scary because he could take the pull up, he could spot up, he could shoot off screens, he could hit turnarounds, he could hit fadeaways - there wasn't a single type of shot Kobe could not hit.

When Lebron has the ball, you can try to force him into taking a long jumper, and you improve your odds of him missing.  When Shaq had the ball, you could foul him and force him to hit free throws.  When Curry has the ball you force him to put it on the floor, smothering him with full court pressure and maybe force him into a turnover.  Even Jordan - for most of his career he was a pretty poor three point shooter, so if you could somehow force him into a three you had a shot. 

With Kobe, there was no game plan.  You could not force Kobe into an uncomfortable shot, because there is no such thing as an uncomfortable shot for Kobe.  For Kobe, a turnaround, fadeaway 26 footer with a hand in his face is pretty much a routine jumper.   You can't play Kobe close, you can't sag off him.  You can't foul him.  You can't force him left or force him right.  You can't force him into a difficult contested midrange jumper, because he loves those.  You can't give him layups, you can't let him get on the fast break, you can't give him a three, you can't force him into the post, and you can't force him to drive and then send a big over to block him off.  You can't even double or triple team him because he was such a good passer that he could find the open guy.

Kobe, when in the mood, was absolutely indefensible. 

Scarier then that...when it was crunch time, he was ALWAYS in the mood.  You can't ever shake Kobe's confidence.  You can't even scare him away from taking a shot.  No cold streak is going to make him second guess himself.  The man is a stone cold killer.

So for the above reasons, no opponent has ever scared me more then Kobe.

If I had to name the guys who would come after him, it would probably be Melo and Dirki when they were in their primes.  Melo is right up there with Kobe as one of the most versatile scorers the NBA has ever seen.  Dirk is not quite as versatile, but his size combined with his skill as a shooter make him almost impossible to spot as well. 

There may have been players who were more consistent offensively then Kobe.  There may have been players who were more efficient offensively then Kobe.  There may have been players who were more fundamentally sound, and who made better decisions with the ball. 

But I don't know if I have ever watched a player who was as utterly capable  / unstoppable as scorer (at his best) as Kobe was.

Well, what can I say but TP!!! The analysis linked by Slightly Biased Fan shows without a doubt that fearlessness of Kobe as he leads in almost all categories of clutch shots attempted, and even as he leads by a wide margin in attempted clutch shots he still maintains a relatively comparable average to other players that shied away from such shots.