Author Topic: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video  (Read 37117 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #135 on: June 08, 2016, 07:16:19 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • NCE
  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20090
  • Tommy Points: 1331
Quote
Yeah, that Kobe pick what a waste.  So was that Lebron pick.

This kid is not Kobe and Certainly not LeBron, he is Darko II

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wdQR8w1TNo&index=40&list=PLS02DrMDww6epEyctSWe2CvjEFggegAiC

Complete lack of lift, the kid can't jump over a phonebook.

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8OJBaNJE6Q&index=36&list=PLS02DrMDww6epEyctSWe2CvjEFggegAiC

Athletic or Epilepsy, you be the judge.

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6q_VMn9rRs&index=33&list=PLS02DrMDww6epEyctSWe2CvjEFggegAiC

You call this solid, the guy got an open look.

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeEIwt218f8&index=29&list=PLS02DrMDww6epEyctSWe2CvjEFggegAiC

This play was decent, I still think he can't jump.

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT9AY7jywTk&index=28&list=PLS02DrMDww6epEyctSWe2CvjEFggegAiC

Again he can't jump, and a NBA baller with just throw their body into him.

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU9v25Oz_2s&list=PLS02DrMDww6epEyctSWe2CvjEFggegAiC&index=9

Nice block, but let's be honest that offensive player was bush league.

All these clips do is show me, that people do not know what athletic ability is on this forum.  The kid is mobile, but he lacks power and lift.   Mobility that was gained from soccer is what I see, and this should not be confused with natural athletic ability.

The players in these clips were subpar in talent to the NBA.   If this is the best you got as highlights go back to the drawing board.   These are laughable.

Quote
Bender on the other hand has the fundamentals to carve out a role player role in any league. That is his floor. His ceiling is being able to be an elite 3 pt shooter, secondary ball handler and effective perimeter and post defender. The thing is that because he has the fundamentals he is far more likely to reach his ceiling

With his stats, how can you say he is elite at anything.   He has elite height that is it.   He can move some but he might be able to play on the perimeter in Israel but the NBA?   Guys like LeBron and George would school him.  Durant would eat him alive.    He could not earn meaningful PT in Israel.   


Sully had the fundamentals, too.  Did he reach his ceiling.   The NBA is an athletes game.   This kid is not that good of an athlete.   Even Ainge said he has a long ways to go in terms of his body.

Quote
“His body has a long way to go,” said Ainge. “But these situations are all case by case. You’re just dealing with a small sample size.”

And, a perilously thin margin 
of error.


http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/celtics/2016/05/celts_trying_hard_to_size_up_possible_no_3_pick_dragan_bender

That sound like a ringing endorsement, NOPE.  Why would he say that if he was going to take him?   LA is down on him, Philly wants Simmons, there is no reason.  Heck, it even hurts the value of the pick in a trade.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 07:28:20 AM by Celtics4ever »

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #136 on: June 08, 2016, 08:00:01 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2493
  • Tommy Points: 199
Quote
Quote
Bender on the other hand has the fundamentals to carve out a role player role in any league. That is his floor. His ceiling is being able to be an elite 3 pt shooter, secondary ball handler and effective perimeter and post defender. The thing is that because he has the fundamentals he is far more likely to reach his ceiling
With his stats, how can you say he is elite at anything.   He has elite height that is it.   He can move some but he might be able to play on the perimeter in Israel but the NBA?   Guys like LeBron and George would school him.  Durant would eat him alive.    He could not earn meaningful PT in Israel.
Sully had the fundamentals, too.  Did he reach his ceiling.   The NBA is an athletes game.   This kid is not that good of an athlete.   Even Ainge said he has a long ways to go in terms of his body.

I didn't, I said that is his ceiling. Sully is an example of a guy with fundamentals who didn't reach his ceiling. In fact, he's a great example here. Despite him not being able to deal with his weight issues he has managed to carve out a career as a role player on a playoff team. That is what I project Bender's floor to be. Good example to bring up, thank you.


Quote
Quote
Yeah, that Kobe pick what a waste.  So was that Lebron pick.

This kid is not Kobe and Certainly not LeBron, he is Darko II

I find it so interesting that you can speak with such certainty. You should get on the phone with Danny because clearly you know something he doesn't. Speaking in such absolutes really hurts your credibility.

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #137 on: June 08, 2016, 08:14:44 AM »

Offline footey

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16039
  • Tommy Points: 1837
Quote
Quote
Bender on the other hand has the fundamentals to carve out a role player role in any league. That is his floor. His ceiling is being able to be an elite 3 pt shooter, secondary ball handler and effective perimeter and post defender. The thing is that because he has the fundamentals he is far more likely to reach his ceiling
With his stats, how can you say he is elite at anything.   He has elite height that is it.   He can move some but he might be able to play on the perimeter in Israel but the NBA?   Guys like LeBron and George would school him.  Durant would eat him alive.    He could not earn meaningful PT in Israel.
Sully had the fundamentals, too.  Did he reach his ceiling.   The NBA is an athletes game.   This kid is not that good of an athlete.   Even Ainge said he has a long ways to go in terms of his body.

I didn't, I said that is his ceiling. Sully is an example of a guy with fundamentals who didn't reach his ceiling. In fact, he's a great example here. Despite him not being able to deal with his weight issues he has managed to carve out a career as a role player on a playoff team. That is what I project Bender's floor to be. Good example to bring up, thank you.


Quote
Quote
Yeah, that Kobe pick what a waste.  So was that Lebron pick.

This kid is not Kobe and Certainly not LeBron, he is Darko II

I find it so interesting that you can speak with such certainty. You should get on the phone with Danny because clearly you know something he doesn't. Speaking in such absolutes really hurts your credibility.

After his call with Danny, he should get on the phone with Red and tell him not to draft Larry Bird, he isn't athletic enough.

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #138 on: June 08, 2016, 01:06:08 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1691
  • Tommy Points: 199
Does anyone know where that gif is of him trying to guard on the perimeter only to get crossed by some other white guy (sorry, I don't follow Euro ball so I don't know what the dude's name is)?  That was hilarious.
If you watch the Maccabi highlight videos from this year, there are 6 or 7 such plays.  For all the talk about him being Dirk mixed with Kirilenko, 1's, 2's and 3's just blow right past him in a layup drill.  Anyone who isn't faster than him just pushes him out of the way.

And there are 6 and 7 plays of him staying in front of the opponent and contesting or blocking shots.

Would you happen to have a link, by any chance?
https://www.youtube.com/user/MaccabiTLVBasketball/videos

Be warned, you have to sit through 30 videos to find 15 interesting plays.

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #139 on: June 08, 2016, 08:28:57 PM »

Offline Beat LA

  • NCE
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 896
  • Mr. Emoji
Does anyone know where that gif is of him trying to guard on the perimeter only to get crossed by some other white guy (sorry, I don't follow Euro ball so I don't know what the dude's name is)?  That was hilarious.
If you watch the Maccabi highlight videos from this year, there are 6 or 7 such plays.  For all the talk about him being Dirk mixed with Kirilenko, 1's, 2's and 3's just blow right past him in a layup drill.  Anyone who isn't faster than him just pushes him out of the way.

And there are 6 and 7 plays of him staying in front of the opponent and contesting or blocking shots.

Would you happen to have a link, by any chance?

You should check the scouting video on his DraftExpress Page:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dragan-Bender-62877

Also these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wdQR8w1TNo&index=40&list=PLS02DrMDww6epEyctSWe2CvjEFggegAiC


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca5MKd8cFso&index=35&list=PLS02DrMDww6epEyctSWe2CvjEFggegAiC


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6q_VMn9rRs&index=33&list=PLS02DrMDww6epEyctSWe2CvjEFggegAiC


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeEIwt218f8&index=29&list=PLS02DrMDww6epEyctSWe2CvjEFggegAiC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT9AY7jywTk&index=28&list=PLS02DrMDww6epEyctSWe2CvjEFggegAiC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU9v25Oz_2s&list=PLS02DrMDww6epEyctSWe2CvjEFggegAiC&index=9


I've seen the draftexpress videos, both the new and older ones, I think, but thank you so much for the youtube clips, TP :).

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #140 on: June 08, 2016, 08:46:55 PM »

Offline vjcsmoke

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3219
  • Tommy Points: 183
Read it again more carefully.  It is a joke to say highschoolers shouldn't be drafted since some of the most talented players in NBA history were drafted straight out of highschool.

Bender was playing in FIBA world competitions at the ages of 15, 16, 17 years old.
And he's playing in a pro league against grown men, for the most parts at the ages of 17-18.
The majority of scouts have said that he's more advanced than Porzingis at the same age.

There have been dozens and dozens of times when people dismiss NBA prospects for being too old.  Well Bender is the YOUNGEST prospect in the ENTIRE NBA draft.  You want upside?  He's got boatloads of it!  Can't use the upside argument both ways, well you could but it would be hypocritical.

And before you say, Bender, because Porzingis... Check it out.  At age 17 Bender was already on the radar because of how well he performed at the 2015 Adidas Eurocamp. 

http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2015/6/8/8745739/dragan-bender-nba-draft-2016-profile

This camp was held (June 6-8th) even BEFORE Porzingis got drafted (June 25th).

I'm fine with people disliking Bender as a prospect, go ahead distrust all the scouting reports available out there, but the logic used in this thread has been far from logical so far.

Here is bender against peers.  Not athletic enough?  Come on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbrXB3Lcung
He does look fantastic when guarded by kids half a foot shorter than him, doesn't he? :)

Yeah, it's almost like what he would play like if he played in high school- except in that video he would have been a junior.
Uh-huh, and there's a good reason why you can't pick kids out of high school in the draft anymore.

Yeah, that Kobe pick what a waste.  So was that Lebron pick.  It's a good thing they can't pick kids straight out of high school anymore.   ;)

Seriously, this is what happens when Bender gets to actually play against people in his own age group.  Monstrous domination.  Of course it's not fair.  But nobody was complaining when KB and LBJ made high schoolers their own age look like clowns.
Kobe and Lebron comparisons now?  Goodness.  17 year old Lebron would be the runaway MVP of the Israeli league.

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #141 on: June 08, 2016, 08:50:41 PM »

Offline Beat LA

  • NCE
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 896
  • Mr. Emoji
Quote
Maker also has a nice, albeit developing, right handed jump hook and shows definite signs that he could become at least a good post player as long as he continues to bulk up.  Like Bender, he does need to work on his left hand, but Youtube highlights to Youtube highlights (I know, I know, but it's all we have to go on, lol ;D), Bender is automatically billed as the more skilled player when it seems to me that Maker is, in fact, more polished, so why is one guy deemed a youtube gimmick while the other is this future Croatian Sensation?  I'd like to believe that we're beyond all of these stereotypes, but the fact that one guy is a white European who is deemed to possess 'tremendous skill' and 'feel for the game', while the other dude was born in Africa (and raised in Australia) and is said to 'lack skill' and needs to 'learn how to play' despite the evidence which would appear to suggest otherwise gives off the impression that such basketball buzzwords and terms have racial undertones.  Or maybe it's just me.  Yeah, it's probably just me ;D.

Maker is definitely not more polished. People have mentioned how Bender does well against his own age group. Well how about we think about how Maker did against his age group? There have been reports from DX as well as interviews such as the Scal one saying he showed very little separation from those guys. That wasn't even college level...

He doesn't have a basketball brain, he'll make the wrong play consistently. Now if you put him in a 1 on 0 environment then yeah his athleticism shines and he's able to show he has a potentially good shot. That however is no use if he can't do it in a 5 on 5 environment. It's the same thing that worries a lot of people about Jaylen Brown or Marquesse Chriss. Athleticism shines in workouts but talent shines in games. Whoever ends up taking Maker is taking on the biggest risk in the entire draft on the 1% chance he turns out to be as good as Noel. Worthy with a 2nd round pick but certainly not a 1st.

Bender on the other hand has the fundamentals to carve out a role player role in any league. That is his floor. His ceiling is being able to be an elite 3 pt shooter, secondary ball handler and effective perimeter and post defender. The thing is that because he has the fundamentals he is far more likely to reach his ceiling

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  If Maker didn't 'have a basketball brain', he wouldn't be able to make great passes like this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ4g58w1QMA

When Poeltl the Turtle makes passes like that, it's because he's 'tremendously skilled, versatile, and intelligent with great vision,' etc., but when Maker does it it equates to him not even having a basketball brain? ::) What he just showed is the definition of tremendous skill, intelligence, and vision, not to mention versatility.  Does he make mistakes?  Sure, everyone does, but, at least to me, even when he does, you can see what he was trying to do, which is invariably the right play.  His game is not based on athleticism - it's based on already a great amount of skill, imo. 

Also, in regards to Bender - no, he does not possess the fundamentals to succeed as far as big men are concerned.  Not even close, imo.  You know who does?  Sabonis.  Yes, he has a shorter wingspan, unfortunately, but as far as playing in the pivot, Sabonis is far ahead of the Croatian James Van Der Beek ;D. He has footwork of which Bender can only dream, actually boxes out, can use either hand on the block, and almost  always keeps the ball high when he rebounds on both ends.  Bender could stand to learn a thing or two from him in regards to these facets of the game, in my estimation, but again, I don't have much to go on as far as Bender is concerned.  I can only tell you what I see :-\.

Btw, didn't everyone want Willie Cauley Stein, who went 6th, last year, primarily because of his quickness, lol, despite the fact that he had demonstrated little skill and sub par rebounding ability while at Kentucky?  If that's all it takes to be a lottery pick these days, even if you have a screw in your foot ::), why isn't Maker viewed on that same level and as having the same ability, defensively?  He might even be quicker than Stein, and has actual skills, like being able to shoot and make great passes, etc.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 09:15:25 PM by Beat LA »

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #142 on: June 08, 2016, 09:07:49 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1691
  • Tommy Points: 199
Read it again more carefully.  It is a joke to say highschoolers shouldn't be drafted since some of the most talented players in NBA history were drafted straight out of highschool.

Bender was playing in FIBA world competitions at the ages of 15, 16, 17 years old.
And he's playing in a pro league against grown men, for the most parts at the ages of 17-18.
The majority of scouts have said that he's more advanced than Porzingis at the same age.

There have been dozens and dozens of times when people dismiss NBA prospects for being too old.  Well Bender is the YOUNGEST prospect in the ENTIRE NBA draft.  You want upside?  He's got boatloads of it!  Can't use the upside argument both ways, well you could but it would be hypocritical.

And before you say, Bender, because Porzingis... Check it out.  At age 17 Bender was already on the radar because of how well he performed at the 2015 Adidas Eurocamp. 

http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2015/6/8/8745739/dragan-bender-nba-draft-2016-profile

This camp was held (June 6-8th) even BEFORE Porzingis got drafted (June 25th).

I'm fine with people disliking Bender as a prospect, go ahead distrust all the scouting reports available out there, but the logic used in this thread has been far from logical so far.

Here is bender against peers.  Not athletic enough?  Come on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbrXB3Lcung
He does look fantastic when guarded by kids half a foot shorter than him, doesn't he? :)

Yeah, it's almost like what he would play like if he played in high school- except in that video he would have been a junior.
Uh-huh, and there's a good reason why you can't pick kids out of high school in the draft anymore.

Yeah, that Kobe pick what a waste.  So was that Lebron pick.  It's a good thing they can't pick kids straight out of high school anymore.   ;)

Seriously, this is what happens when Bender gets to actually play against people in his own age group.  Monstrous domination.  Of course it's not fair.  But nobody was complaining when KB and LBJ made high schoolers their own age look like clowns.
Kobe and Lebron comparisons now?  Goodness.  17 year old Lebron would be the runaway MVP of the Israeli league.
TBH, Bender looked way better at 15 or 16 than he does now.  It happens.  I recommend checking out the documentary Hoop Dreams.  Also look at the historical High School top 100 recruits from the past 20 years.  See how many names you recognize.  THAT is the reason we don't draft high schoolers.  It's simply too hard to evaluate and it's a disservice to everyone involved.  18 year old kids are often not ready for the grind, the money, and the fame, not to mention the physical challenges.

Guys like Lebron are the most extreme outliers.  Anybody with 2 eyes could tell he was a multi-generational talent.

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #143 on: June 08, 2016, 10:14:44 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

  • NCE
  • Johnny Most
  • ********************
  • Posts: 20090
  • Tommy Points: 1331
Bender has regressed in terms of D and toughness, he fell in love with the perimeter. 

Quote
Bender was playing in FIBA world competitions at the ages of 15, 16, 17 years old.
And he's playing in a pro league against grown men, for the most parts at the ages of 17-18.
The majority of scouts have said that he's more advanced than Porzingis at the same age.

And yet there is a glaring lack of production on his part.

Quote
I didn't, I said that is his ceiling. Sully is an example of a guy with fundamentals who didn't reach his ceiling. In fact, he's a great example here. Despite him not being able to deal with his weight issues he has managed to carve out a career as a role player on a playoff team. That is what I project Bender's floor to be. Good example to bring up, thank you.

Carve out a career on playoff team, that is so funny.   Did you see how well he carved out a role in these playoffs?   HE WAS HORRIBLE.   Why would any care about your projection after you just stated this, quit while your ahead dude.   

Sully is a one trick pony who can rebound.   His D, is usually poor and part of the other team's focal point of attack and he can't shoot.   If that is Bender's floor and I think I would not want to touch him with a ten foot pole.   The third pick is not something you gamble on.

Nothing Bender has done on the court, indicates he would be able to play and dominate in the NBA.   He definitely would not rebound as well as Sully.   Sully is even more athletic and does not get pushed around.  Bender would get pushed around.

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #144 on: June 08, 2016, 10:23:59 PM »

Offline walker834

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5240
  • Tommy Points: 238
The issue with this argument is it can made about anyone in the lottery.  Chriss is going to get pushed around.  Murray is going to be pushed around.  Brown probably not.  Dunn doesn't want to play here and understandably so he doesn't fit here at all.  I think Bender comes in more as a scorer and roamer anyways. He can make an impact on the defensive end with his ability to move and good iq off the ball.

Bender has enough upside where he deserves consideration.  It's hard to know what to believe but the consensus on him is that he is a hard worker.

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #145 on: June 09, 2016, 03:22:20 AM »

Offline ederson

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2896
  • Tommy Points: 279

Bender was playing in FIBA world competitions at the ages of 15, 16, 17 years old.
And he's playing in a pro league against grown men, for the most parts at the ages of 17-18.

The competitions you are talking about are youth competitions ... everyone there is 15 16 17 year old! BTW i`m still looking for the competitions he dominated like a lot of posters keepe repeating but i can`t find any ......

And there are many 17-18 olds playing pro basketball in tougher European leagues

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #146 on: June 09, 2016, 03:42:56 AM »

Offline Beat LA

  • NCE
  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 896
  • Mr. Emoji

Bender was playing in FIBA world competitions at the ages of 15, 16, 17 years old.
And he's playing in a pro league against grown men, for the most parts at the ages of 17-18.

The competitions you are talking about are youth competitions ... everyone there is 15 16 17 year old! BTW i`m still looking for the competitions he dominated like a lot of posters keepe repeating but i can`t find any ......

And there are many 17-18 olds playing pro basketball in tougher European leagues

You mean the least impressive 40 point game this side of Amida Brimah where he scored 43 points against guys who looked like they were just paid to put on a uniform and 'look pretty' (sarcasm).  Admittedly, this is my ignorance showing, so can someone explain to me who he's playing against, here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbrXB3Lcung

I kid, I kid.  I did like the right handed hook shot and he did make a few great passes, so that's good, but still, muh muh muh my Bologna ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4_G7HHJ0GE

Crank dat, Al ;D.

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #147 on: June 09, 2016, 04:06:40 AM »

Offline ederson

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2896
  • Tommy Points: 279

Bender was playing in FIBA world competitions at the ages of 15, 16, 17 years old.
And he's playing in a pro league against grown men, for the most parts at the ages of 17-18.

The competitions you are talking about are youth competitions ... everyone there is 15 16 17 year old! BTW i`m still looking for the competitions he dominated like a lot of posters keepe repeating but i can`t find any ......

And there are many 17-18 olds playing pro basketball in tougher European leagues

You mean the least impressive 40 point game this side of Amida Brimah where he scored 43 points against guys who looked like they were just paid to put on a uniform and 'look pretty' (sarcasm).  Admittedly, this is my ignorance showing, so can someone explain to me who he's playing against, here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbrXB3Lcung

I kid, I kid.  I did like the right handed hook shot and he did make a few great passes, so that's good, but still, muh muh muh my Bologna ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4_G7HHJ0GE

I can`t help you much about bologna. It`s a game from last season euroleague`s youth tournament. Macabi finished last in the group (Cedevita, Brose,Stella Azzura) and played Bologna for the 7nth place "final". I tried to find stats and rosters to have a better idea (this year for example bologna`s roster is two years younger than Bender unless in this case the age difference doesn`t matter)
Found it

bologna:
http://www.adidasngt.com/u18/competition/teams/showteam?clubcode=JVI&seasoncode=JT14#!roster

stats:
http://www.adidasngt.com/u18/game-center/statistics?mode=Leaders&entity=Players&seasonmode=Single&seasoncode=JT14&cat=Score&agg=Accumulated




BTW I`m asking about competitions he dominated not a game every now and then.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 04:15:39 AM by ederson »

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #148 on: June 09, 2016, 04:33:14 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2493
  • Tommy Points: 199
Bender has regressed in terms of D and toughness, he fell in love with the perimeter. 

Quote
Bender was playing in FIBA world competitions at the ages of 15, 16, 17 years old.
And he's playing in a pro league against grown men, for the most parts at the ages of 17-18.
The majority of scouts have said that he's more advanced than Porzingis at the same age.

And yet there is a glaring lack of production on his part.

Quote
I didn't, I said that is his ceiling. Sully is an example of a guy with fundamentals who didn't reach his ceiling. In fact, he's a great example here. Despite him not being able to deal with his weight issues he has managed to carve out a career as a role player on a playoff team. That is what I project Bender's floor to be. Good example to bring up, thank you.

Carve out a career on playoff team, that is so funny.   Did you see how well he carved out a role in these playoffs?   HE WAS HORRIBLE.   Why would any care about your projection after you just stated this, quit while your ahead dude.   

Sully is a one trick pony who can rebound.   His D, is usually poor and part of the other team's focal point of attack and he can't shoot.   If that is Bender's floor and I think I would not want to touch him with a ten foot pole.   The third pick is not something you gamble on.

Nothing Bender has done on the court, indicates he would be able to play and dominate in the NBA.   He definitely would not rebound as well as Sully.   Sully is even more athletic and does not get pushed around.  Bender would get pushed around.
I said a role player on a playoff team, not he dominated the post season... If you think Sully is a one trick pony then I'm hardly going to trust your analysis on other players. Conditioning is what holds him back, the ability to go the full round.

The third pick is not something to gamble with which is why you choose the player with the fundamentals. I didn't say he'd rebound as well as Sully, you're creating arguments that don't exist.

I'm really not bothered if you don't like Bender, but it's frustrating to see you ignore countless arguments that provide evidence of his legitimacy and then spout the same boring nonsense as before. Acknowledging them doesn't mean accepting him as the 3rd pick but it does show to other posters that you can learn new things. At the moment you're basically a toy with set lines going round in circles

Re: UPDATE - Bender Scouting Report & Video
« Reply #149 on: June 09, 2016, 04:40:16 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2493
  • Tommy Points: 199
Quote
Maker also has a nice, albeit developing, right handed jump hook and shows definite signs that he could become at least a good post player as long as he continues to bulk up.  Like Bender, he does need to work on his left hand, but Youtube highlights to Youtube highlights (I know, I know, but it's all we have to go on, lol ;D), Bender is automatically billed as the more skilled player when it seems to me that Maker is, in fact, more polished, so why is one guy deemed a youtube gimmick while the other is this future Croatian Sensation?  I'd like to believe that we're beyond all of these stereotypes, but the fact that one guy is a white European who is deemed to possess 'tremendous skill' and 'feel for the game', while the other dude was born in Africa (and raised in Australia) and is said to 'lack skill' and needs to 'learn how to play' despite the evidence which would appear to suggest otherwise gives off the impression that such basketball buzzwords and terms have racial undertones.  Or maybe it's just me.  Yeah, it's probably just me ;D.

Maker is definitely not more polished. People have mentioned how Bender does well against his own age group. Well how about we think about how Maker did against his age group? There have been reports from DX as well as interviews such as the Scal one saying he showed very little separation from those guys. That wasn't even college level...

He doesn't have a basketball brain, he'll make the wrong play consistently. Now if you put him in a 1 on 0 environment then yeah his athleticism shines and he's able to show he has a potentially good shot. That however is no use if he can't do it in a 5 on 5 environment. It's the same thing that worries a lot of people about Jaylen Brown or Marquesse Chriss. Athleticism shines in workouts but talent shines in games. Whoever ends up taking Maker is taking on the biggest risk in the entire draft on the 1% chance he turns out to be as good as Noel. Worthy with a 2nd round pick but certainly not a 1st.

Bender on the other hand has the fundamentals to carve out a role player role in any league. That is his floor. His ceiling is being able to be an elite 3 pt shooter, secondary ball handler and effective perimeter and post defender. The thing is that because he has the fundamentals he is far more likely to reach his ceiling

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  If Maker didn't 'have a basketball brain', he wouldn't be able to make great passes like this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ4g58w1QMA

When Poeltl the Turtle makes passes like that, it's because he's 'tremendously skilled, versatile, and intelligent with great vision,' etc., but when Maker does it it equates to him not even having a basketball brain? ::) What he just showed is the definition of tremendous skill, intelligence, and vision, not to mention versatility.  Does he make mistakes?  Sure, everyone does, but, at least to me, even when he does, you can see what he was trying to do, which is invariably the right play.  His game is not based on athleticism - it's based on already a great amount of skill, imo. 

Also, in regards to Bender - no, he does not possess the fundamentals to succeed as far as big men are concerned.  Not even close, imo.  You know who does?  Sabonis.  Yes, he has a shorter wingspan, unfortunately, but as far as playing in the pivot, Sabonis is far ahead of the Croatian James Van Der Beek ;D. He has footwork of which Bender can only dream, actually boxes out, can use either hand on the block, and almost  always keeps the ball high when he rebounds on both ends.  Bender could stand to learn a thing or two from him in regards to these facets of the game, in my estimation, but again, I don't have much to go on as far as Bender is concerned.  I can only tell you what I see :-\.

Btw, didn't everyone want Willie Cauley Stein, who went 6th, last year, primarily because of his quickness, lol, despite the fact that he had demonstrated little skill and sub par rebounding ability while at Kentucky?  If that's all it takes to be a lottery pick these days, even if you have a screw in your foot ::), why isn't Maker viewed on that same level and as having the same ability, defensively?  He might even be quicker than Stein, and has actual skills, like being able to shoot and make great passes, etc.

So that's one play, I'm hardly going to change my mind from that. The reason I say he has a low basketball IQ is because that's what the scouting reports are and that's what he showed in his games. Everyone will have good moments but you have to weigh the good and bad and take a measured view.

Back when he first declared there was a thread on where he would go. I watched his highlight reel and got caught up like others and said "it's a 3 player draft!"  ;D then I watched the 2nd video in the thread and went "oh..." Maker is not a player who reads the game, he's a player that uses his physical nature to bully others and outreach others and shoot over others. That gap disappears in the NBA so he'll have to learn to read the game. So far ive seen little evidence of that

EDIT: Beat LA, here's the link to the DX scouting report that I was basing most of my opinion off of http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Thon-Maker-Eschews-College-Basketball--Will-Attempt-to-Enter-NBA-Draft-5415
Before I read that I was super high on him but I think I was getting carried away a little... :-\
« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 05:17:18 AM by TheSundanceKid »