Steroids

[fairweatherfan]

Well, if we're just casting aspersions without any real proof, our marquee FA pickup this year had season-ending pectoral tears in consecutive seasons.  Those kinds of fluky severe major muscle injuries are typical of PED use.  I trust everyone will do the right thing and immediately jump to the appropriate conclusions.

You're right. In fact, I think it's strongly likely that there are members of the Celtics roster that have done PEDs.

The reason I bring up Lebron isn't just that I'm a Celtics fan. I also brought up Serena Williams. I could have brought up, for instance, Dara Torres who set a new US record in swimming at age 40.

The point is with these athletes is that there's a lot at stake. Is Lebron James the greatest basketball player ever? Is he greater than Russell, or Wilt, or Jordan? A lot of people believe the answer is yes. And we're having the same conversations about Serena Williams, and Dara Torres, and Ray Lewis, etc. This is what I find frustrating.

I have no doubt there are players on PEDs in every major sport, and even minor ones nobody follows (competitive chess has apparently had some issues with them, though performance is enhanced differently of course). 

But what gets me is that even if the NBA's testing procedure isn't strong, the Olympics' is, to the point of saving samples to retroactively test them as new techniques are developed.  All of the athletes you've named, and most of the other marquee NBA guys in the discussion, have passed those tests, often repeatedly.  If they're juicing they've gotten concealing it down to a science.  Possible for some to pull that off, sure, but the odds of all or most of the prominent players named pulling it off for decades now seems very low.  I'm positive some of the usual suspects are juicing to some degree, and probably quite a few that no one would suspect (*cough* Don MacLean) I just don't like the "guilty til proven innocent" mindset as it's incredibly unlikely in my mind that all of these guys we point our fingers at keep getting away with it.

[CapnDunks]

I gotta say, I think it's super naive to think that you can tell who's used and who hasn't. Steroids have huge advantages beyond making you huge or toned or strong. The main overlooked issue is that you can use banned substances to drastically reduce recovery time from injury.

Which substances are allowed is largely arbitrary anyways. I just don't think this is a big deal. Even if the NBA tested more, guys will still get their bodies together and cycle in the offseason or find the timing they need to avoid the tests.

If the choice was take HGH to get back on the court in time for the playoffs after injury in a contract year, or obey a set of arbitrary rules to protect a "level playing field" that is an illusion anyways, I wouldn't even think about it.

[gift]

This thread is ridiculous and I have now contributed to it.

[manl_lui]

meh, I might get a lot of hate for this, but I don't think PEDs should be illegal in professional sports. I actually think it levels the playing field more than one or two players having an "unfair advantage". The boost is so minimal and not to mention if it is legal, in my honest opinion, less likely to be abused as you have professionals who would give you recommended dosages. Of course also having people tell you all the health risks in the future also gives players an option.

[dannyboy35]

I think it's ridiculous how the media admitted to having their heads in the sand about roids in baseball and if they tested in football for real they wouldn't be able to field a team. Look at baseball and David Ortiz? It's a joke. Everyone (I'm sure there are exceptions) is cheating.

[dannyboy35]

I don't think the boost is a minimal thing at all. Not when a guy like Ortiz is doing the things he does at this dtage when it looked like he was aging out of baseball 5 years ago.

[greece66]

I have no doubt there are players on PEDs in every major sport, and even minor ones nobody follows (competitive chess has apparently had some issues with them, though performance is enhanced differently of course). 

But what gets me is that even if the NBA's testing procedure isn't strong, the Olympics' is, to the point of saving samples to retroactively test them as new techniques are developed.  All of the athletes you've named, and most of the other marquee NBA guys in the discussion, have passed those tests, often repeatedly.  If they're juicing they've gotten concealing it down to a science.  Possible for some to pull that off, sure, but the odds of all or most of the prominent players named pulling it off for decades now seems very low.  I'm positive some of the usual suspects are juicing to some degree, and probably quite a few that no one would suspect (*cough* Don MacLean) I just don't like the "guilty til proven innocent" mindset as it's incredibly unlikely in my mind that all of these guys we point our fingers at keep getting away with it.

This is taking the conversation to a different direction, but I'd be interested to know what you know about chess. iirc there were some issues when chess became an Olympic sport as they imposed the same controls as in all other sports but most of these substances do not improve chess performance whatsoever. There are some drugs which supposedly improve mental performance (allegedly widely used by universities students too these days) but I do not know if chess players are checked for them at the Olympics (tbh I doubt it, and iirc they are not tested for them in any major chess tournament outside the Olympics either).

More related to the topic, the Greek weightlifting team was almost certainly taking illegal drugs for over a decade- in the end they caught them, that was after the Thanou-Kenteris incident in the 2004 Olympics but it could well be the case that they went unnoticed for several years. But yes, I also have doubts that many NBA players can get away with it for a long period of time- maybe a few did, but it's unlikely to do such a thing over a 15 year career with NBA controls and participation in international events too.

[greece66]

meh, I might get a lot of hate for this, but I don't think PEDs should be illegal in professional sports. I actually think it levels the playing field more than one or two players having an "unfair advantage". The boost is so minimal and not to mention if it is legal, in my honest opinion, less likely to be abused as you have professionals who would give you recommended dosages. Of course also having people tell you all the health risks in the future also gives players an option.

Hmmm, discussing whether they should be illegal or not would take the conversation to a wholly different direction.

Having said this, the boost from steroids if far from minimal.

[GratefulCs]

meh, I might get a lot of hate for this, but I don't think PEDs should be illegal in professional sports. I actually think it levels the playing field more than one or two players having an "unfair advantage". The boost is so minimal and not to mention if it is legal, in my honest opinion, less likely to be abused as you have professionals who would give you recommended dosages. Of course also having people tell you all the health risks in the future also gives players an option.

the only reason i think they should be banned is because of the few who aren't using


Should someone abandon their calling just because they don't want to eff up their body with drugs they don't know about?

[konkmv]

It seems like eveyone is using them... but without proof ot is useless threat... you tell me you woulld not like players like george buttler westbrook drummond in your team.. all these skinny boys....

[loco_91]

I'm sure there are guys on steroids and on HGH, but I'm not sure you can tell who it is just from looking at them. You take the entire population of the USA, and someone is going to have freakishly high natural levels of HGH, and odds are that guy is in the NBA--because he's 6'9 265.

I am not sure how big an advantage it is to take HGH and steroids, but I imagine that recovery is a bigger advantage than bulking up. NBA guys don't want to look like Roger Clemens. But you do want to help your body recover at the end of a long season, and roids are great for that.

[Denis998]

A good amount of players in the NBA have hyperactive anterior pituitary glands that release HGH at abnormally high levels. This starts early in childhood, and growth continues until the late teens and early 20's. At that point the body stops growing and the only parts that are affected are finger size, forehead, and jaw.

[Jon]

I tend to think that LeBron is on HGH for many of the reasons already discussed. The only thing I'll say as a caveat to it all is that in the NBA it is particularly hard to tell since a very high percent of the league is abnormally tall and probably does have some sort of odd growth/hormonal imbalance (as opposed to baseball, where players tend to be closer to average height).

That said, the NBA has always had tall players, and none of them had jaws and skulls like LeBron.

[celticsclay]

I tend to think that LeBron is on HGH for many of the reasons already discussed. The only thing I'll say as a caveat to it all is that in the NBA it is particularly hard to tell since a very high percent of the league is abnormally tall and probably does have some sort of odd growth/hormonal imbalance (as opposed to baseball, where players tend to be closer to average height).

That said, the NBA has always had tall players, and none of them had jaws and skulls like LeBron.

It seems weird that we are all willing to chalk everything up with Lebron to him being a physical freak. Consider the following things

1) He is already 42nd all time in minutes played (right ahead of Kevin Willis who played into his 40's and Steve Nash who was pretty healthy until his final age 40 or 41 season) He has never had a single serious injury in his career
2) He had to have a weird and vague procedure to remove a growth from his jaw
3) He has obviously gone bald at a very young age
4) He has probably put on about 40 pounds of mass since entering the league (look at the pics in this thread)
5) The rapid weight loss he did as a ketogenic diet. I don't want to get off track but I am on a keto diet right now and you don't lose that much muscle mass in 67 days (http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_large/hash/dd/8a/dd8a9e3c230b18c9a933fa55ebac43ff.jpg?itok=GGUmaEe3)

Any one of these by themselves, particularly the baldness, could be totally normal stuff. However, you put those 5 together and it becomes pretty naive to think there isn't a very high chance he has used either anabolic steroids or hgh throughout his career.

[clover]

I'm sure there are guys on steroids and on HGH, but I'm not sure you can tell who it is just from looking at them. You take the entire population of the USA, and someone is going to have freakishly high natural levels of HGH, and odds are that guy is in the NBA--because he's 6'9 265.

I am not sure how big an advantage it is to take HGH and steroids, but I imagine that recovery is a bigger advantage than bulking up. NBA guys don't want to look like Roger Clemens. But you do want to help your body recover at the end of a long season, and roids are great for that.

There's clearly a look. Think of Pete Rose or Barry Bonds. But there also have been a lot of so-so pro athletes who don't have the look but have also been caught juicing to some degree.