Bird>James

[walker834]

The game was completely different back then.  Now it is like a video game and based on numbers and somewhat predictable that way.  Curry is a skilled shooter but not nearly as skilled all around like Bird was.   Most players now have better lift and physical attributes but they are are also reliant on enhancements to do that.   I don't think Curry or Lebron would know how to deal with those Bird and Magic teams.  The styles would clash as much as anything.  I think the Bird and Magic teams would have similar issues with LEbron and Curry but not nearly as much.

The game now is a machine and much less human than it was. That's not to say it's better though.

There are a lot of dumb players in the nba now.  They do not have that kind of skill level.

Playing by their rules and lebrons rules today. Bird wins easily imo.  Lebron can have his steroids.  Bird can have his stuff that he used to do too.  That would be the only fair way to do it.  By each player  being able to play by their rules etc.  Bird could handcheck.  Lebron couldnt. 

[oldtype]

This is an argument that would only be had on a Celtics board  Lebron is both the better player and has had the better career.

On top of that, the NBA is clearly more talented today than it was twenty years ago. Guys are more athletic and the game has evolved to a point where they are more skilled as well. Guys hardly shot three pointers back in the day and now it's almost a required skill to be able to have a reasonably long career.

Someone mentioned Russell too...He wouldn't even be a starting caliber center in today's league. The guys he played against in the league wouldn't be high school players in today's world.

I think it is fair to say that the training regimens are more extreme today and the game has evolved some with rule changes, but today's players don't look any better or worse to me, or any more athletic for that matter. LeBron deserves all the praise he gets, but while he has a very high basketball IQ, he just doesn't have the level of instincts that Magic and Bird had, and he just isn't as tough mentally in the clutch.

Let's keep in mind that GS didn't score after the 4:39 mark, and Cleveland scored 4 points, one of which was a desperation 3 pointer. Cleveland won by choking a little less.

And your comments about Russell are difficult to swallow. Setting aside the fact that he was smarter and tougher, Russell was also a much better athlete than any big playing today.  In 1956, he was the 7th ranked high jumper in the world. He could run a 440 in under 50 seconds.

Given how important it is for bigs to be able to show on picks out to the 3 point line and recover, he would be just as valuable in today's game.

Yea you got served pretty hard there. Saying Russell would not be a starting NBA center. Maybe you want to take that one back?

I stand by it. I don't think he would be nearly as good in today's NBA. And no, if we're going to get into semantics I don't believe that his game would translate to today's game. He didn't have a jump shot, couldn't make free throws, wasn't spectacular on offense and frankly I think most centers in today's game have more skills than he or guys like Wilt Chamberlain ever did.

I mean, this sort of statement is just entirely pointless. You can only really judge a player's greatness by how they preform relative to their peers. Russell was shorter, weaker, and probably less technically proficient than most modern bigs, but he was leaps and bounds beyond what anyone else could do in his era, and that's what makes him a great player. Just because he wouldn't be an all star if you invented a time machine and dropped him in 2016 with zero context does not make him any less great.

It would be like ****ting on George Washington for not instituting Women's suffrage.

[walker834]

Lebron's teammates would be getting clotheslined and then be crying to the officials why wasn't a foul called while Bird was throwing an outlet pass down the other way and scoring.

[flybono]

LeBron has the edge in nearly every statistical category aside from free throw percentage and rebounds per game.

On top of that, he's been to the Finals more times and has the same number of rings.

Who gives a f### about Lebron James!

Birds era, there were 24 Teams not 30. Several Teams were stacked and there was a eastern conference powerhouse in the 76ers.
No way any Lebron Team would have gotten through the East vs the Sixers of that time period.

James is a great player. He was no Bird, Magic, Jordan or DWilkins for that matter

Yeah!

Plus Larry definitely carried a worse starting cast what with spending his entire career alongside two HOFers in their prime vice having to make Mo Williams an all star, and deal with a franchise run by a guy who types angry messages in Cosmic Sans vice Red Auerbach.

Face it MJ>Bron>Everyone else*

Since the modern era. The Russell/Wilt types are too tough to compare.

You must be a Pink hat. Tell u what, become a Cleveland fan!

[GreenFaith1819]

LeBron is passing Larry Legend in nearly every statistical category with exception of RPG.

It's incredible to know that Larry - at SF, no less - averaged 10 RPG.

Larry had that innate ability to make those PLAYS, though...who can forget the "Steal by Bird?"

It's as if Larry was ALWAYS 2-3 steps ahead of his opponents..like Larry was in The Matrix.

I think LeBron can and will reach this level soon - if he doesn't get injured and I hope he doesn't. He gets by on a lot of physical play and over-powering his opponents right now but he certainly does have a bright mind. He doesn't always reach that "Zone" though. I've seen flashes of this (him tip-toeing the sidelines for the winning bucket in the Washington series a few years ago).

In just this GSW series alone he carried CLE and did not falter. Additionally, his play seemed to allow Kyrie to be extremely productive as well.

It will be AMAZING to see LeBron making the SAME PLAYS as Larry Legend one day. He shows flashes of it even now. It seemed as if Larry did not make his greatest plays until later in his career.

Larry just had that INNATE ability....a gift. I don't think you can teach these things. God made Larry and tossed the mold, seriously. I believe LeBron has it too but we see him physically over-powering his opponents so much.

I think it will be VERY interesting to see the Relaxed LeBron Post-Championship CLE from here on out. If the team stays together I'm believing we'll see a concerted effort on LBJ's part to get KLove and Kyrie even MORE involved - especially KLove.

When that happens LeBron James will be even MORE Bird-Like.

[Banner18now!]

LeBron has the edge in nearly every statistical category aside from free throw percentage and rebounds per game.

On top of that, he's been to the Finals more times and has the same number of rings.

Who gives a f### about Lebron James!

Birds era, there were 24 Teams not 30. Several Teams were stacked and there was a eastern conference powerhouse in the 76ers.
No way any Lebron Team would have gotten through the East vs the Sixers of that time period.

James is a great player. He was no Bird, Magic, Jordan or DWilkins for that matter

Yeah!

Plus Larry definitely carried a worse starting cast what with spending his entire career alongside two HOFers in their prime vice having to make Mo Williams an all star, and deal with a franchise run by a guy who types angry messages in Cosmic Sans vice Red Auerbach.

Face it MJ>Bron>Everyone else*

Since the modern era. The Russell/Wilt types are too tough to compare.

You must be a Pink hat. Tell u what, become a Cleveland fan!

Exactly! This board is making sick with all these so called Celtics fans blowing Lebron right now. None of them ever watched Larry in his prime and wouldn't be disrespecting him if they did.

[walker834]

LeBron is passing Larry Legend in nearly every statistical category with exception of RPG.

It's incredible to know that Larry - at SF, no less - averaged 10 RPG.

Larry had that innate ability to make those PLAYS, though...who can forget the "Steal by Bird?"

It's as if Larry was ALWAYS 2-3 steps ahead of his opponents..like Larry was in The Matrix.

I think LeBron can and will reach this level soon - if he doesn't get injured and I hope he doesn't. He gets by on a lot of physical play and over-powering his opponents right now but he certainly does have a bright mind. He doesn't always reach that "Zone" though. I've seen flashes of this (him tip-toeing the sidelines for the winning bucket in the Washington series a few years ago).

In just this GSW series alone he carried CLE and did not falter. Additionally, his play seemed to allow Kyrie to be extremely productive as well.

It will be AMAZING to see LeBron making the SAME PLAYS as Larry Legend one day. He shows flashes of it even now. It seemed as if Larry did not make his greatest plays until later in his career.

Larry just had that INNATE ability....a gift. I don't think you can teach these things. God made Larry and tossed the mold, seriously. I believe LeBron has it too but we see him physically over-powering his opponents so much.

I think it will be VERY interesting to see the Relaxed LeBron Post-Championship CLE from here on out. If the team stays together I'm believing we'll see a concerted effort on LBJ's part to get KLove and Kyrie even MORE involved - especially KLove.

When that happens LeBron James will be even MORE Bird-Like.

I think this argument is somewhat flawed though.  Lebron is too mechanical to me.  The same can be said ab out Bird playing today if he was healthier physically.  Bird's mechanics were a thing of beauty. Seeing him pull up and shoot the ball and pass with better health would beat lebron even worse.

Health was Bird's biggest downfall. Lebron has more issues than that. 

You are basically saying if LEbron was a better basketball player he'd beat Bird. But if Bird was better he'd beat Lebron.  I think their games Bird was better.  It was mainly the times and both players aren't optimally healthy for different reasons.

Lebron is too much of a miracle of science. He's on too many roids, the rules cater to him etc which hinders his game and his ability to get better as a player.   Where Bird wasn't enough a miracle of science in ways.  He was more self made and was more fighting against other obstacles.  Bird relied on dirty tactics himself to overcome those things.  It was coming from opposite sides of the spectrum though.  Even Bird had to play down to his opponents back then as well.

[GreenFaith1819]

LeBron has the edge in nearly every statistical category aside from free throw percentage and rebounds per game.

On top of that, he's been to the Finals more times and has the same number of rings.

Who gives a f### about Lebron James!

Birds era, there were 24 Teams not 30. Several Teams were stacked and there was a eastern conference powerhouse in the 76ers.
No way any Lebron Team would have gotten through the East vs the Sixers of that time period.

James is a great player. He was no Bird, Magic, Jordan or DWilkins for that matter

Yeah!

Plus Larry definitely carried a worse starting cast what with spending his entire career alongside two HOFers in their prime vice having to make Mo Williams an all star, and deal with a franchise run by a guy who types angry messages in Cosmic Sans vice Red Auerbach.

Face it MJ>Bron>Everyone else*

Since the modern era. The Russell/Wilt types are too tough to compare.

You must be a Pink hat. Tell u what, become a Cleveland fan!

Exactly! This board is making sick with all these so called Celtics fans blowing Lebron right now. None of them ever watched Larry in his prime and wouldn't be disrespecting him if they did.

I am of "advancing age" and it's nothing wrong with appreciating greatness outside of BOS.

Celtics fans are fans of the GAME.

The "Game" extends outside of BOSTON. It really does.

It was Larry Bird that made me start liking BOS and Basketball way back in 1980. Love him or hate him LeBron James' game is special - especially now.

[walker834]

Bird to me is basically Durant but a better passer and not the leaper.  More a guy who relies on smarts and grit and savvy.   If we was playing today he'd basically be better than Durant which is better than Lebron.  He'd be a shooting, passing, gritty  player without the physical leaping ability but healthier than he was then. He'd be better than Dirk as well.  He basically was anyways.    He had health issues because they didn't have the same medical care back then. 

[GreenFaith1819]

LeBron is passing Larry Legend in nearly every statistical category with exception of RPG.

It's incredible to know that Larry - at SF, no less - averaged 10 RPG.

Larry had that innate ability to make those PLAYS, though...who can forget the "Steal by Bird?"

It's as if Larry was ALWAYS 2-3 steps ahead of his opponents..like Larry was in The Matrix.

I think LeBron can and will reach this level soon - if he doesn't get injured and I hope he doesn't. He gets by on a lot of physical play and over-powering his opponents right now but he certainly does have a bright mind. He doesn't always reach that "Zone" though. I've seen flashes of this (him tip-toeing the sidelines for the winning bucket in the Washington series a few years ago).

In just this GSW series alone he carried CLE and did not falter. Additionally, his play seemed to allow Kyrie to be extremely productive as well.

It will be AMAZING to see LeBron making the SAME PLAYS as Larry Legend one day. He shows flashes of it even now. It seemed as if Larry did not make his greatest plays until later in his career.

Larry just had that INNATE ability....a gift. I don't think you can teach these things. God made Larry and tossed the mold, seriously. I believe LeBron has it too but we see him physically over-powering his opponents so much.

I think it will be VERY interesting to see the Relaxed LeBron Post-Championship CLE from here on out. If the team stays together I'm believing we'll see a concerted effort on LBJ's part to get KLove and Kyrie even MORE involved - especially KLove.

When that happens LeBron James will be even MORE Bird-Like.

I think this argument is somewhat flawed though.  Lebron is too mechanical to me.  The same can be said ab out Bird playing today if he was healthier physically.  Bird's mechanics where a thing of beauty. Seeing him pull up and shoot the ball and pass with better health would beat lebron even worse.

Health was Bird's biggest downfall. Lebron has more issues than that. 

You are basically saying if LEbron was a better basketball player he'd beat Bird. But if Bird was better he'd beat Lebron.  I think their games Bird was better.  It was mainly the times and both players aren't optimally healthy for different reasons.

Lebron is too much of a miracle of science. He's on too many roids, the rules cater to him etc which hinders his game and his ability to get better as a player.   Where Bird wasn't enough a miracle of science in ways.  He was more self made and was more fighting against other obstacles.  Bird relied on dirty tactics himself to overcome those things.  It was coming from opposite sides of the spectrum though.

See, here's where it bothers me.

LeBron James has NEVER been proven to be on ANY kind of steroids. Sure - he's 6'8" and 260, but TBH that's no different from ME towering over many of my peers at 6'4".

It is as if "some" think of him as - unnatural. It reeks of something that I simply don't want to go there on.

Some in society simply cannot accept that LeBron James has gifts given by God. We should stop the steroids talk. It makes this VERY intelligent Blog look small.

And I don't see ANYTHING "mechanical" in LeBron James' game. You're not giving him enough credit for his basketball mind.

But this is CelticsBlog so I get it.

#DiehardGreenbloodedCelticsfanlovingLeBronJamesANDbasketball

[walker834]

LeBron is passing Larry Legend in nearly every statistical category with exception of RPG.

It's incredible to know that Larry - at SF, no less - averaged 10 RPG.

Larry had that innate ability to make those PLAYS, though...who can forget the "Steal by Bird?"

It's as if Larry was ALWAYS 2-3 steps ahead of his opponents..like Larry was in The Matrix.

I think LeBron can and will reach this level soon - if he doesn't get injured and I hope he doesn't. He gets by on a lot of physical play and over-powering his opponents right now but he certainly does have a bright mind. He doesn't always reach that "Zone" though. I've seen flashes of this (him tip-toeing the sidelines for the winning bucket in the Washington series a few years ago).

In just this GSW series alone he carried CLE and did not falter. Additionally, his play seemed to allow Kyrie to be extremely productive as well.

It will be AMAZING to see LeBron making the SAME PLAYS as Larry Legend one day. He shows flashes of it even now. It seemed as if Larry did not make his greatest plays until later in his career.

Larry just had that INNATE ability....a gift. I don't think you can teach these things. God made Larry and tossed the mold, seriously. I believe LeBron has it too but we see him physically over-powering his opponents so much.

I think it will be VERY interesting to see the Relaxed LeBron Post-Championship CLE from here on out. If the team stays together I'm believing we'll see a concerted effort on LBJ's part to get KLove and Kyrie even MORE involved - especially KLove.

When that happens LeBron James will be even MORE Bird-Like.

I think this argument is somewhat flawed though.  Lebron is too mechanical to me.  The same can be said ab out Bird playing today if he was healthier physically.  Bird's mechanics where a thing of beauty. Seeing him pull up and shoot the ball and pass with better health would beat lebron even worse.

Health was Bird's biggest downfall. Lebron has more issues than that. 

You are basically saying if LEbron was a better basketball player he'd beat Bird. But if Bird was better he'd beat Lebron.  I think their games Bird was better.  It was mainly the times and both players aren't optimally healthy for different reasons.

Lebron is too much of a miracle of science. He's on too many roids, the rules cater to him etc which hinders his game and his ability to get better as a player.   Where Bird wasn't enough a miracle of science in ways.  He was more self made and was more fighting against other obstacles.  Bird relied on dirty tactics himself to overcome those things.  It was coming from opposite sides of the spectrum though.

See, here's where it bothers me.

LeBron James has NEVER been proven to be on ANY kind of steroids. Sure - he's 6'8" and 260, but TBH that's no different from ME towering over many of my peers at 6'4".

It is as if "some" think of him as - unnatural. It reeks of something that I simply don't want to go there on.

Some in society simply cannot accept that LeBron James has gifts given by God. We should stop the steroids talk. It makes this VERY intelligent Blog look small.

And I don't see ANYTHING "mechanical" in LeBron James' game. You're not giving him enough credit for his basketball mind.

But this is CelticsBlog so I get it.

#DiehardGreenbloodedCelticsfanlovingLeBronJamesANDbasketball

But either way he's too bulky and mechanical where Bird would be doing things he couldnt compete with.  I think he is on steroids or some enhancements. Too much.  Doctors haven't gotten the prescription right with him.

If you take away all that stuff.  Birds health and Lebron as their optimal levels. I think Bird is a better player and more naturally gifted.  Lebron can try all he wants he'll never be the shooter or unselfish smart passer bird was.  He might have the stats but they are inflated.  They don't flow as well within the game.

This is the argument for or against steroids anyways because I think Lebron has been able to kind of over compensate for his flaws by just making himself so big and strong.

There is some argument that medicine is good in some way but every doctor will say it's about finding the right prescription.  I think Lebron just abuses it to overcompensate for his flaws as a player.

Steroids in general are bad.  He exercises and he just bulks up at twice the rate of the normal person.

[MaxAMillion]

Bird is not close to James as a defender. That is what pushes James ahead. Bird basically played a rover defensive position because his on ball defense was suspect. There has never been a player in the modern era who could impact a game in all facets like James. That block he made at the end of the game was just one more example.

James one weakness is shooting. That is why his scoring can come and go....but his ability to impact every game is second to none. I think James is now the best small forward in history.

[GreenFaith1819]

LeBron is passing Larry Legend in nearly every statistical category with exception of RPG.

It's incredible to know that Larry - at SF, no less - averaged 10 RPG.

Larry had that innate ability to make those PLAYS, though...who can forget the "Steal by Bird?"

It's as if Larry was ALWAYS 2-3 steps ahead of his opponents..like Larry was in The Matrix.

I think LeBron can and will reach this level soon - if he doesn't get injured and I hope he doesn't. He gets by on a lot of physical play and over-powering his opponents right now but he certainly does have a bright mind. He doesn't always reach that "Zone" though. I've seen flashes of this (him tip-toeing the sidelines for the winning bucket in the Washington series a few years ago).

In just this GSW series alone he carried CLE and did not falter. Additionally, his play seemed to allow Kyrie to be extremely productive as well.

It will be AMAZING to see LeBron making the SAME PLAYS as Larry Legend one day. He shows flashes of it even now. It seemed as if Larry did not make his greatest plays until later in his career.

Larry just had that INNATE ability....a gift. I don't think you can teach these things. God made Larry and tossed the mold, seriously. I believe LeBron has it too but we see him physically over-powering his opponents so much.

I think it will be VERY interesting to see the Relaxed LeBron Post-Championship CLE from here on out. If the team stays together I'm believing we'll see a concerted effort on LBJ's part to get KLove and Kyrie even MORE involved - especially KLove.

When that happens LeBron James will be even MORE Bird-Like.

I think this argument is somewhat flawed though.  Lebron is too mechanical to me.  The same can be said ab out Bird playing today if he was healthier physically.  Bird's mechanics where a thing of beauty. Seeing him pull up and shoot the ball and pass with better health would beat lebron even worse.

Health was Bird's biggest downfall. Lebron has more issues than that. 

You are basically saying if LEbron was a better basketball player he'd beat Bird. But if Bird was better he'd beat Lebron.  I think their games Bird was better.  It was mainly the times and both players aren't optimally healthy for different reasons.

Lebron is too much of a miracle of science. He's on too many roids, the rules cater to him etc which hinders his game and his ability to get better as a player.   Where Bird wasn't enough a miracle of science in ways.  He was more self made and was more fighting against other obstacles.  Bird relied on dirty tactics himself to overcome those things.  It was coming from opposite sides of the spectrum though.

See, here's where it bothers me.

LeBron James has NEVER been proven to be on ANY kind of steroids. Sure - he's 6'8" and 260, but TBH that's no different from ME towering over many of my peers at 6'4".

It is as if "some" think of him as - unnatural. It reeks of something that I simply don't want to go there on.

Some in society simply cannot accept that LeBron James has gifts given by God. We should stop the steroids talk. It makes this VERY intelligent Blog look small.

And I don't see ANYTHING "mechanical" in LeBron James' game. You're not giving him enough credit for his basketball mind.

But this is CelticsBlog so I get it.

#DiehardGreenbloodedCelticsfanlovingLeBronJamesANDbasketball

But either way he's too bulky and mechanical where Bird would be doing things he couldnt compete with.  I think he is on steroids or some enhancements. Too much.  Doctors haven't gotten the prescription right with him.

If you take away all that stuff.  Birds health and Lebron as their optimal levels. I think Bird is a better player and more naturally gifted.  Lebron can try all he wants he'll never be the shooter or unselfish smart passer bird was.  He might have the stats but they are inflated.  They don't flow as well within the game.

Yeah and Bird was too slow of foot  - hence his ONLY 3 2nd team defensive awards.

LeBron has 5 so far - all 1st Team.

See where this is going?

It makes you look small to not give LBJ credit for his accomplishments while attributing his gifts to drug use - while attributing Larry's gifts to "hard work and dedication."

I wish you could see yourself post.

[flybono]

It's obvious many on this board are Celtic trolls.
This discussion has brought out the real Celtic fans and to my dismay there are not that many.

James couldn't hold Larry's jock.

[walker834]

I'm basically saying is if naturally both players were playing at their optimal level though.  I think bird is the better player.  He is smarter, better shooter etc.  He's basically a better, smarter, scrappier, better passer, version of Durant without the leaping.

Lebron can not match that at his best either imo.  He might be more similar to jordan physically but he does not have the smarts or any of that. He's a smart player but not nearly on those guys levels.   

It's basically an argument of health vs smarts.