Interesting Forsberg Article on Maker

[BDeCosta26]

I dont think you are in a position to say that its not hard to choose between those types of guys.

Why not?  To my untrained eye, regardless of how old someone is, you take the guy who can actually play who also has the work ethic, motor, and intelligence to succeed, as opposed to drafting a guy because he has better measurables, etc., imo.  I just don't think that you should ever draft someone hoping that they'll learn how to dribble or work hard, especially because you can't teach the latter.  The guy is either a hard worker or he's not.  Case in point - James Young vs Rodney Hood.  Sure, Young might have better measurables, but he can't even dribble and there's simply nothing upstairs with him; and yet, despite having more information on the two than fans are privy to, Ainge takes the guy who doesn't work hard and dogs it on the court . Huh?

Ainge has a long history of taking the "hard-working" "high motor", "safe" kind of pick. If you wanna nitpick Ainge's drafting skills (Which you LOVE to do with 20-20 Hindsight, as if your supposed to hit on every single pick), I don't think trying to say that he doesn't pick hard working guys is it. In the past few years he's taken:

Bradley, Sullinger, Melo, Olynyk, Smart, Young, Rozier, Hunter and Mickey.

Bradley, Olynyk, Smart, Rozier, Hunter and Mickey are all guys that had unquestioned drive and were/are considered hard working. That's 6 out of 9 guys.

Look, you can't make "motor" or "work ethic" the only thing you base draft decisions on. Some guys have questioned motors and work ethics that come around. Some guys are very valuable without strong work ethics. Sometimes you have to take guys you consider to be "projects". Guys you have to teach to become NBA caliber players. Guys who have unrealized potential that you want to extract. Not every guy can be a Marcus Smart as far as mindset goes.

It's crazy. Ainge takes a guy like Olynyk and people say "Jesus, why does he always have to take the "safe" pick, the "high-motor" guy, he has to swing for the fences!". Then he takes a guy like James Young and you say "Why would Ainge take these multi-year project guys with questionable work ethics! How hard is it to take a guy who "works hard?!"".

When you draft outside of the top 3-5 guys, you have to be open to taking all kinds of players. Your NOT going to hit on every single pick. I swear it's almost like you expect Ainge to draft a star player every time, no matter if it's the 3rd pick or the 30th.

[RockinRyA]

I dont think you are in a position to say that its not hard to choose between those types of guys.

Why not?  To my untrained eye, regardless of how old someone is, you take the guy who can actually play who also has the work ethic, motor, and intelligence to succeed, as opposed to drafting a guy because he has better measurables, etc., imo.  I just don't think that you should ever draft someone hoping that they'll learn how to dribble or work hard, especially because you can't teach the latter.  The guy is either a hard worker or he's not.  Case in point - James Young vs Rodney Hood.  Sure, Young might have better measurables, but he can't even dribble and there's simply nothing upstairs with him; and yet, despite having more information on the two than fans are privy to, Ainge takes the guy who doesn't work hard and dogs it on the court . Huh?

"To my untrained eye"

I rest my case.

[Beat LA]

I dont think you are in a position to say that its not hard to choose between those types of guys.

Why not?  To my untrained eye, regardless of how old someone is, you take the guy who can actually play who also has the work ethic, motor, and intelligence to succeed, as opposed to drafting a guy because he has better measurables, etc., imo.  I just don't think that you should ever draft someone hoping that they'll learn how to dribble or work hard, especially because you can't teach the latter.  The guy is either a hard worker or he's not.  Case in point - James Young vs Rodney Hood.  Sure, Young might have better measurables, but he can't even dribble and there's simply nothing upstairs with him; and yet, despite having more information on the two than fans are privy to, Ainge takes the guy who doesn't work hard and dogs it on the court . Huh?

"To my untrained eye"

I rest my case.

I mean, I'm a fan, so...

[Beat LA]

I dont think you are in a position to say that its not hard to choose between those types of guys.

Why not?  To my untrained eye, regardless of how old someone is, you take the guy who can actually play who also has the work ethic, motor, and intelligence to succeed, as opposed to drafting a guy because he has better measurables, etc., imo.  I just don't think that you should ever draft someone hoping that they'll learn how to dribble or work hard, especially because you can't teach the latter.  The guy is either a hard worker or he's not.  Case in point - James Young vs Rodney Hood.  Sure, Young might have better measurables, but he can't even dribble and there's simply nothing upstairs with him; and yet, despite having more information on the two than fans are privy to, Ainge takes the guy who doesn't work hard and dogs it on the court . Huh?

Ainge has a long history of taking the "hard-working" "high motor", "safe" kind of pick. If you wanna nitpick Ainge's drafting skills (Which you LOVE to do with 20-20 Hindsight, as if your supposed to hit on every single pick), I don't think trying to say that he doesn't pick hard working guys is it. In the past few years he's taken:

Bradley, Sullinger, Melo, Olynyk, Smart, Young, Rozier, Hunter and Mickey.

Bradley, Olynyk, Smart, Rozier, Hunter and Mickey are all guys that had unquestioned drive and were/are considered hard working. That's 6 out of 9 guys.

Look, you can't make "motor" or "work ethic" the only thing you base draft decisions on. Some guys have questioned motors and work ethics that come around. Some guys are very valuable without strong work ethics. Sometimes you have to take guys you consider to be "projects". Guys you have to teach to become NBA caliber players. Guys who have unrealized potential that you want to extract. Not every guy can be a Marcus Smart as far as mindset goes.

It's crazy. Ainge takes a guy like Olynyk and people say "Jesus, why does he always have to take the "safe" pick, the "high-motor" guy, he has to swing for the fences!". Then he takes a guy like James Young and you say "Why would Ainge take these multi-year project guys with questionable work ethics! How hard is it to take a guy who "works hard?!"".

When you draft outside of the top 3-5 guys, you have to be open to taking all kinds of players. Your NOT going to hit on every single pick. I swear it's almost like you expect Ainge to draft a star player every time, no matter if it's the 3rd pick or the 30th.

Right, except that that's not what I said.  What I was trying to say is that stats are only a third of the battle, at best, imo, with the other two components being skill and what's upstairs when it comes to drafting, imo.  It's great if the guy is a hard worker, but if they have no talent, nothing is going to come from that selection.  Conversely, if the guy has all the talent in the world but no work ethic, that, too, is a waste of a pick.  See what I'm saying?

And I'm not expecting Ainge to draft a star with every pick because that's largely impossible and every draft is different, but I don't think it's too much to ask for him to find a contributor, ie, and actual player, when he makes a selection, do you?

As far as the Olynyk pick goes, btw, I don't think that people were upset because he was deemed a 'safe' pick.  I think the reason that fans didn't approve was because you could see that the guy had very little upside.  I'm good with making safe picks - that's what you should do, imo - but perhaps my definition of safe in this context is different from other people?  What's yours?

Btw, what use does taking players without good work habits serve?  So that the coach can point to them as examples of what not to do, lol?

[obnoxiousmime]

These guys are so young that sometimes a guy who isn't labeled as especially hard-working becomes more mature and develops his game, a la Draymond Green. I read an article where he admits that he didn't necessarily work as hard before he became a professional, when he realized what it would take to be successful. That's got to be something extremely hard to scout for, but it just goes to show that the draft can be a real crapshoot sometimes.

Regarding Ainge's own history taking projects vs hard-working low ceiling guys, I think that he's shown himself to not stick to any particular bias towards one or the other. It's possible for someone who isn't the greatest worker to just float by on talent and still be worth taking though, because that player on 75% effort is still a hell of a lot better than an extremely hard-working but low-ceiling player. Do you want a team full of those types? Probably not, because then you get the Houston Rockets. A team with legitimate title aspirations can tolerate players like that if the rest of the team is composed of mature guys though.

The only bias Ainge seems to have is against foreign big men! That's another thread topic however...

[LilRip]

I wouldn't hate drafting Maker, but only if we don't draft Bender. Maybe if we picked up Brown or Hield with the #3, I'd be fine with getting a project at 16.

[Celtics4ever]

Regarding Ainge's own history taking projects vs hard-working low ceiling guys, I think that he's shown himself to not stick to any particular bias towards one or the other

He has taken a lot of proven guys whose stock fell because of a flaw during this tenture as GM.   I do not think he has taking many projects, Melo comes to mind, how did that work for him?

[Sketch5]

wouldn't take him at 16.  if there at 23, ok.  would prefer at 31 or 35 but could live with 23.  at 16, I'd prefer someone who's more of a sure thing like Sabonis, Valentine or someone else at that talent tier.

In this draft I'm not sure anyone out side maybe first five or eight could be considered a sure thing.

But with the third pick you can take some one that is closer to being that sure thing, and then take a chance on the 16th pick, and then pick BPA after that.

Maker and Bender seem like they have similar skill sets, Maker could be a better defender and Bender outside shooter. But I'd much rather take Maker at 16 then Bender at 3.  Plus I love Makers attitude. He's a D fist guy, he's intense, at least from the video's I've watched. And he doesn't care about being #1, he wants to just get better. And unlike that other Big Man project from a couple years ago, he seems to get Basketball.

[Granath]

Regarding Ainge's own history taking projects vs hard-working low ceiling guys, I think that he's shown himself to not stick to any particular bias towards one or the other

He has taken a lot of proven guys whose stock fell because of a flaw during this tenture as GM.   I do not think he has taking many projects, Melo comes to mind, how did that work for him?

Al Jefferson worked out quite nicely.

[chilidawg]

Regarding Ainge's own history taking projects vs hard-working low ceiling guys, I think that he's shown himself to not stick to any particular bias towards one or the other

He has taken a lot of proven guys whose stock fell because of a flaw during this tenture as GM.   I do not think he has taking many projects, Melo comes to mind, how did that work for him?

Al Jefferson worked out quite nicely.

Kendrick Perkins, Avery Bradley on the plus side.  Kendrick Brown on the minus size.  You have to realize that the draft is a crapshoot.  You can't focus on one pick and say high upside guys don't work out.

[hwangjini_1]

These guys are so young that sometimes a guy who isn't labeled as especially hard-working becomes more mature and develops his game, a la Draymond Green. I read an article where he admits that he didn't necessarily work as hard before he became a professional, when he realized what it would take to be successful. That's got to be something extremely hard to scout for, but it just goes to show that the draft can be a real crapshoot sometimes.

Regarding Ainge's own history taking projects vs hard-working low ceiling guys, I think that he's shown himself to not stick to any particular bias towards one or the other. It's possible for someone who isn't the greatest worker to just float by on talent and still be worth taking though, because that player on 75% effort is still a hell of a lot better than an extremely hard-working but low-ceiling player. Do you want a team full of those types? Probably not, because then you get the Houston Rockets. A team with legitimate title aspirations can tolerate players like that if the rest of the team is composed of mature guys though.

The only bias Ainge seems to have is against foreign big men! That's another thread topic however...

PM Boris badenov on this. He wrote a great post that was well researched and showed how this is a CB myth. Using past drafts and availability of talent as his measures, Boris makes a great case that disproves this myth.

This is akin to the common myth on doc not playing rookies because he hates rookies. The evidence just doesn't support the premise.

[hwangjini_1]

Regarding Ainge's own history taking projects vs hard-working low ceiling guys, I think that he's shown himself to not stick to any particular bias towards one or the other

He has taken a lot of proven guys whose stock fell because of a flaw during this tenture as GM.   I do not think he has taking many projects, Melo comes to mind, how did that work for him?

Al Jefferson worked out quite nicely.

Kendrick Perkins, Avery Bradley on the plus side.  Kendrick Brown on the minus size.  You have to realize that the draft is a crapshoot.  You can't focus on one pick and say high upside guys don't work out.

Just as important is to always keep in mind the location of the pick. Many of and he's picks feel in the later part of the draft until recently.

[flybono]

Maker is a top 10 pick

[MJohnnyboy]

Regarding Ainge's own history taking projects vs hard-working low ceiling guys, I think that he's shown himself to not stick to any particular bias towards one or the other

He has taken a lot of proven guys whose stock fell because of a flaw during this tenture as GM.   I do not think he has taking many projects, Melo comes to mind, how did that work for him?

Al Jefferson worked out quite nicely.

Kendrick Perkins, Avery Bradley on the plus side.  Kendrick Brown on the minus size.  You have to realize that the draft is a crapshoot.  You can't focus on one pick and say high upside guys don't work out.

Danny Ainge didn't select Kedrick Brown. Chris Wallace did.