UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video

[Beat LA]

Bender was playing in FIBA world competitions at the ages of 15, 16, 17 years old.
And he's playing in a pro league against grown men, for the most parts at the ages of 17-18.

The competitions you are talking about are youth competitions ... everyone there is 15 16 17 year old! BTW i`m still looking for the competitions he dominated like a lot of posters keepe repeating but i can`t find any ......

And there are many 17-18 olds playing pro basketball in tougher European leagues

You mean the least impressive 40 point game this side of Amida Brimah where he scored 43 points against guys who looked like they were just paid to put on a uniform and 'look pretty' (sarcasm).  Admittedly, this is my ignorance showing, so can someone explain to me who he's playing against, here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbrXB3Lcung

I kid, I kid.  I did like the right handed hook shot and he did make a few great passes, so that's good, but still, muh muh muh my Bologna

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4_G7HHJ0GE

I can`t help you much about bologna. It`s a game from last season euroleague`s youth tournament. Macabi finished last in the group (Cedevita, Brose,Stella Azzura) and played Bologna for the 7nth place "final". I tried to find stats and rosters to have a better idea (this year for example bologna`s roster is two years younger than Bender unless in this case the age difference doesn`t matter)
Found it

bologna:
http://www.adidasngt.com/u18/competition/teams/showteam?clubcode=JVI&seasoncode=JT14#!roster

stats:
http://www.adidasngt.com/u18/game-center/statistics?mode=Leaders&entity=Players&seasonmode=Single&seasoncode=JT14&cat=Score&agg=Accumulated




BTW I`m asking about competitions he dominated not a game every now and then.

Lol, thanks for the info, anyway - TP.

[Beat LA]

Maker also has a nice, albeit developing, right handed jump hook and shows definite signs that he could become at least a good post player as long as he continues to bulk up.  Like Bender, he does need to work on his left hand, but Youtube highlights to Youtube highlights (I know, I know, but it's all we have to go on, lol ), Bender is automatically billed as the more skilled player when it seems to me that Maker is, in fact, more polished, so why is one guy deemed a youtube gimmick while the other is this future Croatian Sensation?  I'd like to believe that we're beyond all of these stereotypes, but the fact that one guy is a white European who is deemed to possess 'tremendous skill' and 'feel for the game', while the other dude was born in Africa (and raised in Australia) and is said to 'lack skill' and needs to 'learn how to play' despite the evidence which would appear to suggest otherwise gives off the impression that such basketball buzzwords and terms have racial undertones.  Or maybe it's just me.  Yeah, it's probably just me .

Maker is definitely not more polished. People have mentioned how Bender does well against his own age group. Well how about we think about how Maker did against his age group? There have been reports from DX as well as interviews such as the Scal one saying he showed very little separation from those guys. That wasn't even college level...

He doesn't have a basketball brain, he'll make the wrong play consistently. Now if you put him in a 1 on 0 environment then yeah his athleticism shines and he's able to show he has a potentially good shot. That however is no use if he can't do it in a 5 on 5 environment. It's the same thing that worries a lot of people about Jaylen Brown or Marquesse Chriss. Athleticism shines in workouts but talent shines in games. Whoever ends up taking Maker is taking on the biggest risk in the entire draft on the 1% chance he turns out to be as good as Noel. Worthy with a 2nd round pick but certainly not a 1st.

Bender on the other hand has the fundamentals to carve out a role player role in any league. That is his floor. His ceiling is being able to be an elite 3 pt shooter, secondary ball handler and effective perimeter and post defender. The thing is that because he has the fundamentals he is far more likely to reach his ceiling

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  If Maker didn't 'have a basketball brain', he wouldn't be able to make great passes like this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ4g58w1QMA

When Poeltl the Turtle makes passes like that, it's because he's 'tremendously skilled, versatile, and intelligent with great vision,' etc., but when Maker does it it equates to him not even having a basketball brain? What he just showed is the definition of tremendous skill, intelligence, and vision, not to mention versatility.  Does he make mistakes?  Sure, everyone does, but, at least to me, even when he does, you can see what he was trying to do, which is invariably the right play.  His game is not based on athleticism - it's based on already a great amount of skill, imo. 

Also, in regards to Bender - no, he does not possess the fundamentals to succeed as far as big men are concerned.  Not even close, imo.  You know who does?  Sabonis.  Yes, he has a shorter wingspan, unfortunately, but as far as playing in the pivot, Sabonis is far ahead of the Croatian James Van Der Beek . He has footwork of which Bender can only dream, actually boxes out, can use either hand on the block, and almost  always keeps the ball high when he rebounds on both ends.  Bender could stand to learn a thing or two from him in regards to these facets of the game, in my estimation, but again, I don't have much to go on as far as Bender is concerned.  I can only tell you what I see .

Btw, didn't everyone want Willie Cauley Stein, who went 6th, last year, primarily because of his quickness, lol, despite the fact that he had demonstrated little skill and sub par rebounding ability while at Kentucky?  If that's all it takes to be a lottery pick these days, even if you have a screw in your foot , why isn't Maker viewed on that same level and as having the same ability, defensively?  He might even be quicker than Stein, and has actual skills, like being able to shoot and make great passes, etc.

So that's one play, I'm hardly going to change my mind from that. The reason I say he has a low basketball IQ is because that's what the scouting reports are and that's what he showed in his games. Everyone will have good moments but you have to weigh the good and bad and take a measured view.

Back when he first declared there was a thread on where he would go. I watched his highlight reel and got caught up like others and said "it's a 3 player draft!"  then I watched the 2nd video in the thread and went "oh..." Maker is not a player who reads the game, he's a player that uses his physical nature to bully others and outreach others and shoot over others. That gap disappears in the NBA so he'll have to learn to read the game. So far ive seen little evidence of that

There are many other examples of him making great reads and passes, it's just that I only put this particular one in that post, so it's not like it was a one time deal.  This is where I disagree with scouting reports and what you say about his basketball iq - guys who can't see nor read the game cannot make anywhere near the level of passes that Maker has shown the ability to manufacture, which is all the more amazing when you consider that he only started playing basketball at 13 .

And as I said, I do weigh the good with the bad, and what his defense, intelligence, passing, rebounding, and motor say to me is that he can contribute across the board even when he's not scoring, and those are the guys you want imo.

As for this 'bullying people given his physical nature', have you seen his frame, lol?  How can he 'bully' anyone?  Besides, if we're going to go down that road of him just being better because he's bigger, why is that same standard not applied to this 43 point performance by Bender in a youth tournament game?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbrXB3Lcung

Btw, what is the second video that you referenced?  I'm pretty sure that I've seen it but do you have a link? 

   

[ederson]

As for this 'bullying people given his physical nature', have you seen his frame, lol?  How can he 'bully' anyone?  Besides, if we're going to go down that road of him just being better because he's bigger, why is that same standard not applied to this 43 point performance by Bender in a youth tournament game?

Because it doesn`t help the cause.... Same way nobody says that in this game most of his opponents are 2 years younger.....

[Celtics4ever]

There are many other examples of him making great reads and passes, it's just that I only put this particular one in that post, so it's not like it was a one time deal.  This is where I disagree with scouting reports and what you say about his basketball iq - guys who can't see nor read the game cannot make anywhere near the level of passes that Maker has shown the ability to manufacture, which is all the more amazing when you consider that he only started playing basketball at 13

His best asset is he is unknown and mysterious.   I seen a guy who can move but struggles once he gets where he is going.   A lot of guys have great basketball IQ, but it does matter what you do once you get where your going.  He seems to completely ignore the fact that he is tall and could benefit from playing close to the basket, how is that good basketball IQ.   It shows me he shuns contact.   His defensive stats have regressed each year, how is that basketball IQ, shouldn't they get better.

As for this 'bullying people given his physical nature', have you seen his frame, lol?  How can he 'bully' anyone?  Besides, if we're going to go down that road of him just being better because he's bigger, why is that same standard not applied to this 43 point performance by Bender in a youth tournament game?

Yeah, he is not capable to bullying guys physically.   In a lot of the clips I 've seen he gets to where he wants to go quite well and wilts because their a defender there.   This claim of him being able to bully players just demonstrates how far out some of this fans are out there.  Pipecleaner sized arms.


Good players play, bad players sit, I have yet to see one plausible explanation for the lack of playing time and glaring lack of production.

If you think Sully is a one trick pony then I'm hardly going to trust your analysis on other players. Conditioning is what holds him back, the ability to go the full round.

Sullinger can't shoot, we have all seen fat guys who can shoot, so there goes your conditioning theory.   He also has a weight problem in addition to his conditioning problem.   One could make a strong arguement that he has character issues.   Who gains weight during the season?   He also is not athletic and the weight and conditioning hurt him even more because he has a less than optimal athletic base.   We know that you do not care about that because you like an even less athletic Bender.  Please name what else is elite at his position.   Scoring?  Nope!   Defense? Nope.   Shooting? Heck NO!  just rebounding.   

I said a role player on a playoff team, not he dominated the post season...

  Nice try what role did he play this post season.  He seemed to facilitate scoring for the other teams when he was in there?   Please tell what role did he play?

The third pick is not something to gamble with which is why you choose the player with the fundamentals. I didn't say he'd rebound as well as Sully, you're creating arguments that don't exist.

And your legitimizing talent that has not lived up on the court.   Bender was not able to play meaningful minutes in a league that is lacking in talent compared to the NBA.  He hid from the NBA combine because he knew it would hurt him.   Look at Exum, he used the same playbook in his draft.   One great game as youth, then hide.  They are hiding for a reason.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/203957/stats/ 

I'm really not bothered if you don't like Bender, but it's frustrating to see you ignore countless arguments that provide evidence of his legitimacy and then spout the same boring nonsense as before. Acknowledging them doesn't mean accepting him as the 3rd pick but it does show to other posters that you can learn new things. At the moment you're basically a toy with set lines going round in circles

Yes, you are or you would not have directly answered.   Have fun hoping Bender is drafted to us and rides in on a pink unicorn.

No stats or playing time, I all see is scouts that harp on potential.   Stats are evidence, lack of PT is evidence.  Hiding is evidence.  Highlight clips are a joke.   I fully acknowledge that he has nice mobility so I am clearly not blind nor one sided.

Why is he hiding?   Because he would lose value if teams see him

Why no production?  Because he did not play because he was not as good as those in front of him.  No coach wants to loose, if he is so great he would have played.   

[TheSundanceKid]

Beat LA, the second video I meant was the weaknesses video in the DX report. The first was the youtube mix that made him famous.

As for this 'bullying people given his physical nature', have you seen his frame, lol?  How can he 'bully' anyone?  Besides, if we're going to go down that road of him just being better because he's bigger, why is that same standard not applied to this 43 point performance by Bender in a youth tournament game?

Because it doesn`t help the cause.... Same way nobody says that in this game most of his opponents are 2 years younger.....

I have no problem with Maker being a better prospect than Bender. Or Murray or Hield or whoever. I want the Celtics to get the best player. On the evidence presented to me I've come to the conclusion that Bender has the best chance of improving us long term. I've stated my issues with Maker as a prospect, that's all.

Beat LA, I'll have a look at some more videos of Maker to see if I find what you're talking about. Always prepared to give these guys more of a chance. I'm just sceptical of these guys who struggled on the court and then shoot up in individual workouts because of their athleticism. Chriss is the same, as is Jaylen. Jaylen Brown is an example of where I can get behind these kind of players though. I like him a lot, high floor and a good chance at becoming a star

[Beat LA]

There are many other examples of him making great reads and passes, it's just that I only put this particular one in that post, so it's not like it was a one time deal.  This is where I disagree with scouting reports and what you say about his basketball iq - guys who can't see nor read the game cannot make anywhere near the level of passes that Maker has shown the ability to manufacture, which is all the more amazing when you consider that he only started playing basketball at 13

His best asset is he is unknown and mysterious.   I seen a guy who can move but struggles once he gets where he is going.   A lot of guys have great basketball IQ, but it does matter what you do once you get where your going.  He seems to completely ignore the fact that he is tall and could benefit from playing close to the basket, how is that good basketball IQ.   It shows me he shuns contact.   His defensive stats have regressed each year, how is that basketball IQ, shouldn't they get better.

No argument there, although didn't he grow up as a guard or a wing player?  If so, that would explain a lot, but he does recognize that he needs to get stronger and play in the post.  Also, in regards to Maker not utilizing his size, you could say the same thing about Bender, yet no one seems to question his 'basketball iq' , and my question is why? 

Admittedly, I'm not familiar with his defensive stats.  I didn't even know that he had any, lol.

[Beat LA]

Beat LA, the second video I meant was the weaknesses video in the DX report. The first was the youtube mix that made him famous.

As for this 'bullying people given his physical nature', have you seen his frame, lol?  How can he 'bully' anyone?  Besides, if we're going to go down that road of him just being better because he's bigger, why is that same standard not applied to this 43 point performance by Bender in a youth tournament game?

Because it doesn`t help the cause.... Same way nobody says that in this game most of his opponents are 2 years younger.....

I have no problem with Maker being a better prospect than Bender. Or Murray or Hield or whoever. I want the Celtics to get the best player. On the evidence presented to me I've come to the conclusion that Bender has the best chance of improving us long term. I've stated my issues with Maker as a prospect, that's all.

Beat LA, I'll have a look at some more videos of Maker to see if I find what you're talking about. Always prepared to give these guys more of a chance. I'm just sceptical of these guys who struggled on the court and then shoot up in individual workouts because of their athleticism. Chriss is the same, as is Jaylen. Jaylen Brown is an example of where I can get behind these kind of players though. I like him a lot, high floor and a good chance at becoming a star

My sentiments, exactly, and I'm not advocating to take Maker at 3, lol.  In fact, as of right now, I'm not even sure that we should take him, and I have no idea where he'll go.  All I'm saying is that most of Maker's reputation regarding his only being an athlete, lacking fundamentals, and not being a basketball player is not based on reality, from what I've seen of him, which, again, I acknowledge isn't much, but an equally mysterious Croatian is deemed to have an outstanding 'basketball iq' (sorry, I just hate that term), as well as great fundamentals and feel for the game; and yet, if you watch the little we've seen of him, a lot of what is said about him seems to not be derived from anything more than the typical stereotypes regarding European players. 

As I've said, Willie Cauley Stein, who has no discernible skill level other than blocking shots and moving his feet, was somehow a lottery pick last year, and yet Maker, who is actually quicker with considerably more skills, is deemed to be a late first rounder?  Why, just because Stein went to Kentucky, where he didn't even really improve?  I'm just saying, if that's all it takes to be a lottery pick, then Maker should arguably rated higher purely on his defensive ability. 

[PickNRoll]

There are many other examples of him making great reads and passes, it's just that I only put this particular one in that post, so it's not like it was a one time deal.  This is where I disagree with scouting reports and what you say about his basketball iq - guys who can't see nor read the game cannot make anywhere near the level of passes that Maker has shown the ability to manufacture, which is all the more amazing when you consider that he only started playing basketball at 13

His best asset is he is unknown and mysterious.   I seen a guy who can move but struggles once he gets where he is going.   A lot of guys have great basketball IQ, but it does matter what you do once you get where your going.  He seems to completely ignore the fact that he is tall and could benefit from playing close to the basket, how is that good basketball IQ.   It shows me he shuns contact.   His defensive stats have regressed each year, how is that basketball IQ, shouldn't they get better.

No argument there, although didn't he grow up as a guard or a wing player?  If so, that would explain a lot, but he does recognize that he needs to get stronger and play in the post.  Also, in regards to Maker not utilizing his size, you could say the same thing about Bender, yet no one seems to question his 'basketball iq' , and my question is why? 

Admittedly, I'm not familiar with his defensive stats.  I didn't even know that he had any, lol.

I absolutely question Bender's IQ.  In virtually every post.  He has the basketball acumen of a 7th grader.  3 point shots and fancy passes.  If he were 6 feet tall, you wouldn't pick him at the YMCA.

[Celtics4ever]

We will know in two weeks who they are going to pick.  I lean towards trading down and getting a shooter and taking a flyer on Maker later rather than risking the three on Bender.   I would then trade one of guards for a big.

[walker834]

I don't think we should trade the pick or Bender right now. We should select him.  He gives us length and an additional weapon.  He may be raw but not many people his size can do the things he can. He's better than Kevin Love down the road.  Get a different star some other way and keep Bender.

[Beat LA]

There are many other examples of him making great reads and passes, it's just that I only put this particular one in that post, so it's not like it was a one time deal.  This is where I disagree with scouting reports and what you say about his basketball iq - guys who can't see nor read the game cannot make anywhere near the level of passes that Maker has shown the ability to manufacture, which is all the more amazing when you consider that he only started playing basketball at 13

His best asset is he is unknown and mysterious.   I seen a guy who can move but struggles once he gets where he is going.   A lot of guys have great basketball IQ, but it does matter what you do once you get where your going.  He seems to completely ignore the fact that he is tall and could benefit from playing close to the basket, how is that good basketball IQ.   It shows me he shuns contact.   His defensive stats have regressed each year, how is that basketball IQ, shouldn't they get better.

No argument there, although didn't he grow up as a guard or a wing player?  If so, that would explain a lot, but he does recognize that he needs to get stronger and play in the post.  Also, in regards to Maker not utilizing his size, you could say the same thing about Bender, yet no one seems to question his 'basketball iq' , and my question is why? 

Admittedly, I'm not familiar with his defensive stats.  I didn't even know that he had any, lol.

I absolutely question Bender's IQ.  In virtually every post.  He has the basketball acumen of a 7th grader.  3 point shots and fancy passes.  If he were 6 feet tall, you wouldn't pick him at the YMCA.

Lol, I'm not sure it's that bad (although you have seen much more of him than I, well, have), but maybe that's who he was playing against (7th graders) when he scored 43 points . I just don't think the differences between Maker and Bender are what a lot of people are making them out to be, but I'm probably wrong, and there's simply not enough information to go on . Ugh.

[Beat LA]

I don't think we should trade the pick or Bender right now. We should select him.  He gives us length and an additional weapon.  He may be raw but not many people his size can do the things he can. He's better than Kevin Love down the road.  Get a different star some other way and keep Bender.

To be better than Love down the road, wouldn't Bender have to be able to at least rebound at Kevin's rate, because he's horrible at that right now.

[PickNRoll]

I don't think we should trade the pick or Bender right now. We should select him.  He gives us length and an additional weapon.  He may be raw but not many people his size can do the things he can. He's better than Kevin Love down the road.  Get a different star some other way and keep Bender.

To be better than Love down the road, wouldn't Bender have to be able to at least rebound at Kevin's rate, because he's horrible at that right now.

To be Kevin Love, he'll have to make some improvements.

Rebounding:  F--> A
Post game: F--> B+
Toughness: F --> C
IQ: F--> B

He has the KLove 3 point shooting and athleticism down pat and he's already a better ball handler, so that's something.

[Beat LA]

I don't think we should trade the pick or Bender right now. We should select him.  He gives us length and an additional weapon.  He may be raw but not many people his size can do the things he can. He's better than Kevin Love down the road.  Get a different star some other way and keep Bender.

To be better than Love down the road, wouldn't Bender have to be able to at least rebound at Kevin's rate, because he's horrible at that right now.

To be Kevin Love, he'll have to make some improvements.

Rebounding:  F--> A
Post game: F--> B+
Toughness: F --> C
IQ: F--> B

He has the KLove 3 point shooting and athleticism down pat and he's already a better ball handler, so that's something.

He's made some great outlet passes, too, so there's that .

[DefenseWinsChamps]

I don't think we should trade the pick or Bender right now. We should select him.  He gives us length and an additional weapon.  He may be raw but not many people his size can do the things he can. He's better than Kevin Love down the road.  Get a different star some other way and keep Bender.

To be better than Love down the road, wouldn't Bender have to be able to at least rebound at Kevin's rate, because he's horrible at that right now.

To be Kevin Love, he'll have to make some improvements.

Rebounding:  F--> A
Post game: F--> B+
Toughness: F --> C
IQ: F--> B

He has the KLove 3 point shooting and athleticism down pat and he's already a better ball handler, so that's something.

Your tactics of persuasion remind me of some politicians: If you say things enough times confidently, eventually they become truth.

Just because you think he is a bad pick, and you continue to discount his strengths and exaggerate his weaknesses, does not mean he is a bad prospect.

He is a top 3 talent and has the potential to be a top 3 player in this draft. He has the third most potential of anyone in this draft. This is exactly the type of high upside, and multi-talented big we have been wanting.