Bird>James

[budMovin]

Russell would have been a bigger stronger more athletic version of Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman in the modern NBA.

A stronger Ben Wallace??? No, not even close.

The rest of that statement is possible though.

Yes, Russell would have been a stronger Ben Wallace.

Wallace might have been the strongest player in history alongside The Mailman.

That is just nonsense.  Ben Wallace's best bench was 460.  At the age of 59 years old Wilt Chamberlain benched 465. 

People have said in his prime Wilt benched over 500 pounds with ease and would do it multiple times.  Bill more than held his own with Wilt despite the significant size disadvantage. 

Now Wilt and Bill were freak athletes and far exceeded their peers in strength, athleticism, etc.  That is what made them so special and made their games just feel different than the games against everyone else.  And that is why there is no question, that especially with modern medicine, training, etc. they would have been every bit as good and dominant.

Hahahahahhaa. No. Wilt was the greatest physical specimen the league has ever seen, but he didn't bench 465 at 59 years old. He didnt even bench close to that in his prime. 465 is something that only the strongest linemen in football put up (while on a steroid cycle).

If Wilt was truly that strong he would be benching world records with today's diet and exercise while in his prime.

[kozlodoev]

Russell would have been a bigger stronger more athletic version of Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman in the modern NBA.

A stronger Ben Wallace??? No, not even close.

The rest of that statement is possible though.

Yes, Russell would have been a stronger Ben Wallace.

Wallace might have been the strongest player in history alongside The Mailman.

That is just nonsense.  Ben Wallace's best bench was 460.  At the age of 59 years old Wilt Chamberlain benched 465. 

People have said in his prime Wilt benched over 500 pounds with ease and would do it multiple times.  Bill more than held his own with Wilt despite the significant size disadvantage. 

Now Wilt and Bill were freak athletes and far exceeded their peers in strength, athleticism, etc.  That is what made them so special and made their games just feel different than the games against everyone else.  And that is why there is no question, that especially with modern medicine, training, etc. they would have been every bit as good and dominant.

Hahahahahhaa. No. Wilt was the greatest physical specimen the league has ever seen, but he didn't bench 465 at 59 years old. He didnt even bench close to that in his prime. 465 is something that only the strongest linemen in football put up (while on a steroid cycle).

If Wilt was truly that strong he would be benching world records with today's diet and exercise while in his prime.

Well, some of the testimony about Wilt's strength describes another guy as "very strong" because he could move a 220 lbs. player out of the paint, so that gives you an idea about the baseline at that time.

[celticsclay]

LeBron is passing Larry Legend in nearly every statistical category with exception of RPG.

It's incredible to know that Larry - at SF, no less - averaged 10 RPG.

Larry had that innate ability to make those PLAYS, though...who can forget the "Steal by Bird?"

It's as if Larry was ALWAYS 2-3 steps ahead of his opponents..like Larry was in The Matrix.

I think LeBron can and will reach this level soon - if he doesn't get injured and I hope he doesn't. He gets by on a lot of physical play and over-powering his opponents right now but he certainly does have a bright mind. He doesn't always reach that "Zone" though. I've seen flashes of this (him tip-toeing the sidelines for the winning bucket in the Washington series a few years ago).

In just this GSW series alone he carried CLE and did not falter. Additionally, his play seemed to allow Kyrie to be extremely productive as well.

It will be AMAZING to see LeBron making the SAME PLAYS as Larry Legend one day. He shows flashes of it even now. It seemed as if Larry did not make his greatest plays until later in his career.

Larry just had that INNATE ability....a gift. I don't think you can teach these things. God made Larry and tossed the mold, seriously. I believe LeBron has it too but we see him physically over-powering his opponents so much.

I think it will be VERY interesting to see the Relaxed LeBron Post-Championship CLE from here on out. If the team stays together I'm believing we'll see a concerted effort on LBJ's part to get KLove and Kyrie even MORE involved - especially KLove.

When that happens LeBron James will be even MORE Bird-Like.

I think this argument is somewhat flawed though.  Lebron is too mechanical to me.  The same can be said ab out Bird playing today if he was healthier physically.  Bird's mechanics where a thing of beauty. Seeing him pull up and shoot the ball and pass with better health would beat lebron even worse.

Health was Bird's biggest downfall. Lebron has more issues than that. 

You are basically saying if LEbron was a better basketball player he'd beat Bird. But if Bird was better he'd beat Lebron.  I think their games Bird was better.  It was mainly the times and both players aren't optimally healthy for different reasons.

Lebron is too much of a miracle of science. He's on too many roids, the rules cater to him etc which hinders his game and his ability to get better as a player.   Where Bird wasn't enough a miracle of science in ways.  He was more self made and was more fighting against other obstacles.  Bird relied on dirty tactics himself to overcome those things.  It was coming from opposite sides of the spectrum though.

See, here's where it bothers me.

LeBron James has NEVER been proven to be on ANY kind of steroids. Sure - he's 6'8" and 260, but TBH that's no different from ME towering over many of my peers at 6'4".

It is as if "some" think of him as - unnatural. It reeks of something that I simply don't want to go there on.

Some in society simply cannot accept that LeBron James has gifts given by God. We should stop the steroids talk. It makes this VERY intelligent Blog look small.

And I don't see ANYTHING "mechanical" in LeBron James' game. You're not giving him enough credit for his basketball mind.

But this is CelticsBlog so I get it.

#DiehardGreenbloodedCelticsfanlovingLeBronJamesANDbasketball

He has had extremely dramatic weight gains and losses, he did have a growth removed from his jaw, he is balding and the structure of his head (skull size) certainly mirrors the changes in the structure of Barry Bonds head. Maybe he is totally clean, but lets not pretend there are not a few things and  signs that make it fair to think about. If he is on them, he certainly isn't the only player either, so I don't think it matters all that much.

[Eja117]

I'm afraid that argument is very hard to make after tonight.

If Bird had been able to play longer, maybe it's a different story.

But LeBron has surpassed Bird and he's got another 4-5 years left in all likelihood, maybe a lot longer.

And Bron wouldn't have one if he had been going up against Magic's Lakers or Bird's Celtics or the Bad Boy Pistons or MJ's Bulls.

Different times, but still

[Moranis]

Russell would have been a bigger stronger more athletic version of Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman in the modern NBA.

A stronger Ben Wallace??? No, not even close.

The rest of that statement is possible though.

Yes, Russell would have been a stronger Ben Wallace.

Wallace might have been the strongest player in history alongside The Mailman.

That is just nonsense.  Ben Wallace's best bench was 460.  At the age of 59 years old Wilt Chamberlain benched 465. 

People have said in his prime Wilt benched over 500 pounds with ease and would do it multiple times.  Bill more than held his own with Wilt despite the significant size disadvantage. 

Now Wilt and Bill were freak athletes and far exceeded their peers in strength, athleticism, etc.  That is what made them so special and made their games just feel different than the games against everyone else.  And that is why there is no question, that especially with modern medicine, training, etc. they would have been every bit as good and dominant.

Hahahahahhaa. No. Wilt was the greatest physical specimen the league has ever seen, but he didn't bench 465 at 59 years old. He didnt even bench close to that in his prime. 465 is something that only the strongest linemen in football put up (while on a steroid cycle).

If Wilt was truly that strong he would be benching world records with today's diet and exercise while in his prime.

Edit: Wilt could clean and jerk 375 pounds and dead lift 625 pounds.  He benched over 500 pounds.  He ran the 400m in 49 seconds in high school (the world record at the time was 45 seconds).  He broad jumped 23 feet and shot putted 56 feet (this was at a meet for U of Kansas).  He tripled jumped over 50 feet and won the Big 8 championship in the high jump.  He ran a sub 11 second, 100 meter and a sub 2 minute 800 meters (multiple times).  All of this has been confirmed by multiple people over the years and is well documented.  Wilt was the greatest physical specimen sports has ever seen.  And this was all done with 1960's technology, equipment, medicine, food, etc. 

Here is Arnold talking about their training together.

https://youtu.be/STXbuXGPdoY

That video also talks about the time that Wilt lifted KC Jones off of the floor by lifting the basketball that KC Jones wouldn't let go.  Or how about the time Hondo tried to foul him and grabbed his arms and Wilt just went up and dunked with Hondo hanging on him.

Here is part 2 https://youtu.be/xrpmGuCmGnc

[biggs]

LeBron is better. If Bird never hurt his back things could have been different overall but this last championship seals the deal for me. LeBron is past Bird.

Right, because having your entire career handed to you by the league and refs while on steroids and HGH, and having a physically dominant body before even taking the steroids qualifies you as better than Bird, who actually played against real competition, and not the paper tiger that is Golden State.

LeBron needed 3 #1 draft picks in 4 years to build his superteam- against all odds huh buddy? Proud of you.

LeBron needed Kyrie to hit the big shot, and Ray Allen, and Battier. Bird would have promised to make those shots and hit them all day.

But the biggest difference between the two players was the brain. Bird was the greatest passing SF of all time, go ahead and watch the footage. Bird had a killer instinct that James will never, ever have. Do you remember the end of the finals last year when LeBron missed like 5 threes in a row and quit on his team? That is the real LeBron.

I honestly think LeBron was better before he formed his superteams- I went to some of those games where LeBron put up 50 or so in the playoffs, and went toe-to-toe with our own PP. Back then he actually put the team on his back, and he lost ultimately, but it was amazing to watch. Once he became a role player on a team with shooters that could actually hit clutch shots-(like Kyrie winning the game for him with a clutch fadeaway 3) he just became a bull that plows his way inside, knocks over whoever is defending him, and relies on the refs, the league, and his teammates to cover his weaknesses.

LeBron may be a top 20 player of all time, but with the physical build he has, and all the steroids/HGH he takes, he should be the greatest of all time!

LeBron reminds me of Tracy Morgan on 30 Rock, when Kenneth beats him at Halo, and Griz and dot.com tell Kenneth to lose on purpose so that his reality doesn't come crumbling down. That is how LeBron has been treated his whole life- surrounded by "yes men" that tell him how great he is and how smart his decisions are. Does he really believe that he won this championship against all odds? Lebron- you had 3 no.1 draft picks in 4 years- the league handed you your team, and gave you the keys to the legue Ferrari that you can speed around in with no consequences.

Also-the warriors sucked!!! They basically went into their shells and didn't come out! A "historically good" team completely gave up and became hot garbage for you to play in once your irritating tactics got Green suspended!

I feel bad for LeBron, I really do. He lives a lie and believes his own BS, and his life is the Truman show. Well, at least it was gods plan, and LeBron against all odds defeated the juggernaut that is the Warriors, passing Larry bird in the process as one of the greatest (asterix- steroid era) players of all time! Right?

Name one of the top ten players of all-time that is better than Bird, but had to have the rules changed so that their go-to move was not considered traveling. I bet you'll find only one (according to you and your vast knowledge of NBA history).

LeBron is a joke. Have your championship Cleveland, uneducated fans go ahead and tell me that LeBron has passed Bird, my brother just tried that the other night (who knows nothing about basketball, but suspiciously watches ESPN), enjoy being a witness to his greatness! Yay! The nba has been such a great product since LeBron started forming superteams! Yay!

Edit- sorry, if I was mean 

[kozlodoev]

Edit: Wilt could clean and jerk 375 pounds

A 120 lbs (56 kg) guy can clean and jerk 375 lbs (170 kg). I assume you typoed the number?

http://www.iwf.net/results/world-records/

[fairweatherfan]

LeBron has the major advantage of just being handed cupcake opponents every Finals like the Warriors and Spurs - what have they ever won?  He never could've handled real competition like the 81 Rockets.

[Moranis]

Edit: Wilt could clean and jerk 375 pounds

A 120 lbs (56 kg) guy can clean and jerk 375 lbs (170 kg). I assume you typoed the number?

http://www.iwf.net/results/world-records/

In the early 60's the world record was less than 480 pounds. 

[kozlodoev]

Edit: Wilt could clean and jerk 375 pounds

A 120 lbs (56 kg) guy can clean and jerk 375 lbs (170 kg). I assume you typoed the number?

http://www.iwf.net/results/world-records/

In the early 60's the world record was less than 480 pounds.

Sure. As of 1960s, the world record for bantamweights was around 300 lbs, and the world record for heavyweight was 445 lbs.

[Moranis]

Edit: Wilt could clean and jerk 375 pounds

A 120 lbs (56 kg) guy can clean and jerk 375 lbs (170 kg). I assume you typoed the number?

http://www.iwf.net/results/world-records/

In the early 60's the world record was less than 480 pounds.

Sure. As of 1960s, the world record for bantamweights was around 300 lbs, and the world record for heavyweight was 445 lbs.

Right, which means Wilt's 375 is very impressive especially when you consider he wasn't actually training to maximize that or go for a record. 

Wilt was the strongest player the NBA has ever seen and might very well have been the most athletic.  Countless people, including Bill Russell, John Havileck, and KC Jones all verify his strength.  The fact that Bill could at least hang around with Wilt physically says far more about Bill's athleticism and strength than anything else.

[budMovin]

Russell would have been a bigger stronger more athletic version of Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman in the modern NBA.

A stronger Ben Wallace??? No, not even close.

The rest of that statement is possible though.

Yes, Russell would have been a stronger Ben Wallace.

Wallace might have been the strongest player in history alongside The Mailman.

That is just nonsense.  Ben Wallace's best bench was 460.  At the age of 59 years old Wilt Chamberlain benched 465. 

People have said in his prime Wilt benched over 500 pounds with ease and would do it multiple times.  Bill more than held his own with Wilt despite the significant size disadvantage. 

Now Wilt and Bill were freak athletes and far exceeded their peers in strength, athleticism, etc.  That is what made them so special and made their games just feel different than the games against everyone else.  And that is why there is no question, that especially with modern medicine, training, etc. they would have been every bit as good and dominant.

Hahahahahhaa. No. Wilt was the greatest physical specimen the league has ever seen, but he didn't bench 465 at 59 years old. He didnt even bench close to that in his prime. 465 is something that only the strongest linemen in football put up (while on a steroid cycle).

If Wilt was truly that strong he would be benching world records with today's diet and exercise while in his prime.

Edit: Wilt could clean and jerk 375 pounds and dead lift 625 pounds.  He benched over 500 pounds.  He ran the 400m in 49 seconds in high school (the world record at the time was 45 seconds).  He broad jumped 23 feet and shot putted 56 feet (this was at a meet for U of Kansas).  He tripled jumped over 50 feet and won the Big 8 championship in the high jump.  He ran a sub 11 second, 100 meter and a sub 2 minute 800 meters (multiple times).  All of this has been confirmed by multiple people over the years and is well documented.  Wilt was the greatest physical specimen sports has ever seen.  And this was all done with 1960's technology, equipment, medicine, food, etc. 

Here is Arnold talking about their training together.

https://youtu.be/STXbuXGPdoY

That video also talks about the time that Wilt lifted KC Jones off of the floor by lifting the basketball that KC Jones wouldn't let go.  Or how about the time Hondo tried to foul him and grabbed his arms and Wilt just went up and dunked with Hondo hanging on him.

Here is part 2 https://youtu.be/xrpmGuCmGnc

Any actual footage of these these feats? This sounds like the "the fish was this big" story where it keeps getting bigger over time. The old timers love to exaggerate. In the hockey world people claim that Bobby Hull had a 120mph slapshot and Gordie Howe has a 100 mph wrist shot, all while having smaller, wooden sticks.

I also heard Wilt could dunk from the free throw line flat footed. These feats just get greater and greater over the years.

I will admit that Wilt was the greatest athlete when it comes to dominating his peers in pretty much any sport, but let's be reasonable and assume that someone who did 1960s weight training and diets would not be head and shoulders stronger than those today. He was 7-1' and 260 at his peak, yet with his build he was as strong as 6-4' 350 linemen who do steroids today?

[kozlodoev]

Edit: Wilt could clean and jerk 375 pounds

A 120 lbs (56 kg) guy can clean and jerk 375 lbs (170 kg). I assume you typoed the number?

http://www.iwf.net/results/world-records/

In the early 60's the world record was less than 480 pounds.

Sure. As of 1960s, the world record for bantamweights was around 300 lbs, and the world record for heavyweight was 445 lbs.

Right, which means Wilt's 375 is very impressive especially when you consider he wasn't actually training to maximize that or go for a record. 

Wilt was the strongest player the NBA has ever seen and might very well have been the most athletic.  Countless people, including Bill Russell, John Havileck, and KC Jones all verify his strength.  The fact that Bill could at least hang around with Wilt physically says far more about Bill's athleticism and strength than anything else.

I'm sure he was considered strong in the 1960s, when moving a 220 lbs guy out of the paint was considered some sort of a feat (more on this here). The rest is tall tales.

[Moranis]

Russell would have been a bigger stronger more athletic version of Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman in the modern NBA.

A stronger Ben Wallace??? No, not even close.

The rest of that statement is possible though.

Yes, Russell would have been a stronger Ben Wallace.

Wallace might have been the strongest player in history alongside The Mailman.

That is just nonsense.  Ben Wallace's best bench was 460.  At the age of 59 years old Wilt Chamberlain benched 465. 

People have said in his prime Wilt benched over 500 pounds with ease and would do it multiple times.  Bill more than held his own with Wilt despite the significant size disadvantage. 

Now Wilt and Bill were freak athletes and far exceeded their peers in strength, athleticism, etc.  That is what made them so special and made their games just feel different than the games against everyone else.  And that is why there is no question, that especially with modern medicine, training, etc. they would have been every bit as good and dominant.

Hahahahahhaa. No. Wilt was the greatest physical specimen the league has ever seen, but he didn't bench 465 at 59 years old. He didnt even bench close to that in his prime. 465 is something that only the strongest linemen in football put up (while on a steroid cycle).

If Wilt was truly that strong he would be benching world records with today's diet and exercise while in his prime.

Edit: Wilt could clean and jerk 375 pounds and dead lift 625 pounds.  He benched over 500 pounds.  He ran the 400m in 49 seconds in high school (the world record at the time was 45 seconds).  He broad jumped 23 feet and shot putted 56 feet (this was at a meet for U of Kansas).  He tripled jumped over 50 feet and won the Big 8 championship in the high jump.  He ran a sub 11 second, 100 meter and a sub 2 minute 800 meters (multiple times).  All of this has been confirmed by multiple people over the years and is well documented.  Wilt was the greatest physical specimen sports has ever seen.  And this was all done with 1960's technology, equipment, medicine, food, etc. 

Here is Arnold talking about their training together.

https://youtu.be/STXbuXGPdoY

That video also talks about the time that Wilt lifted KC Jones off of the floor by lifting the basketball that KC Jones wouldn't let go.  Or how about the time Hondo tried to foul him and grabbed his arms and Wilt just went up and dunked with Hondo hanging on him.

Here is part 2 https://youtu.be/xrpmGuCmGnc

Any actual footage of these these feats? This sounds like the "the fish was this big" story where it keeps getting bigger over time. The old timers love to exaggerate. In the hockey world people claim that Bobby Hull had a 120mph slapshot and Gordie Howe has a 100 mph wrist shot, all while having smaller, wooden sticks.

I also heard Wilt could dunk from the free throw line flat footed. These feats just get greater and greater over the years.

I will admit that Wilt was the greatest athlete when it comes to dominating his peers in pretty much any sport, but let's be reasonable and assume that someone who did 1960s weight training and diets would not be head and shoulders stronger than those today. He was 7-1' and 260 at his peak, yet with his build he was as strong as 6-4' 350 linemen who do steroids today?

There are videos of some of his track feats out there and there are articles and records of his time at U. of Kansas regarding those track feats.  Arnold was talking about Wilt training with him when Wilt was 50.  I see no reason why Arnold would embellish that stuff. 

You can see old basketball footage of him dunking with guys hanging off of him.  All you have to do is some simple research. 

Wilt was a physical specimen like none the world has seen.  He was bigger stronger and faster than everyone else.  That is one of the reasons he still owns so many NBA records.  This is a guy that averaged 48.5 minutes one season when the average team scored 119 ppg and Wilt was taking 40 shots a game.  His stamina was incredible, his strength was incredible, his speed was incredible, etc.  Wilt was just a monster and he would have been a monster in any generation. 

[Moranis]

Edit: Wilt could clean and jerk 375 pounds

A 120 lbs (56 kg) guy can clean and jerk 375 lbs (170 kg). I assume you typoed the number?

http://www.iwf.net/results/world-records/

In the early 60's the world record was less than 480 pounds.

Sure. As of 1960s, the world record for bantamweights was around 300 lbs, and the world record for heavyweight was 445 lbs.

Right, which means Wilt's 375 is very impressive especially when you consider he wasn't actually training to maximize that or go for a record. 

Wilt was the strongest player the NBA has ever seen and might very well have been the most athletic.  Countless people, including Bill Russell, John Havileck, and KC Jones all verify his strength.  The fact that Bill could at least hang around with Wilt physically says far more about Bill's athleticism and strength than anything else.

I'm sure he was considered strong in the 1960s, when moving a 220 lbs guy out of the paint was considered some sort of a feat (more on this here). The rest is tall tales.

The article you posted references Arnold confirming Wilt was benching over 500 pounds. 

Look I'm sure there is some fantasy with Wilt, but it is unquestioned that Wilt was a monster.  EVERYONE who ever played against him, said he was by far the strongest person they ever met.