Rumors: Boston Celtics might trade 3rd overall pick in 2016 NBA draft for Okafor

[LarBrd33]

I know a lot of these threads focus on people dumping on prospects like Bender (who are likely inferior to Okafor) or highlighting how our own rookies have been dreadful by the standards Okafor is held to

Big difference between pointing out his production does not merit a top pick on Bender and just blatant dumping.   My issue is guys stating he is the real deal with little production and acting like he is Bill Russell in videos where he moves around but gets little done.   No lift, no strength, big warning signs yet guys seem oblivious.

I would rather take a flyer on a guy who has went 17 and 8 in the NBA, than a kid who could went 4 and 4 in the Israeli league and mired on the bench.  One is proven, one has potential though I would argue not as much as people think.   I said it about Sully long ago, Bender's athletic base is worse, and this limits his potential.   

I think the kid can get stronger, his vertical is what concerns me and good players play, period.   If your good, you will get minutes regardless of age.

Yeah I just think it's funny that people act like Okafor is trash after averaging 18 and 7 as a rookie in just 30mpg.  He's a year removed from winning a national championship, has legitimate size, and clearly has one of the most versatile offensive games we've seen out of a big man prospect in years.  We have every reason to believe he'll continue to improve and if you look at other bigs like DeMarcus Cousins, Andre Drummond, Anthony Davis, etc - they seem to improve pretty dramatically after a year or two.  Cousins averaged 14 and 8 as a rookie... now he averages 27 and 12.   Davis averaged 13 and 8 as a rookie... now he averages 24 and 10.   Drummond averaged 8 and 7 as a rookie, now he averages 16 and 15. 

My question is, what kind of production do people really expect out of the #3 pick on his rookie year and how will that compare to Okafor's 18 and 7?

Buddy Hield might be a lesser prospect than Doug McDermott.  McDermott averaged 3 points, 1.2 rebounds, 0.2 assists, with 40%/31%/67% shooting as a rookie.  Is that the kind of production we'd rather have?

Is JJ Reddick a better example?  He averaged 6 points, 1.2 rebounds, 0.9 assists with 41%/38%/90% shooting as a rookie.  Better?

I hear Jalen Brown is a poor man's Justice Winslow.  Winslow put up solid numbers of 6.4 points, 5.2 rebounds, 1.5 assists with 42%/27%/68% shooting.   Is that much better than Okafor?

From what I understand, Dragan Bender compares well with Yi Jianlian.  Yi averaged 8.6 points, 5.2 rebounds, 0.8 assists with 42%/28%/84% shooting.   Is that the kind of expectations you have for our rookie next year?

Fans think Okafor is a garbage, but have no problem defending Marcus Smart.  Smart is two years into a career averaging 8.4 points, 3.1 assists, 3.7 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 35%/29%/72% shooting.  Is that the golden standard for young players?

jaylen Brown is not a poor mans Justice Winslow.
Bender is not Yi Janlian
Hield might be worse than McDermott... He might also be better

Let me be clear I don't have high hopes for any rookies to come in and dominate right away or even be particularly good. However if you can't realize that Okafors 18 and 7 is pretty unique.

He's on Philly and someone has to score points. Then compound that with him getting into fights etc which drops his value a bit. Then he has the knee issue. Then add to that that all of his flaws coming out of college were as advertised (still a bad rebounder and defender) and advanced stats see him as like the worst player in the NBA.

That fact he was able to score that efficiently without talent around him is very impressive.

We won a mere 25 games a couple seasons ago.   Jeff Green was our best scorer averaging 16.9 points with 41% shooting despite the fact he had other players on that team such as Brandon Bass, Jared Sullinger, Avery Bradley (putting up stats almost identical to his stats this year for a 48 win team) and for 30 games, Rajon Rondo.   That's the least-efficient scoring Jeff Green has ever had.  41% shooting was an all-time low. 

The fact that Okafor averaged 17 points (in only 30mpg) with 51% shooting as a 20 year old rookie on a team with no offensive help is pretty outstanding.    He's already averaging 21 points per 36 minutes.   Long-term, this guy might be averaging high 20s.

[Granath]

I know a lot of these threads focus on people dumping on prospects like Bender (who are likely inferior to Okafor) or highlighting how our own rookies have been dreadful by the standards Okafor is held to

Big difference between pointing out his production does not merit a top pick on Bender and just blatant dumping.   My issue is guys stating he is the real deal with little production and acting like he is Bill Russell in videos where he moves around but gets little done.   No lift, no strength, big warning signs yet guys seem oblivious.

I would rather take a flyer on a guy who has went 17 and 8 in the NBA, than a kid who could went 4 and 4 in the Israeli league and mired on the bench.  One is proven, one has potential though I would argue not as much as people think.   I said it about Sully long ago, Bender's athletic base is worse, and this limits his potential.   

I think the kid can get stronger, his vertical is what concerns me and good players play, period.   If your good, you will get minutes regardless of age.

Yeah I just think it's funny that people act like Okafor is trash after averaging 18 and 7 as a rookie in just 30mpg.  He's a year removed from winning a national championship, has legitimate size, and clearly has one of the most versatile offensive games we've seen out of a big man prospect in years.  We have every reason to believe he'll continue to improve and if you look at other bigs like DeMarcus Cousins, Andre Drummond, Anthony Davis, etc - they seem to improve pretty dramatically after a year or two.  Cousins averaged 14 and 8 as a rookie... now he averages 27 and 12.   Davis averaged 13 and 8 as a rookie... now he averages 24 and 10.   Drummond averaged 8 and 7 as a rookie, now he averages 16 and 15. 

My question is, what kind of production do people really expect out of the #3 pick on his rookie year and how will that compare to Okafor's 18 and 7?

Buddy Hield might be a lesser prospect than Doug McDermott.  McDermott averaged 3 points, 1.2 rebounds, 0.2 assists, with 40%/31%/67% shooting as a rookie.  Is that the kind of production we'd rather have?

Is JJ Reddick a better example?  He averaged 6 points, 1.2 rebounds, 0.9 assists with 41%/38%/90% shooting as a rookie.  Better?

I hear Jalen Brown is a poor man's Justice Winslow.  Winslow put up solid numbers of 6.4 points, 5.2 rebounds, 1.5 assists with 42%/27%/68% shooting.   Is that much better than Okafor?

From what I understand, Dragan Bender compares well with Yi Jianlian.  Yi averaged 8.6 points, 5.2 rebounds, 0.8 assists with 42%/28%/84% shooting.   Is that the kind of expectations you have for our rookie next year?

Fans think Okafor is a garbage, but have no problem defending Marcus Smart.  Smart is two years into a career averaging 8.4 points, 3.1 assists, 3.7 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 35%/29%/72% shooting.  Is that the golden standard for young players?

jaylen Brown is not a poor mans Justice Winslow.
Bender is not Yi Janlian
Hield might be worse than McDermott... He might also be better

Let me be clear I don't have high hopes for any rookies to come in and dominate right away or even be particularly good. However if you can't realize that Okafors 18 and 7 is pretty unique.

He's on Philly and someone has to score points. Then compound that with him getting into fights etc which drops his value a bit. Then he has the knee issue. Then add to that that all of his flaws coming out of college were as advertised (still a bad rebounder and defender) and advanced stats see him as like the worst player in the NBA.

That fact he was able to score that efficiently without talent around him is very impressive.

We won a mere 25 games a couple seasons ago.   Jeff Green was our best scorer averaging 16.9 points with 41% shooting despite the fact he had other players on that team such as Brandon Bass, Jared Sullinger, Avery Bradley (putting up stats almost identical to his stats this year for a 48 win team) and for 30 games, Rajon Rondo.   That's the least-efficient scoring Jeff Green has ever had.  41% shooting was an all-time low. 

The fact that Okafor averaged 17 points (in only 30mpg) with 51% shooting as a 20 year old rookie on a team with no offensive help is pretty outstanding.    He's already averaging 21 points per 36 minutes.   Long-term, this guy might be averaging high 20s.

And his team was still 7.5 points worse on offense while he was on the floor. It doesn't matter how many he scores when he's a net negative to his team on both ends of the floor, does it?

[Ilikesports17]

I know a lot of these threads focus on people dumping on prospects like Bender (who are likely inferior to Okafor) or highlighting how our own rookies have been dreadful by the standards Okafor is held to

Big difference between pointing out his production does not merit a top pick on Bender and just blatant dumping.   My issue is guys stating he is the real deal with little production and acting like he is Bill Russell in videos where he moves around but gets little done.   No lift, no strength, big warning signs yet guys seem oblivious.

I would rather take a flyer on a guy who has went 17 and 8 in the NBA, than a kid who could went 4 and 4 in the Israeli league and mired on the bench.  One is proven, one has potential though I would argue not as much as people think.   I said it about Sully long ago, Bender's athletic base is worse, and this limits his potential.   

I think the kid can get stronger, his vertical is what concerns me and good players play, period.   If your good, you will get minutes regardless of age.

Yeah I just think it's funny that people act like Okafor is trash after averaging 18 and 7 as a rookie in just 30mpg.  He's a year removed from winning a national championship, has legitimate size, and clearly has one of the most versatile offensive games we've seen out of a big man prospect in years.  We have every reason to believe he'll continue to improve and if you look at other bigs like DeMarcus Cousins, Andre Drummond, Anthony Davis, etc - they seem to improve pretty dramatically after a year or two.  Cousins averaged 14 and 8 as a rookie... now he averages 27 and 12.   Davis averaged 13 and 8 as a rookie... now he averages 24 and 10.   Drummond averaged 8 and 7 as a rookie, now he averages 16 and 15. 

My question is, what kind of production do people really expect out of the #3 pick on his rookie year and how will that compare to Okafor's 18 and 7?

Buddy Hield might be a lesser prospect than Doug McDermott.  McDermott averaged 3 points, 1.2 rebounds, 0.2 assists, with 40%/31%/67% shooting as a rookie.  Is that the kind of production we'd rather have?

Is JJ Reddick a better example?  He averaged 6 points, 1.2 rebounds, 0.9 assists with 41%/38%/90% shooting as a rookie.  Better?

I hear Jalen Brown is a poor man's Justice Winslow.  Winslow put up solid numbers of 6.4 points, 5.2 rebounds, 1.5 assists with 42%/27%/68% shooting.   Is that much better than Okafor?

From what I understand, Dragan Bender compares well with Yi Jianlian.  Yi averaged 8.6 points, 5.2 rebounds, 0.8 assists with 42%/28%/84% shooting.   Is that the kind of expectations you have for our rookie next year?

Fans think Okafor is a garbage, but have no problem defending Marcus Smart.  Smart is two years into a career averaging 8.4 points, 3.1 assists, 3.7 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 35%/29%/72% shooting.  Is that the golden standard for young players?

jaylen Brown is not a poor mans Justice Winslow.
Bender is not Yi Janlian
Hield might be worse than McDermott... He might also be better

Let me be clear I don't have high hopes for any rookies to come in and dominate right away or even be particularly good. However if you can't realize that Okafors 18 and 7 is pretty unique.

He's on Philly and someone has to score points. Then compound that with him getting into fights etc which drops his value a bit. Then he has the knee issue. Then add to that that all of his flaws coming out of college were as advertised (still a bad rebounder and defender) and advanced stats see him as like the worst player in the NBA.

That fact he was able to score that efficiently without talent around him is very impressive.

We won a mere 25 games a couple seasons ago.   Jeff Green was our best scorer averaging 16.9 points with 41% shooting despite the fact he had other players on that team such as Brandon Bass, Jared Sullinger, Avery Bradley (putting up stats almost identical to his stats this year for a 48 win team) and for 30 games, Rajon Rondo.   That's the least-efficient scoring Jeff Green has ever had.  41% shooting was an all-time low. 

The fact that Okafor averaged 17 points (in only 30mpg) with 51% shooting as a 20 year old rookie on a team with no offensive help is pretty outstanding.    He's already averaging 21 points per 36 minutes.   Long-term, this guy might be averaging high 20s.

And his team was still 7.5 points worse on offense while he was on the floor. It doesn't matter how many he scores when he's a net negative to his team on both ends of the floor, does it?

I believe context always matters. Allow me to supply some. On a better Philly team, Michael Carter Williams, also a rookie, averaged 17 and 6. So in all his Godly rookieness Jahlil grabbed 1 more rebound and scored one more point per game. Worth noting Carter Williams also dished 6 assists. That year Spencer Hawes averaged 9 rebounds a game and the next year, Tony Wroten average 17 a game (just through 30 games when he tore his ACL). Stats on Philly dont mean ****.

The efficiency angle is certainly valuable, but I simply dont care that he put up 18 and 7. If we want a guy who can do that, lets go get MCW.

[PickNRoll]

Okafor could never be a net negative on offense.

[Ilikesports17]

Okafor could never be a net negative on offense.

he literally was one this year.

blame the system and blame the terribleness of his teammates. Fine, but when he played Philly was worse on offense than when he did not play. He was a net negative.

Thats not really negotiable.

[ThaPreacher]

Okafor is a talented, player.
I could care less about the analytics on a poor Philly team.
His offensive game is ready made. And I mean ready made. In time he will extend his range.
Boston might trade the 3rd pick to acquire a Durrant player.
I imagine Danny wheeling and dealing. Stopping and popping!

 I wouldn't be surprised that there is another deal Smart or Bradley and pieces for Okafor.

As for Okafor-
And let us all not forget, that in Boston, he will help clear up the late night problem people, drunken Celticbloggers, coming out of bars on the North End, after Celtic Games.

Boston will be safer!

[LarBrd33]

I know a lot of these threads focus on people dumping on prospects like Bender (who are likely inferior to Okafor) or highlighting how our own rookies have been dreadful by the standards Okafor is held to

Big difference between pointing out his production does not merit a top pick on Bender and just blatant dumping.   My issue is guys stating he is the real deal with little production and acting like he is Bill Russell in videos where he moves around but gets little done.   No lift, no strength, big warning signs yet guys seem oblivious.

I would rather take a flyer on a guy who has went 17 and 8 in the NBA, than a kid who could went 4 and 4 in the Israeli league and mired on the bench.  One is proven, one has potential though I would argue not as much as people think.   I said it about Sully long ago, Bender's athletic base is worse, and this limits his potential.   

I think the kid can get stronger, his vertical is what concerns me and good players play, period.   If your good, you will get minutes regardless of age.

Yeah I just think it's funny that people act like Okafor is trash after averaging 18 and 7 as a rookie in just 30mpg.  He's a year removed from winning a national championship, has legitimate size, and clearly has one of the most versatile offensive games we've seen out of a big man prospect in years.  We have every reason to believe he'll continue to improve and if you look at other bigs like DeMarcus Cousins, Andre Drummond, Anthony Davis, etc - they seem to improve pretty dramatically after a year or two.  Cousins averaged 14 and 8 as a rookie... now he averages 27 and 12.   Davis averaged 13 and 8 as a rookie... now he averages 24 and 10.   Drummond averaged 8 and 7 as a rookie, now he averages 16 and 15. 

My question is, what kind of production do people really expect out of the #3 pick on his rookie year and how will that compare to Okafor's 18 and 7?

Buddy Hield might be a lesser prospect than Doug McDermott.  McDermott averaged 3 points, 1.2 rebounds, 0.2 assists, with 40%/31%/67% shooting as a rookie.  Is that the kind of production we'd rather have?

Is JJ Reddick a better example?  He averaged 6 points, 1.2 rebounds, 0.9 assists with 41%/38%/90% shooting as a rookie.  Better?

I hear Jalen Brown is a poor man's Justice Winslow.  Winslow put up solid numbers of 6.4 points, 5.2 rebounds, 1.5 assists with 42%/27%/68% shooting.   Is that much better than Okafor?

From what I understand, Dragan Bender compares well with Yi Jianlian.  Yi averaged 8.6 points, 5.2 rebounds, 0.8 assists with 42%/28%/84% shooting.   Is that the kind of expectations you have for our rookie next year?

Fans think Okafor is a garbage, but have no problem defending Marcus Smart.  Smart is two years into a career averaging 8.4 points, 3.1 assists, 3.7 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 35%/29%/72% shooting.  Is that the golden standard for young players?

jaylen Brown is not a poor mans Justice Winslow.
Bender is not Yi Janlian
Hield might be worse than McDermott... He might also be better

Let me be clear I don't have high hopes for any rookies to come in and dominate right away or even be particularly good. However if you can't realize that Okafors 18 and 7 is pretty unique.

He's on Philly and someone has to score points. Then compound that with him getting into fights etc which drops his value a bit. Then he has the knee issue. Then add to that that all of his flaws coming out of college were as advertised (still a bad rebounder and defender) and advanced stats see him as like the worst player in the NBA.

That fact he was able to score that efficiently without talent around him is very impressive.

We won a mere 25 games a couple seasons ago.   Jeff Green was our best scorer averaging 16.9 points with 41% shooting despite the fact he had other players on that team such as Brandon Bass, Jared Sullinger, Avery Bradley (putting up stats almost identical to his stats this year for a 48 win team) and for 30 games, Rajon Rondo.   That's the least-efficient scoring Jeff Green has ever had.  41% shooting was an all-time low. 

The fact that Okafor averaged 17 points (in only 30mpg) with 51% shooting as a 20 year old rookie on a team with no offensive help is pretty outstanding.    He's already averaging 21 points per 36 minutes.   Long-term, this guy might be averaging high 20s.

And his team was still 7.5 points worse on offense while he was on the floor. It doesn't matter how many he scores when he's a net negative to his team on both ends of the floor, does it?

People quoting advanced stats usually don't understand the context surrounding them.   Philly was a historically bad team by design (literally trying to lose basketball games to successfully maximize their chance at the 2016 draft).  Okafor started for them.  They were getting owned by other team's starters nightly.  If towards the end of the game, with Philly down 40, both teams put in their reserves for garbage time - and Philly goes on a little 8-0 run, it will impact Okafor's +/- stats.

Lack of context also just ignores the fact that Philly didn't have the talent surrounding Okafor or a system in place that really made any sense.  Often, he was sharing the court with players like Noel who were forced to play out of position.  It was a disastrous lineup.   And they had nothing at all resembling shooting on that team - which is what a post player like Okafor obviously needs to be successful.

Also, I have to wonder how much those stats were impacted by the arrival of Ish Smith.  Okafor got injured at some point.  Okafor missed the last two months of the season.   Ish Smith (the closest Philly had to a point guard) flourished over the final two months playing with a rejuvenated Nerlens Noel.  That's going to impact those stats.

Lastly, consider that the talent Philly had on their team (mainly composed of athletic d-leaguers with no experience who can run and dunk) are an awful fit next to Okafor.   Any level of success those ringers had would be in a lineup that put a priority on fast-break basketball and transition offense.   Okafor's game revolves around post moves and isolations.  You need the right type of talent around a guy like that.   Philly obviously didn't have that talent.  So it shouldn't be a surprise that when Okafor sat and Philly was able to embrace their only advantage (fast break basketball), they'd succeed a tiny bit more.  That doesn't mean Okafor's skillset is garbage, though.   Think about it.

Also, look up the same stat for guys like Anthony Davis and Boogie Cousins as rookies.  It's pretty common for rookies to have poor advanced stats.  Context matters.

[PickNRoll]

Okafor could never be a net negative on offense.

he literally was one this year.

blame the system and blame the terribleness of his teammates. Fine, but when he played Philly was worse on offense than when he did not play. He was a net negative.

Thats not really negotiable.

BS.  Statistical BS.  I watched a lot of Sixer's games and he's far and away their best offensive player.  Arguably THE best offensive rookie.

[LooseCannon]

I know a lot of these threads focus on people dumping on prospects like Bender (who are likely inferior to Okafor) or highlighting how our own rookies have been dreadful by the standards Okafor is held to

Big difference between pointing out his production does not merit a top pick on Bender and just blatant dumping.   My issue is guys stating he is the real deal with little production and acting like he is Bill Russell in videos where he moves around but gets little done.   No lift, no strength, big warning signs yet guys seem oblivious.

I would rather take a flyer on a guy who has went 17 and 8 in the NBA, than a kid who could went 4 and 4 in the Israeli league and mired on the bench.  One is proven, one has potential though I would argue not as much as people think.   I said it about Sully long ago, Bender's athletic base is worse, and this limits his potential.   

I think the kid can get stronger, his vertical is what concerns me and good players play, period.   If your good, you will get minutes regardless of age.

Yeah I just think it's funny that people act like Okafor is trash after averaging 18 and 7 as a rookie in just 30mpg.  He's a year removed from winning a national championship, has legitimate size, and clearly has one of the most versatile offensive games we've seen out of a big man prospect in years.  We have every reason to believe he'll continue to improve and if you look at other bigs like DeMarcus Cousins, Andre Drummond, Anthony Davis, etc - they seem to improve pretty dramatically after a year or two.  Cousins averaged 14 and 8 as a rookie... now he averages 27 and 12.   Davis averaged 13 and 8 as a rookie... now he averages 24 and 10.   Drummond averaged 8 and 7 as a rookie, now he averages 16 and 15. 

My question is, what kind of production do people really expect out of the #3 pick on his rookie year and how will that compare to Okafor's 18 and 7?

Buddy Hield might be a lesser prospect than Doug McDermott.  McDermott averaged 3 points, 1.2 rebounds, 0.2 assists, with 40%/31%/67% shooting as a rookie.  Is that the kind of production we'd rather have?

Is JJ Reddick a better example?  He averaged 6 points, 1.2 rebounds, 0.9 assists with 41%/38%/90% shooting as a rookie.  Better?

I hear Jalen Brown is a poor man's Justice Winslow.  Winslow put up solid numbers of 6.4 points, 5.2 rebounds, 1.5 assists with 42%/27%/68% shooting.   Is that much better than Okafor?

From what I understand, Dragan Bender compares well with Yi Jianlian.  Yi averaged 8.6 points, 5.2 rebounds, 0.8 assists with 42%/28%/84% shooting.   Is that the kind of expectations you have for our rookie next year?

Fans think Okafor is a garbage, but have no problem defending Marcus Smart.  Smart is two years into a career averaging 8.4 points, 3.1 assists, 3.7 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 35%/29%/72% shooting.  Is that the golden standard for young players?

jaylen Brown is not a poor mans Justice Winslow.
Bender is not Yi Janlian
Hield might be worse than McDermott... He might also be better

Let me be clear I don't have high hopes for any rookies to come in and dominate right away or even be particularly good. However if you can't realize that Okafors 18 and 7 is pretty unique.

He's on Philly and someone has to score points. Then compound that with him getting into fights etc which drops his value a bit. Then he has the knee issue. Then add to that that all of his flaws coming out of college were as advertised (still a bad rebounder and defender) and advanced stats see him as like the worst player in the NBA.

That fact he was able to score that efficiently without talent around him is very impressive.

We won a mere 25 games a couple seasons ago.   Jeff Green was our best scorer averaging 16.9 points with 41% shooting despite the fact he had other players on that team such as Brandon Bass, Jared Sullinger, Avery Bradley (putting up stats almost identical to his stats this year for a 48 win team) and for 30 games, Rajon Rondo.   That's the least-efficient scoring Jeff Green has ever had.  41% shooting was an all-time low. 

The fact that Okafor averaged 17 points (in only 30mpg) with 51% shooting as a 20 year old rookie on a team with no offensive help is pretty outstanding.    He's already averaging 21 points per 36 minutes.   Long-term, this guy might be averaging high 20s.

It's possible to score 20ppg and not be a good player.

[Ilikesports17]

Okafor could never be a net negative on offense.

he literally was one this year.

blame the system and blame the terribleness of his teammates. Fine, but when he played Philly was worse on offense than when he did not play. He was a net negative.

Thats not really negotiable.

BS.  Statistical BS.  I watched a lot of Sixer's games and he's far and away their best offensive player.  Arguably THE best offensive rookie.

that sucks for you.

I did not watch much Philly. Most of what I say here is based on stats a few games watched and other opinions of Okafor. I too prefer the eye test and have always been impressed with Jahlil. He also has always looked quicker to me than the scout reports indicate and the way he hold the ball is ridiculous. However, I have a hard time refuting that stat. It wasnt a small gap. It was like 8 points.

[PickNRoll]

I know a lot of these threads focus on people dumping on prospects like Bender (who are likely inferior to Okafor) or highlighting how our own rookies have been dreadful by the standards Okafor is held to

Big difference between pointing out his production does not merit a top pick on Bender and just blatant dumping.   My issue is guys stating he is the real deal with little production and acting like he is Bill Russell in videos where he moves around but gets little done.   No lift, no strength, big warning signs yet guys seem oblivious.

I would rather take a flyer on a guy who has went 17 and 8 in the NBA, than a kid who could went 4 and 4 in the Israeli league and mired on the bench.  One is proven, one has potential though I would argue not as much as people think.   I said it about Sully long ago, Bender's athletic base is worse, and this limits his potential.   

I think the kid can get stronger, his vertical is what concerns me and good players play, period.   If your good, you will get minutes regardless of age.

Yeah I just think it's funny that people act like Okafor is trash after averaging 18 and 7 as a rookie in just 30mpg.  He's a year removed from winning a national championship, has legitimate size, and clearly has one of the most versatile offensive games we've seen out of a big man prospect in years.  We have every reason to believe he'll continue to improve and if you look at other bigs like DeMarcus Cousins, Andre Drummond, Anthony Davis, etc - they seem to improve pretty dramatically after a year or two.  Cousins averaged 14 and 8 as a rookie... now he averages 27 and 12.   Davis averaged 13 and 8 as a rookie... now he averages 24 and 10.   Drummond averaged 8 and 7 as a rookie, now he averages 16 and 15. 

My question is, what kind of production do people really expect out of the #3 pick on his rookie year and how will that compare to Okafor's 18 and 7?

Buddy Hield might be a lesser prospect than Doug McDermott.  McDermott averaged 3 points, 1.2 rebounds, 0.2 assists, with 40%/31%/67% shooting as a rookie.  Is that the kind of production we'd rather have?

Is JJ Reddick a better example?  He averaged 6 points, 1.2 rebounds, 0.9 assists with 41%/38%/90% shooting as a rookie.  Better?

I hear Jalen Brown is a poor man's Justice Winslow.  Winslow put up solid numbers of 6.4 points, 5.2 rebounds, 1.5 assists with 42%/27%/68% shooting.   Is that much better than Okafor?

From what I understand, Dragan Bender compares well with Yi Jianlian.  Yi averaged 8.6 points, 5.2 rebounds, 0.8 assists with 42%/28%/84% shooting.   Is that the kind of expectations you have for our rookie next year?

Fans think Okafor is a garbage, but have no problem defending Marcus Smart.  Smart is two years into a career averaging 8.4 points, 3.1 assists, 3.7 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 35%/29%/72% shooting.  Is that the golden standard for young players?

jaylen Brown is not a poor mans Justice Winslow.
Bender is not Yi Janlian
Hield might be worse than McDermott... He might also be better

Let me be clear I don't have high hopes for any rookies to come in and dominate right away or even be particularly good. However if you can't realize that Okafors 18 and 7 is pretty unique.

He's on Philly and someone has to score points. Then compound that with him getting into fights etc which drops his value a bit. Then he has the knee issue. Then add to that that all of his flaws coming out of college were as advertised (still a bad rebounder and defender) and advanced stats see him as like the worst player in the NBA.

That fact he was able to score that efficiently without talent around him is very impressive.

We won a mere 25 games a couple seasons ago.   Jeff Green was our best scorer averaging 16.9 points with 41% shooting despite the fact he had other players on that team such as Brandon Bass, Jared Sullinger, Avery Bradley (putting up stats almost identical to his stats this year for a 48 win team) and for 30 games, Rajon Rondo.   That's the least-efficient scoring Jeff Green has ever had.  41% shooting was an all-time low. 

The fact that Okafor averaged 17 points (in only 30mpg) with 51% shooting as a 20 year old rookie on a team with no offensive help is pretty outstanding.    He's already averaging 21 points per 36 minutes.   Long-term, this guy might be averaging high 20s.

It's possible to score 20ppg and not be a good player.

Which ones?

[LarBrd33]

Okafor could never be a net negative on offense.

he literally was one this year.

blame the system and blame the terribleness of his teammates. Fine, but when he played Philly was worse on offense than when he did not play. He was a net negative.

Thats not really negotiable.

BS.  Statistical BS.  I watched a lot of Sixer's games and he's far and away their best offensive player.  Arguably THE best offensive rookie.

that sucks for you.

I did not watch much Philly. Most of what I say here is based on stats a few games watched and other opinions of Okafor. I too prefer the eye test and have always been impressed with Jahlil. He also has always looked quicker to me than the scout reports indicate and the way he hold the ball is ridiculous. However, I have a hard time refuting that stat. It wasnt a small gap. It was like 8 points.

See my post above.  Consider context.   Pretty sure Anthony Davis and Boogie Cousins were 8 points worse when they played as rookies as well.   When you think about Okafor's situation logically, it doesn't boil down to him being a poor player.

[Boris Badenov]

I dug into the numbers a bit and it looks like Okafor's on-court harm on offense comes from two sources: a lower steal rate, and a higher turnover rate.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoja01/on-off/2016/

Looking at the lineup data, he was most often subbed out by Philly going small (with essentially two SFs and another big).

That could be contributing to both of those differences. Almost any small forward will have fewer turnovers and more steals than a typical C/PF.

Of course, it's also likely that Okafor himself is at fault, being both both turnover-prone and hardly a ball-hawk.

If there's a silver lining, it's that turnover problems are one of the more fixable issues for young big men.

[hodgy03038]

Which ones?


[/quote]

You are showing playoff stats.

[Ilikesports17]

Okafor could never be a net negative on offense.

he literally was one this year.

blame the system and blame the terribleness of his teammates. Fine, but when he played Philly was worse on offense than when he did not play. He was a net negative.

Thats not really negotiable.

BS.  Statistical BS.  I watched a lot of Sixer's games and he's far and away their best offensive player.  Arguably THE best offensive rookie.

that sucks for you.

I did not watch much Philly. Most of what I say here is based on stats a few games watched and other opinions of Okafor. I too prefer the eye test and have always been impressed with Jahlil. He also has always looked quicker to me than the scout reports indicate and the way he hold the ball is ridiculous. However, I have a hard time refuting that stat. It wasnt a small gap. It was like 8 points.

See my post above.  Consider context.   Pretty sure Anthony Davis and Boogie Cousins were 8 points worse when they played as rookies as well.   When you think about Okafor's situation logically, it doesn't boil down to him being a poor player.

Cousins was bad as a rookie but he had a host of issues, many of which he has not resolved.

Also, Davis was a beast as a rookie.

Both Davis and Cousins were way better than Okafor defensively and both had very good rebounding statistics (15 per 100 possessions).

The context you offered is valuable. I had not considered the Ish Smith angle. That same logic when applied to advanced stats should also be applied to his counting stats. Like I said, its easy to put up numbers for Philly. Teams rest their guys against you, they come into the game assuming they are gonna get the W and theres just no way Philly opponents bring the same intensity to rebounding and defense against Philly.

I think we are straying from the point here.

I dont think advanced stats mean Okafor sucks or the counting stats mean he sucks or anything like that. Im think that Philly is such a dumpster fire that it is really hard to take much of anything at all from the stats of Okafor.

The eye test is probably most important.

I understand that if you dont use stats in your argument you look like a bit of an ass. But the Philly situation is so unique that you can reason your way out of just about ever statistic. take RPM. RPM is build using 3 year regressions of players starting with their raw plus minus total and using a formula of sorts to build everything upon itself. Philly is made up pretty much entirely of really young players for whom there really isnt much data on. The system basically collapses on itself. Boom. RPM is useless. One of the bigger strikes against Jahlil. Throw it out.

Okafor scored 18 and 7 this year. 2 years ago MCW did 17 and 6. Boom big strike in Okafors favor, throw it out.