Chicago Tribune on Celtics offer

[BringToughnessBack]

Hard for me to fault Danny for not coming to terms on a trade for Butler( I do fault him for not trading down a few spots though) when we don't know what exactly the bulls wanted...Crowder, the 3 and a future Brooklyn pick or two would be overkill and way too much..Crowder and 3 and perhaps another lower tier player would be acceptable and fair...Crowder, Bradley and the 3 too much though...

[jpotter33]

"Other pieces would have been included" is huge. What pieces exactly? Rosier? Nets 2017? It makes a huge difference.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-main-bulls-spt-0624-20160623-story.html

The Bulls held advanced discussions with the Celtics centered on Butler and the No. 3 pick. One proposal featured Avery Bradley, a source said. Another involved Jae Crowder, a second source said. Other pieces would have been included.

But the Celtics have a reputation around the league of trying to win trades, and the overall package kept changing and never met the Bulls' liking, sources said. Management understands the talent and value of Butler. And the Bulls ultimately liked the package they received from the Knicks for Rose more than the package offered for Butler.

This is the part that means the most. Both last night and tonight, a bunch of people on Twitter and elsewhere say this very thing, and it's scary. People don't want to really trade with Danny because A) they don't want to be the next Billy King, and B) Danny always tries to fleece everybody. There comes a point (about a year and a half ago) where that philosophy just doesn't work anymore.

At least we know that ridiculous overpay that was floated around last night was fake.

So, what, Danny should make bad deals to make other GMs like him more or be less intimidated?  No thanks, I'll take Danny just the way he is

I don't think the Bulls know what they're doing. Sounds like they were more concerned with not losing a trade than making a move to help them in the long run.

Haha, TP

If you take Danny just the way he is, then be prepared for the treadmill for awhile. Situations where we fleece other teams don't happen very often and require the right circumstances to occur - see KG being disgruntled and Brooklyn being desperate. There's absolutely no indication that this trade offer was any more than the one Danny refused at the deadline, which was Crowder and the Brooklyn Pick (and salary filler and maybe lesser picks). Would you be fine with him turning down Crowder and #3 (basically) for Butler? I'm not.

But based off what the Chicago reporter said, it just wasn't Crowder and #3.  It was also "other pieces". We don't know how significant the other pieces were. They could have asked for all the BRK picks for all we know.

Sure, it very well could have been, and that would've been a major overpay that wasn't justified.

However, I seriously doubt that it was. As the report says, the trade was centered around the #3 pick with EITHER AB or Crowder, so we know that it wasn't too far off of the Crowder + Brooklyn pick that was the offer at the trade deadline. There's no reason why it would've been much more than that now, because Bulls guys are essentially saying that Minny was never close to actually trading for them due to the Thibs/management dysfunction/hatred. Also, other pieces were necessarily involved to get the numbers to work out, so it very well could've just been salary filler.

I honestly think this was Danny just being stingy again and having Crowder be "untouchable" in trades, which was the reported value of Crowder at the deadline to Danny.

[jpotter33]

Hard for me to fault Danny for not coming to terms on a trade for Butler( I do fault him for not trading down a few spots though) when we don't know what exactly the bulls wanted...Crowder, the 3 and a future Brooklyn pick or two would be overkill and way too much..Crowder and 3 and perhaps another lower tier player would be acceptable and fair...Crowder, Bradley and the 3 too much though...

That's another thing. There was absolutely no indication that Brown was going to anywhere before 6. Could he have not traded down even a little while picking up assets? Also, why not grab Chriss from the Kings, too? They got him for peanuts, and we were supposedly really high on him, too.

It just seemed that there were several options that he didn't take that he could have.

[hpantazo]

There's not one player on our team more valuable than butler.  Not one.  Next year bkn pick don't know if I'd include that, but #3 and Bradley or It or smart or freakin jae crowder?  Absolutely.  We over value a .500 team that can't make it out of the first round for two straight years so what does Danny do?  Add to it with unproven rookies...brilliant. Keep hope alive, it'll still be just as strong in 2020

We won 48 games last season , Chicago won 42, in the same conference. Why should we be so desperate to trade for a player who couldn't get his team to win as many games as we won? If Butler was really that much better than anyone on our roster, the Bulls should have won at least 50 games.

Maybe we are overvaluing a good player on a .500 team that couldn't make noise in the playoffs for the past two years...

[ChillyWilly]

I'm good with Ainge's decision. He took a guy at #3 that Jimmy Butler described as a young Jimmy Butler, and we still have Bradley, Crowder, and our draft pick assets and cap space.

TP I'm with you on this. This was a good fun team to watch, put a similar product on the floor in 2016-2017 and I'm fine waiting for a better opportunity to present itself.

Barring late season and playoff injuries this should have been a 50 win team that took the #3 seed in the East. This team as of right now we could argue is a top 4 in the East and nothing short of Durant is going to push us to #1 or #2.

Why then give up so much to gain so little ground. I think the Celtics FO is very smart for waiting for a better opportunity. I know Wyc keeps promising fireworks but screw fireworks their excitement only last a brief moment.

I want to see a foundation being built ala New England Patriots. Plug your kind of guy into any slot and it works.

[Royrebirth]

Read a report that it was Smart, 3, 16, 23, 31, Crowder AND Bradley, and nets 2017. If this is true, which I would not be surprised, then good move Danny.

[PAOBoston]

"Other pieces would have been included" is huge. What pieces exactly? Rosier? Nets 2017? It makes a huge difference.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-main-bulls-spt-0624-20160623-story.html

The Bulls held advanced discussions with the Celtics centered on Butler and the No. 3 pick. One proposal featured Avery Bradley, a source said. Another involved Jae Crowder, a second source said. Other pieces would have been included.

But the Celtics have a reputation around the league of trying to win trades, and the overall package kept changing and never met the Bulls' liking, sources said. Management understands the talent and value of Butler. And the Bulls ultimately liked the package they received from the Knicks for Rose more than the package offered for Butler.

This is the part that means the most. Both last night and tonight, a bunch of people on Twitter and elsewhere say this very thing, and it's scary. People don't want to really trade with Danny because A) they don't want to be the next Billy King, and B) Danny always tries to fleece everybody. There comes a point (about a year and a half ago) where that philosophy just doesn't work anymore.

At least we know that ridiculous overpay that was floated around last night was fake.

So, what, Danny should make bad deals to make other GMs like him more or be less intimidated?  No thanks, I'll take Danny just the way he is

I don't think the Bulls know what they're doing. Sounds like they were more concerned with not losing a trade than making a move to help them in the long run.

Haha, TP

If you take Danny just the way he is, then be prepared for the treadmill for awhile. Situations where we fleece other teams don't happen very often and require the right circumstances to occur - see KG being disgruntled and Brooklyn being desperate. There's absolutely no indication that this trade offer was any more than the one Danny refused at the deadline, which was Crowder and the Brooklyn Pick (and salary filler and maybe lesser picks). Would you be fine with him turning down Crowder and #3 (basically) for Butler? I'm not.

But based off what the Chicago reporter said, it just wasn't Crowder and #3.  It was also "other pieces". We don't know how significant the other pieces were. They could have asked for all the BRK picks for all we know.

Sure, it very well could have been, and that would've been a major overpay that wasn't justified.

However, I seriously doubt that it was. As the report says, the trade was centered around the #3 pick with EITHER AB or Crowder, so we know that it wasn't too far off of the Crowder + Brooklyn pick that was the offer at the trade deadline. There's no reason why it would've been much more than that now, because Bulls guys are essentially saying that Minny was never close to actually trading for them due to the Thibs/management dysfunction/hatred. Also, other pieces were necessarily involved to get the numbers to work out, so it very well could've just been salary filler.

I honestly think this was Danny just being stingy again and having Crowder be "untouchable" in trades, which was the reported value of Crowder at the deadline to Danny.

I don't see it like that. I think the Bulls got what they wanted the other day when they were able to offload Rose. I don't think they were ever truly serious about truly trading Butler unless it was a deal they could win. Butler signed a long term deal so they don't have to worry about him leaving. They wouldn't trade Butler unless they were receiving a haul for him. So they entire notion of Butler for just Crowder/#3/spare parts seems very unlikely to me.

[BitterJim]

"Other pieces would have been included" is huge. What pieces exactly? Rosier? Nets 2017? It makes a huge difference.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-main-bulls-spt-0624-20160623-story.html

The Bulls held advanced discussions with the Celtics centered on Butler and the No. 3 pick. One proposal featured Avery Bradley, a source said. Another involved Jae Crowder, a second source said. Other pieces would have been included.

But the Celtics have a reputation around the league of trying to win trades, and the overall package kept changing and never met the Bulls' liking, sources said. Management understands the talent and value of Butler. And the Bulls ultimately liked the package they received from the Knicks for Rose more than the package offered for Butler.

This is the part that means the most. Both last night and tonight, a bunch of people on Twitter and elsewhere say this very thing, and it's scary. People don't want to really trade with Danny because A) they don't want to be the next Billy King, and B) Danny always tries to fleece everybody. There comes a point (about a year and a half ago) where that philosophy just doesn't work anymore.

At least we know that ridiculous overpay that was floated around last night was fake.

So, what, Danny should make bad deals to make other GMs like him more or be less intimidated?  No thanks, I'll take Danny just the way he is

I don't think the Bulls know what they're doing. Sounds like they were more concerned with not losing a trade than making a move to help them in the long run.

Haha, TP

If you take Danny just the way he is, then be prepared for the treadmill for awhile. Situations where we fleece other teams don't happen very often and require the right circumstances to occur - see KG being disgruntled and Brooklyn being desperate. There's absolutely no indication that this trade offer was any more than the one Danny refused at the deadline, which was Crowder and the Brooklyn Pick (and salary filler and maybe lesser picks). Would you be fine with him turning down Crowder and #3 (basically) for Butler? I'm not.

*Looks at Rondo trade
*Looks at IT trade

Hmmmm

I don't buy the whole "GM's are afraid to trade with Danny" thing (If you're afraid of being outsmarted, you shouldn't be a GM.  And when's the last time you saw a GM that wasn't a cocky *******?), and I want a GM that always tries to get the better end of a deal a lot more than one who settles and gets screwed

[jpotter33]

Read a report that it was Smart, 3, 16, 23, 31, Crowder AND Bradley, and nets 2017. If this is true, which I would not be surprised, then good move Danny.

Read the report above. There's absolutely no way this was an actual offer. It was from some loon who didn't know what he was talking about.

[Eja117]

It only becomes a problem when you become desperate to make a trade. Fanbase may be there now. Danny isn't.

Yeah the shear despair that keeps coming here and on twitter every year we don't trade for a all-star is something you cannot fall into as a GM.

If you do you become the Knicks.

To be fair Porzingis is a better asset than anything we have and a guy like Durant would be way more likely to go to NYC right now than us.  Yet I agree with the premise. I'd rather be us than the Knicks.

[jpotter33]

"Other pieces would have been included" is huge. What pieces exactly? Rosier? Nets 2017? It makes a huge difference.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-main-bulls-spt-0624-20160623-story.html

The Bulls held advanced discussions with the Celtics centered on Butler and the No. 3 pick. One proposal featured Avery Bradley, a source said. Another involved Jae Crowder, a second source said. Other pieces would have been included.

But the Celtics have a reputation around the league of trying to win trades, and the overall package kept changing and never met the Bulls' liking, sources said. Management understands the talent and value of Butler. And the Bulls ultimately liked the package they received from the Knicks for Rose more than the package offered for Butler.

This is the part that means the most. Both last night and tonight, a bunch of people on Twitter and elsewhere say this very thing, and it's scary. People don't want to really trade with Danny because A) they don't want to be the next Billy King, and B) Danny always tries to fleece everybody. There comes a point (about a year and a half ago) where that philosophy just doesn't work anymore.

At least we know that ridiculous overpay that was floated around last night was fake.

So, what, Danny should make bad deals to make other GMs like him more or be less intimidated?  No thanks, I'll take Danny just the way he is

I don't think the Bulls know what they're doing. Sounds like they were more concerned with not losing a trade than making a move to help them in the long run.

Haha, TP

If you take Danny just the way he is, then be prepared for the treadmill for awhile. Situations where we fleece other teams don't happen very often and require the right circumstances to occur - see KG being disgruntled and Brooklyn being desperate. There's absolutely no indication that this trade offer was any more than the one Danny refused at the deadline, which was Crowder and the Brooklyn Pick (and salary filler and maybe lesser picks). Would you be fine with him turning down Crowder and #3 (basically) for Butler? I'm not.

*Looks at Rondo trade
*Looks at IT trade

Hmmmm

I don't buy the whole "GM's are afraid to trade with Danny" thing (If you're afraid of being outsmarted, you shouldn't be a GM.  And when's the last time you saw a GM that wasn't a cocky *******?), and I want a GM that always tries to get the better end of a deal a lot more than one who settles and gets screwed

Okay, I forgot about the IT trade. That was legitimately him taking advantage of a bad situation and a fleece.

I don't think the Rondo situation was, though. That was more of Dallas misusing him and him conflicting with Carlisle than anything. Crowder turned into a decent player, but he just needed more time on the floor. I don't think that was actually a "fleece" but more of them mismanaging Rondo and us giving Crowder actual time. If they would've manage Rondo correctly and played to his style, then the trade would've been much more even than it is seen today.

[cltc5]

There's not one player on our team more valuable than butler.  Not one.  Next year bkn pick don't know if I'd include that, but #3 and Bradley or It or smart or freakin jae crowder?  Absolutely.  We over value a .500 team that can't make it out of the first round for two straight years so what does Danny do?  Add to it with unproven rookies...brilliant. Keep hope alive, it'll still be just as strong in 2020

We won 48 games last season , Chicago won 42, in the same conference. Why should we be so desperate to trade for a player who couldn't get his team to win as many games as we won? If Butler was really that much better than anyone on our roster, the Bulls should have won at least 50 games.

Maybe we are overvaluing a good player on a .500 team that couldn't make noise in the playoffs for the past two years...

How'd the Knicks do? Would you trade for melo?  How'd New Orleans do?  Would you trade for Anthony Davis? minnesota?  Would you trade for towns or Wiggins.  That's what I thought.

[jpotter33]

It only becomes a problem when you become desperate to make a trade. Fanbase may be there now. Danny isn't.

Yeah the shear despair that keeps coming here and on twitter every year we don't trade for a all-star is something you cannot fall into as a GM.

If you do you become the Knicks.

To be fair Porzingis is a better asset than anything we have and a guy like Durant would be way more likely to go to NYC right now than us. Yet I agree with the premise. I'd rather be us than the Knicks.

I don't think that's true at all. We're still a much better team than the Knicks right now and what they'll end up playing with next season. Hell, they only have four players on their roster right now.

[heyvik]

Hard for me to fault Danny for not coming to terms on a trade for Butler( I do fault him for not trading down a few spots though) when we don't know what exactly the bulls wanted...Crowder, the 3 and a future Brooklyn pick or two would be overkill and way too much..Crowder and 3 and perhaps another lower tier player would be acceptable and fair...Crowder, Bradley and the 3 too much though...

That's another thing. There was absolutely no indication that Brown was going to anywhere before 6. Could he have not traded down even a little while picking up assets? Also, why not grab Chriss from the Kings, too? They got him for peanuts, and we were supposedly really high on him, too.

It just seemed that there were several options that he didn't take that he could have.

This!!!
Danny could have either taken Dunn, and then negoiated. OR move down to get assets ALL WHILE taken Brown later...but I think it all goes back to the fact that Danny wants to WIN all TRADES...at this point, he just found out what happens when he's stingy...YOU LOSE!

[PhoSita]

My guess is Chicago wanted #3 as well as the other two Brooklyn picks, in addition to Bradley or Crowder.  Maybe Smart as well.

Basically, I fully expect that Chicago told Danny to put all of the blue chips on the table.  Danny, probably smartly, declined.

Still, choosing not to go all-in on Butler probably means the Durant dream is well and truly dead.  It's hard to imagine guys like Horford or Dwight seriously considering the Celts, either.