Sean Deveny- Cs intent on pursuing Barnes

[Beat LA]

Teams are intent on flushing Barnes pockets with money, because they believe he could step up into the 2nd/3rd role, but I'm not too sure about that. I think Barnes will have an impressive steady career, but I think ultimately, he's going to be relegated to the small ball 4, and his inconsistencies at offense/defense won't be such a red flag at the 3.

I saw that Barnes has been a consistent contributor in the Finals, and the playoffs. But another concerning thing that I've witnessed personally from the eye test, is Barnes inability to pass out of tough double teams, and making the right play at the right time. I think its also steadfast become another issue is Barnes weak ball handling, passing, and overall basketball IQ. He's so athletic, and so young, you just have to give him a lengthy and wealthy contract in hopes of aspirations of his ceiling reached, but its a very tough and vague road that you're going to be taking, if desperate teams even offer anywhere near 20-23 million.

While I'm not sure that I agree in terms of his intelligence on the court, I definitely concur with your assessment of his Bradley-like skills regarding ball handling and passing.  What I do like about him is his post game.  During that OKC series, he was being guarded by Waiters for significant stretches, yet they never got him the ball.  Honestly, it's like at times they simply forget about him out there, but when they get it to him with someone like Dellavedova or Kyrie guarding him because Lebron and Shumpert/Smith or whoever are trying to stop Curry and Thompson, that's when they become nearly unbeatable, because it really is pick your poison out there at that point.

All that said, I do like the guy, but I wouldn't even make him an offer, and not for the reason of Crowder being better than him.  That's ridiculous, imo.  Crowder has nowhere near the offensive ability of Barnes, nor Jimmy Butler, especially because both of those guys can post up.  All Serena Williams can do is spot up and straight line drives, and he never gets to the line, either, which is why it's truly laughable when someone like Sean Grande says that Butler wouldn't be too much of an upgrade over Serena.  Really? Has he never seen both of them play before, lol?

[max215]

Barnes would fit the Celts time line and he's the kind of player virtually every team needs now. A bit overpriced at the max but probably worth it.

This.

[pearljammer10]

Cs aren't giving a 11 and 4 guy 20 mil a year regardless of what they think his potential is. I'll admit it would be fun to see what he could do on a team without Curry, Klay and Dray but I'd rather spend elsewhere and be more patient.

[crimson_stallion]

He's been the 4th or 5th banana on that team for a couple of years now. He's not a bad player but I don't think he's the type of player based off the money is asking. I'd sTay away from him.

That's a fair call.

I think you have to consider though that you have Steph Curry (an MVP calibre player) and Klay Thompson (a perennial all-star), and Draymond Green (who looks like he's going to be a perennial All-Star). 

After those three guys I think you could argue back and forth who is the next best player out of Barnes and Iggy.

Food for thought though - Barnes has had a usage rate of 16.3% over his four year career in Golden State, and his usage rate last season was 15.9%.  That's lower then last year's numbers for Marcus Smart (17.4%) and Terry Rozier (17.7), and only barely higher then R.j. Hunter (17.7).  The guy is getting very little opportunity buried behind Curry and Thompson
  With a bigger role in the offense, there is potential for his scoring to increase significantly.

There's also the fact that he has excellent physical tools for an NBA SF (6'8" height, 6'11" wingspan, 8'5" standing reach, excellent athleticism) and that he shot at least 46% / 38% / 70% for two straight seasons now, so (beyond his general inability to get to the line) he's a pretty efficient scorer and a quality defender.

Finally there is the fact that when he starts next season he'll only be 24 years old (only a year or two older then the likes of Buddy Hield and Kris Dunn) so he still has considerable upside on both ends of the court.

Will he take a huge leap moving forward in a new environment?  To be honest I think he probably won't, but the possibility is there.  It's a relatively low risk since at the very least you have a two-way player who can defend multiple positions and stretch the floor, so worst case is that you are overpaying for a quality starter.  Not optimal, but not not really a nightmare scenario either.

I'm in the camp that says "probably don't do it" - but if we did, I could understand and wouldn't hate it.   

 

[crimson_stallion]

Teams are intent on flushing Barnes pockets with money, because they believe he could step up into the 2nd/3rd role, but I'm not too sure about that. I think Barnes will have an impressive steady career, but I think ultimately, he's going to be relegated to the small ball 4, and his inconsistencies at offense/defense won't be such a red flag at the 3.

I saw that Barnes has been a consistent contributor in the Finals, and the playoffs. But another concerning thing that I've witnessed personally from the eye test, is Barnes inability to pass out of tough double teams, and making the right play at the right time. I think its also steadfast become another issue is Barnes weak ball handling, passing, and overall basketball IQ. He's so athletic, and so young, you just have to give him a lengthy and wealthy contract in hopes of aspirations of his ceiling reached, but its a very tough and vague road that you're going to be taking, if desperate teams even offer anywhere near 20-23 million.

While I'm not sure that I agree in terms of his intelligence on the court, I definitely concur with your assessment of his Bradley-like skills regarding ball handling and passing.  What I do like about him is his post game.  During that OKC series, he was being guarded by Waiters for significant stretches, yet they never got him the ball.  Honestly, it's like at times they simply forget about him out there, but when they get it to him with someone like Dellavedova or Kyrie guarding him because Lebron and Shumpert/Smith or whoever are trying to stop Curry and Thompson, that's when they become nearly unbeatable, because it really is pick your poison out there at that point.

All that said, I do like the guy, but I wouldn't even make him an offer, and not for the reason of Crowder being better than him.  That's ridiculous, imo.  Crowder has nowhere near the offensive ability of Barnes, nor Jimmy Butler, especially because both of those guys can post up.  All Serena Williams can do is spot up and straight line drives, and he never gets to the line, either, which is why it's truly laughable when someone like Sean Grande says that Butler wouldn't be too much of an upgrade over Serena.  Really? Has he never seen both of them play before, lol?

While I agree with most of your assessment, the free throw part is very false.

Free Throw rates last year:

Jimmy Butler:  45.9%
Harrison Barnes:  21.2%
Jae Crowder:  29.4% 

Crowder over his career has gotten to the line around the same rate as Barnes, and last year actually significantly higher.

Butler is, of course, on a whole other level.  Anyone who claims Butler isn't much of an upgrade over Crowder probably also is one of those people who still believes the world is flat.  Totally irrational.

[notthebowler]

Cs aren't giving a 11 and 4 guy 20 mil a year regardless of what they think his potential is. I'll admit it would be fun to see what he could do on a team without Curry, Klay and Dray but I'd rather spend elsewhere and be more patient.

I agree completely. Don't forget, Barnes is drawing his opponent's weakest defender every night. That won't be the case if he's brought in here to be a star. And if you aren't expecting him to be a star, you don't give him a max contract.

I would bet money that this time next year Barnes and Biyombo will be viewed as the two worst contracts in the league. They are solid role players who are going to get superstar money.

[loco_91]

It's all about *opportunity cost*.

You have to do something with your cap space. If the C's can get someone better with their cap room, they should. If they can't? Barnes is pretty good, and he'll be overpaid compared with other guys on our roster, but we could do a lot worse.

[RockinRyA]

Cs aren't giving a 11 and 4 guy 20 mil a year regardless of what they think his potential is. I'll admit it would be fun to see what he could do on a team without Curry, Klay and Dray but I'd rather spend elsewhere and be more patient.

I agree completely. Don't forget, Barnes is drawing his opponent's weakest defender every night. That won't be the case if he's brought in here to be a star. And if you aren't expecting him to be a star, you don't give him a max contract.

I would bet money that this time next year Barnes and Biyombo will be viewed as the two worst contracts in the league. They are solid role players who are going to get superstar money.

I dont think Lebron is Cleveland's weakest defender.

[saltlover]

People who knock him for not putting up monster numbers seem to ignore the point that he's also been a key member of one of the greatest teams of all time.

Jeff Green has never had the kind of success that Barnes has enjoyed in GS. IMO unlike Green, Barnes' game is conducive to winning Basketball. Barnes is durable, can defend multiple positions, move the ball effectively and stretch the floor with his 3 ball. He'd fit our culture like a glove. He wouldn't need to give us 25 PPG, 17-19 PPG with all of his intangibles would be huge for this team.

I pretty much agree with this, and am on Team Barnes.

The one thing I will question, however is whether this team needs another super hybrid role-player, or really needs to get an alpha scorer (preferably one who isn't a defensive liability).  That's not meant to be a knock on Barnes -- I think he's incredibly versatile matchup wise, but he doesn't seem to be a guy who you can look to for a huge scoring night even occasionally.  We saw vs the Hawks that IT needed someone to step up and be a release valve when teams overload their defense against him.  Can Barnes be that number 2?  If Barnes can't, does he prevent us from getting someone who can?  Rather than calling him Jeff Green, I like to think of Barnes as Jerebko with (a lot) better defense.  But is that what we need?

On the plus side, he turned 24 two weeks ago, so it's easy to project further growth in his game.  Maybe he can step into that #2 role offensively on a team that needs him to do so.

I agree with your points about needing an alpha scorer.  I don't think Barnes is it.  not even close.  he'll frustrate fans even more than Green because he'll be getting paid well over double for less scoring

Yeah -- I guess I'm just more open to the possibility that Harrison Barnes can score.  In college, for example, Barnes scored 23.3 points per 40 minutes in his final (sophomore) year, and was the third-leading scorer in the ACC on a per-game basis, and second in total points.  Jeff Green, by comparison, scored 14.7 points per 40 as a sophomore and 17.1 per 40 as a junior.  So while Barnes hasn't shown up as a scorer in the NBA, he is on a team with one of the best scorers in NBA history, and another very good one as well.  And he was a scorer in college.  It's not a certainty that he'll become that guy, but I'd say he's got a lot more potential to do so than Jeff Green had.

[notthebowler]

Cs aren't giving a 11 and 4 guy 20 mil a year regardless of what they think his potential is. I'll admit it would be fun to see what he could do on a team without Curry, Klay and Dray but I'd rather spend elsewhere and be more patient.

I agree completely. Don't forget, Barnes is drawing his opponent's weakest defender every night. That won't be the case if he's brought in here to be a star. And if you aren't expecting him to be a star, you don't give him a max contract.

I would bet money that this time next year Barnes and Biyombo will be viewed as the two worst contracts in the league. They are solid role players who are going to get superstar money.

I dont think Lebron is Cleveland's weakest defender.

Fair enough, let me re-phrase to better make my point: when Barnes, Klay and Steph are manning the 3 perimeter positions, Barnes is the least of their opponents concerns. I would argue he is almost an afterthought to the opponent. LeBron may be matched up with him at times, but he is focused on helping on Steph and Klay. The Cavs are not drawing up a defensive game plan for Harrison Barnes, nor is any other opponent.

He's been adequate while his opponents have practically ignored him. "Ignored" is an exaggeration, but not much of one. I just think giving this guy a max contract would wreck the rebuild.

[dreamgreen]

Barnes would be a terrible waste of cap space, he is no where near a max player.

[greece66]

His metrics are worryingly similar to those of Jeff Green; will Barnes be able to maintain the same eFG% if his FGA goes up? I am also not very excited about his lack of rebounding and blocking; I understand they are far from his primary concern but 5.9 TRB and 0.3 BLK per 36 mins is mediocre even for a SF. Another (tho lesser) concern is his turnover pct: this season he was 9th in the League.

http://bkref.com/tiny/DN7Q2

Having said this, he is probably worth the risk given the rise of the cap and the relatively small number of quality FAs. I also think that whether Barnes stays in GSW or moves to a new team,he will go on to have a good NBA career, probably with some All Star appearances.

But my gut feeling is that Ainge will pass. iirc he has never offered a max to a player outside the top-20.

[BadNewsBarnes]

Unlike Green, Barnes can actually shoot, defend, and compete for boards. He's much more similar to Marvin Williams.

And so can Crowder.

I've never quite understood the fascination with Barnes on this board. He's a nice piece without a doubt and I think he's a good player for anyone to have. But the Cs already have a guy who has very similar production, same role, is just as good defensively (if not better), a locker room leader and is only two years older for a LOT cheaper than Barnes would cost.

How many more wins would Barnes bring to the Celtics?

This is where I am.  I like him and I think he's a better player than Crowder but not so much so that I would be willing to give him a max contract. 

The only way I could see Danny making a move like this is would be if he plans on using Crowder as a trading chip in some type of monster deal. 

[timpiker]

DA will not go out on a limb to pay a 4th player max money.  DA does not take too many risks.

[slamtheking]

People who knock him for not putting up monster numbers seem to ignore the point that he's also been a key member of one of the greatest teams of all time.

Jeff Green has never had the kind of success that Barnes has enjoyed in GS. IMO unlike Green, Barnes' game is conducive to winning Basketball. Barnes is durable, can defend multiple positions, move the ball effectively and stretch the floor with his 3 ball. He'd fit our culture like a glove. He wouldn't need to give us 25 PPG, 17-19 PPG with all of his intangibles would be huge for this team.

I pretty much agree with this, and am on Team Barnes.

The one thing I will question, however is whether this team needs another super hybrid role-player, or really needs to get an alpha scorer (preferably one who isn't a defensive liability).  That's not meant to be a knock on Barnes -- I think he's incredibly versatile matchup wise, but he doesn't seem to be a guy who you can look to for a huge scoring night even occasionally.  We saw vs the Hawks that IT needed someone to step up and be a release valve when teams overload their defense against him.  Can Barnes be that number 2?  If Barnes can't, does he prevent us from getting someone who can?  Rather than calling him Jeff Green, I like to think of Barnes as Jerebko with (a lot) better defense.  But is that what we need?

On the plus side, he turned 24 two weeks ago, so it's easy to project further growth in his game.  Maybe he can step into that #2 role offensively on a team that needs him to do so.

I agree with your points about needing an alpha scorer.  I don't think Barnes is it.  not even close.  he'll frustrate fans even more than Green because he'll be getting paid well over double for less scoring

Yeah -- I guess I'm just more open to the possibility that Harrison Barnes can score.  In college, for example, Barnes scored 23.3 points per 40 minutes in his final (sophomore) year, and was the third-leading scorer in the ACC on a per-game basis, and second in total points.  Jeff Green, by comparison, scored 14.7 points per 40 as a sophomore and 17.1 per 40 as a junior.  So while Barnes hasn't shown up as a scorer in the NBA, he is on a team with one of the best scorers in NBA history, and another very good one as well.  And he was a scorer in college.  It's not a certainty that he'll become that guy, but I'd say he's got a lot more potential to do so than Jeff Green had.

I understand where you're coming from.  I just don't think that's enough to get hopes up that he's being held back by his teammates and will flourish elsewhere.  Same thoughts used to apply to Green when he was playing in OKC with Durant, Westbrook and even Harden.  Green had an occasional scoring binge and should have been able to do it more often.  I'd feel more confident in Barnes if he had an occasional 30+ point game like Green used to.