Does anyone else think the #3 for okafor is completely unrealistic?

[PhoSita]

To those out there that thinks #3 is not enough for Okafor, what do you think is a reasonable trade package for him?

I'd do #3 + #23 + Bradley.


Could make some sense for Philly, as Bradley and whoever they take at 3 (likely Dunn, Murray, or Hield), would be good complements to Simmons.

Bradley would be a nice veteran presence for that team.  Give them some stability in the starting lineup.  Good example-setter.


I think that deal is a steal for a guy who would immediately replace Sullinger and probably put up 18 and 9 or better next year for a Celts team that desperately needs another guy who can create high percentage opportunities for himself, especially inside.

[greece66]

To those out there that thinks #3 is not enough for Okafor, what do you think is a reasonable trade package for him?

I'd do #3 + #23 + Bradley.


Could make some sense for Philly, as Bradley and whoever they take at 3 (likely Dunn, Murray, or Hield), would be good complements to Simmons.

Bradley would be a nice veteran presence for that team.  Give them some stability in the starting lineup.  Good example-setter.

Adding Okafor make sense because many of our players are in their mid-twenties and approaching their peak. So, you add Okafor who can have an immediate impact on scoring and rebounding.

On the other hand, this roster's ceiling would be (at best) the ECF. So, you are again left with the hope that you either get lucky in a future draft or you get a superstar through the FA.

IMO better just to try your chances now and use your picks for high ceiling rookies; it is risky, but it does give you a higher % of building a contender.

[tankcity!]

What is wrong with people on this board? I want Okafor badly. But who are we exactly competing with for his services? The offers being proposed on this board are ludicrous. Who is going to offer more than the Celtics #3 overall pick? Lakers aren't because I think they would rather have Ingram/Simmons.

The Sixers do in fact have to trade him and are inclined to with the new Front Office Regime, which equals less leverage. Danny is going to fleece the Sixers and then everyone on this board will be happy.

[tankcity!]

You guys are funny. Okafor put up decent numbers on a historically awful team that had nobody else who could score. He also played poor defense, got in trouble off the court repeatedly, and had an overall poor attitude. He was not in the running for rookie of the year in his own draft class.

On top of it, the Sixers have Noel, Embiid, Okafor, and Saric all playing next season. All big men. They are starting for a PG. Are we supposed to seriously think they wouldn't jump at the chance to trade Okafor for #3 and draft Dunn? They would LOVE to do so. I can see the Celtics doing much better with the #3 pick though. I would be honestly disappointed if we trade it for Okafor. He doesnt fit our team or the modern NBA game, and doesnt provide a defensive presence inside either.

Okafor still looks like a future all-star to me. 

This coming from the same guy that was insisting to everyone that the Nets were a playoff team this year and that people like me who said they were a bottom 5 team didn't know what they were talking about.

the kid can score inside.  didn't see much else from him this year on the court.  also don't care for his off-court antics.  #3 pick would be a bit much to offer for my tastes.

Not everyone is perfect with their predictions. I'm sure you've been wrong so that counter by you makes no sense. Second, I agree with Lbrrd. Okafor will be an all star. He is only 19 compared to an older Jefferson who wasn't decent until his third year in the league. Also, if you see Coach K's quotes, he compares him to the Duke greats like Grant Hill. The dude did win the NCAA tournament. He's just on a garbage team. Imagine what he would look like on the Celtics as the center instead of Sullinger?

[tankcity!]

I do this trade in a heartbeat. I take the sure all star over a pick that can be hit or miss.

Okafor is not a sure all-star.

He put up solid numbers on a terrible team.  That doesn't mean you are a sure all-star. 

Tyreke averaged something like 20/5/5 in his rookie year and I don't think he's made a single all-star game.

When Okafor has shown he can put up all-star calibre numbers on a team that is at least remotely competitive (i.e. not bottom 5 in the NBA) for at least 2 straight seasons, then I will concede he is worth a gamble.

Until then he has proven nothing.

Dude just use your eyes and tell me he can't score.

[tankcity!]

You guys are funny. Okafor put up decent numbers on a historically awful team that had nobody else who could score. He also played poor defense, got in trouble off the court repeatedly, and had an overall poor attitude. He was not in the running for rookie of the year in his own draft class.

On top of it, the Sixers have Noel, Embiid, Okafor, and Saric all playing next season. All big men. They are starting for a PG. Are we supposed to seriously think they wouldn't jump at the chance to trade Okafor for #3 and draft Dunn? They would LOVE to do so. I can see the Celtics doing much better with the #3 pick though. I would be honestly disappointed if we trade it for Okafor. He doesnt fit our team or the modern NBA game, and doesnt provide a defensive presence inside either.

Okafor still looks like a future all-star to me.  He certainly put up rookie numbers reflecting a player who will develop into an all-star.   Is Dunn a future all-star?  I'm asking this legitimately as someone who doesn't follow College ball.  Does Dunn have any hope of developing into an all-star?  Because I see that at Okafor's age, Dunn was averaging 3.8 points, 5 assists, 2.5 rebounds, 1.8 steals with 31% shooting on the College level.  Is that more impressive than Okafor putting up per-36 numbers of  21 points, 8.4 rebounds, 1.4 blocks with 51% shooting as a 20 year old rookie on the NBA level? 

Worst-case scenario, Okafor is Al Jefferson.  What's Dunn's worst-case scenario?

Thing is, there's a chance a month from now we'll have more insight into this draft and realize there's a Porzingus type rising up unexpectedly.  That's possible.  You might even see SImmons or Ingram fall out of the Top 2 (as did with Okafor last season).   So maybe there's a future star that will be available.  Maybe that's 22 year old Kris Dunn.

But there's also a chance Okafor will be better than every single player in this draft.  And he's already shown rare NBA skills that will make him desirable to many teams if Philly decides to move him.  All I'm saying is, if I'm running Philly, I wouldn't bother trading a guaranteed blue chip like him for a scratch ticket unless I was REALLY sure about this draft.  I'd instead look at moving him for an established young player that I've seen play in the NBA already.   That's why I threw out the Suns as a team.  They have Bledsoe and Knight at PG already (as well as Devin Booker at SG) and they have the 4th pick in a guard-heavy 3-8 range.  Seems to me, trading Knight or Bledsoe for Okafor would make some sense for both teams.  Suns could use an elite big man prospect.  Philly could use a decent guard that they know can perform on the NBA level.

FWIW, I went to a Suns forum and questioned if they'd target one of Philly's bigs.  Apparently a bunch of them were already in favor of doing that and brought up an interesting point I hadn't considered... Colangelo has a good relationship with the Suns.  Two Suns fans even suggested they'd be willing to trade Brandon Knight AND the #4 pick for Okafor. 

Also interesting is that a couple of the Suns fans suggested they should trade Brandon Knight for Dario Saric.   I guess they aren't that high on Brandon Knight.  That surprises me a bit, because if Philly decides to start dumping bigs, I'd expect them to target an established player like Brandon Knight over a crapshoot draft pick.  Knight is only 24 years old and averaged 20 points, 5 assists, 4 rebounds and 1.2 steals last season.   Stuff like this is why I continue to think Philly is one of the most fascinating teams this Summer.

So take that for what it's worth.

Suns would never make that offer. I won't believe it until you have an actual source instead of some Suns Fan forum board. Like seriously, who cares what fans are willing to offer.

[PhoSita]

To those out there that thinks #3 is not enough for Okafor, what do you think is a reasonable trade package for him?

I'd do #3 + #23 + Bradley.


Could make some sense for Philly, as Bradley and whoever they take at 3 (likely Dunn, Murray, or Hield), would be good complements to Simmons.

Bradley would be a nice veteran presence for that team.  Give them some stability in the starting lineup.  Good example-setter.

Adding Okafor make sense because many of our players are in their mid-twenties and approaching their peak. So, you add Okafor who can have an immediate impact on scoring and rebounding.

On the other hand, this roster's ceiling would be (at best) the ECF. So, you are again left with the hope that you either get lucky in a future draft or you get a superstar through the FA.

IMO better just to try your chances now and use your picks for high ceiling rookies; it is risky, but it does give you a higher % of building a contender.

I don't think trading for Okafor really limits your options at all.

If anything, trading Bradley and one of the later picks is doing exactly what you're talking about, leveraging more immediate assets to take a risk on a player with upside.

Okafor, in my estimation, is a better long term bet than anybody in this draft outside the top 2.  We're not talking about trading for a guy in his mid-20s who's already maxed out his abilities.

Okafor is a second year guy who spent only one year in college.  I think there's a very good chance his trade value now is as low as it will ever be.  Trading for him would be a gamble, but I'd judge it a good one.

[Evantime34]

To those out there that thinks #3 is not enough for Okafor, what do you think is a reasonable trade package for him?

I'd do #3 + #23 + Bradley.


Could make some sense for Philly, as Bradley and whoever they take at 3 (likely Dunn, Murray, or Hield), would be good complements to Simmons.

Bradley would be a nice veteran presence for that team.  Give them some stability in the starting lineup.  Good example-setter.


I think that deal is a steal for a guy who would immediately replace Sullinger and probably put up 18 and 9 or better next year for a Celts team that desperately needs another guy who can create high percentage opportunities for himself, especially inside.

I don't think they would want 23 since they already have two picks in the 20's. I guess I would consider Bradley and 3 for Okafor. Right now I'm torn between a 3 for Okafor trade and selecting Bender. Having to include Bradley makes me lean heavily towards just drafting Bender and going from there.

[tankcity!]

This is what Derek Bodner, who covers the team, thinks of Okafor:

Derek Bodner ‏@DerekBodnerNBA  ·

I don't think I've ever disagreed with consensus as vehemently as I do regarding Jahlil Okafor.

Not referring to a trade. Talking about his value as a basketball player / prospect. Just not as high on him

In all honesty, I'm kind of depressed that the Boston rumors have re-opened the Okafor debates. They're exhausting.

The funny thing is, everyone focuses on Okafor's offense not being a fit in today's NBA. That's not it at all. His defense doesn't fit today

The more the league goes to spacing, heavy pick and roll play, and one big on the court, the more pronounced Okafor's deficiencies become

If this were the mid-90's, you could hide Okafor defensively.

the defensive tools have always been the tertiary concern for me

 I don't project him to improve enough, no

FINALLY A LEGIT SOURCE!!! Please keep hurting his trade value 

[number_n9ne]

Pre-lottery the posters on Philly boards were "demanding" that Okafor be traded for the BKN pick and Rozier. I heard this on 98.5 during Zolak and Bertrand so I do not have any link/sources.

[tankcity!]

This is what Derek Bodner, who covers the team, thinks of Okafor:

Derek Bodner ‏@DerekBodnerNBA  ·

I don't think I've ever disagreed with consensus as vehemently as I do regarding Jahlil Okafor.

Not referring to a trade. Talking about his value as a basketball player / prospect. Just not as high on him

In all honesty, I'm kind of depressed that the Boston rumors have re-opened the Okafor debates. They're exhausting.

The funny thing is, everyone focuses on Okafor's offense not being a fit in today's NBA. That's not it at all. His defense doesn't fit today

The more the league goes to spacing, heavy pick and roll play, and one big on the court, the more pronounced Okafor's deficiencies become

If this were the mid-90's, you could hide Okafor defensively.

the defensive tools have always been the tertiary concern for me

 I don't project him to improve enough, no

First of all, this is pretty much exactly the majority opinion on Okafor, so Bodner isn't exactly opening any eyes here.

Second, while I agree that Okafor is a bad fit in a system that places an emphasis on a single big to hold the defense together on the back line, that is only one model for effective team defense, albeit the prevailing model today.

Okafor is a project on defense.  No doubt about it.  But Brad Stevens put together a top 10 defense this year with Jared Sullinger functioning as the center on defense for big minutes for the majority of the season.

Giving Okafor a starting role requires you to construct a team defensive concept that doesn't rely on the center to make everything work defensively.  That's an added challenge, but I don't think it's an insurmountable one.

And Okafor's offensive talent, if he improves his range and is encouraged to pass the ball by having players around him who can shoot and keep the ball moving, could easily make that challenge worth taking on.


There is the risk that it doesn't work out and Okafor is relegated to a sixth man role a la Enes Kanter.  That's a less than ideal outcome for a top 3 pick.  But that risk is less than the risk of drafting a guy that might not be able to produce in the league at all.  Okafor at least has proven he can be productive at the NBA level.

Given that, while I wouldn't give up a lot more than the #3 to get Okafor, I think trading for him with that pick as the primary piece going to the Sixers could make a lot of sense for the Celtics.  And man, wouldn't it be nice to see an honest to goodness big man with the ability to finish plays inside, regardless of contact and defensive attention, on the Celtics.  What a breath of fresh air.

TP

[alldaboston]

This is what Derek Bodner, who covers the team, thinks of Okafor:

Derek Bodner ‏@DerekBodnerNBA  ·

I don't think I've ever disagreed with consensus as vehemently as I do regarding Jahlil Okafor.

Not referring to a trade. Talking about his value as a basketball player / prospect. Just not as high on him

In all honesty, I'm kind of depressed that the Boston rumors have re-opened the Okafor debates. They're exhausting.

The funny thing is, everyone focuses on Okafor's offense not being a fit in today's NBA. That's not it at all. His defense doesn't fit today

The more the league goes to spacing, heavy pick and roll play, and one big on the court, the more pronounced Okafor's deficiencies become

If this were the mid-90's, you could hide Okafor defensively.

the defensive tools have always been the tertiary concern for me

 I don't project him to improve enough, no

First of all, this is pretty much exactly the majority opinion on Okafor, so Bodner isn't exactly opening any eyes here.

Second, while I agree that Okafor is a bad fit in a system that places an emphasis on a single big to hold the defense together on the back line, that is only one model for effective team defense, albeit the prevailing model today.

Okafor is a project on defense.  No doubt about it.  But Brad Stevens put together a top 10 defense this year with Jared Sullinger functioning as the center on defense for big minutes for the majority of the season.

Giving Okafor a starting role requires you to construct a team defensive concept that doesn't rely on the center to make everything work defensively.  That's an added challenge, but I don't think it's an insurmountable one.

And Okafor's offensive talent, if he improves his range and is encouraged to pass the ball by having players around him who can shoot and keep the ball moving, could easily make that challenge worth taking on.


There is the risk that it doesn't work out and Okafor is relegated to a sixth man role a la Enes Kanter.  That's a less than ideal outcome for a top 3 pick.  But that risk is less than the risk of drafting a guy that might not be able to produce in the league at all.  Okafor at least has proven he can be productive at the NBA level.

Given that, while I wouldn't give up a lot more than the #3 to get Okafor, I think trading for him with that pick as the primary piece going to the Sixers could make a lot of sense for the Celtics.  And man, wouldn't it be nice to see an honest to goodness big man with the ability to finish plays inside, regardless of contact and defensive attention, on the Celtics.  What a breath of fresh air.

I agree. He is a project on defense, but I think it could work. Me and another member were discussing this here: http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=84583.msg2089028#msg2089028
Ibaka could definitely help us out defensively if we land okafor.

[Lucky17]

How much better is Okafor than any of the big men projected to go after Tier Three (Hield/Murray/Brown/etc.) of this coming draft?

Just wondering if Ainge could approximate Okafor's offensive/defensive potential by moving up from #16, instead of spending #3 (and more).

[LarBrd33]

I even hear radio and tv guys talking about this possibility. It just sounds crazy for Philly. They will get way better offers.

Straight up? Probably unrealistic.

Okafor was a #3 who has shown himself to be a legitimate NBA player. Who would the Sixers be able to get at #3 that would have more value than that?

Yeah I mean... if the Celtics keep the pick and select a guard, there's a decent chance the kid spends a lot of time in D-League given that we're already pretty good on guards.   So then the question is... can the guy put up better stats in D-League than Okafor put up for the 76ers last season?  17.5 points, 7 rebounds, 1.5 blocks with 51% shooting is nothing to sneeze at.

I find your hypocritical comments so incredibly amusing sometimes.

When Philly selects a center - Okafor - at #3, you couldn't stop gushing about how great and productive he was going to be.  You didn't seem phased at all that Philly already had Embiid and Noel at the center spot.

But when Boston selects a guard at #3, apparently having Smart and Bradley is enough to bury that #3 pick in the D-League?
 

First of all... the comment that I "couldn't stop gushing about how great and productive Okafor was going to be" is an entire fabrication.  When did I do that? 

Regardless, he had an EFF of 16.6 this season in 30mpg... which puts him in the top 5 of rookies over the past half decade.  So he actually was pretty freakin productive.

Second, Rozier might actually be a decent player.  I wrote a post in defense of Rozier in a forum post here raving about Devin Booker.  Devin Booker was taken a few picks higher and might indeed be better than Rozier, but Devin Booker wouldnt' have gotten the same opportunity here in Boston.  The Celtics have a pretty decent set of guards already.  Booker would have had to immediately impressed with a tiny opportunity to have remained seeing minutes.  Rozier spent almost all of his time in D-League until injuries cleared out a path for minutes.   

Boston has a need for quality bigs, though.  Okafor would have gotten minutes here pretty quickly, because they are starved for size.  He obviously got minutes in Philly, because it was a depleated roster by design almost entirely composed of undrafted amateurs. 

So yeah, if Boston drafts another guard and he doesn't come out of the gate as a world-beater, he might very well find himself spending time in D-League.  So yes, the question then becomes, will the guard put up better stats for the Maine Red Claws than Okafor put up for Philly last season?

[LarBrd33]

You guys are funny. Okafor put up decent numbers on a historically awful team that had nobody else who could score. He also played poor defense, got in trouble off the court repeatedly, and had an overall poor attitude. He was not in the running for rookie of the year in his own draft class.

On top of it, the Sixers have Noel, Embiid, Okafor, and Saric all playing next season. All big men. They are starting for a PG. Are we supposed to seriously think they wouldn't jump at the chance to trade Okafor for #3 and draft Dunn? They would LOVE to do so. I can see the Celtics doing much better with the #3 pick though. I would be honestly disappointed if we trade it for Okafor. He doesnt fit our team or the modern NBA game, and doesnt provide a defensive presence inside either.

Okafor still looks like a future all-star to me.  He certainly put up rookie numbers reflecting a player who will develop into an all-star.   Is Dunn a future all-star?  I'm asking this legitimately as someone who doesn't follow College ball.  Does Dunn have any hope of developing into an all-star?  Because I see that at Okafor's age, Dunn was averaging 3.8 points, 5 assists, 2.5 rebounds, 1.8 steals with 31% shooting on the College level.  Is that more impressive than Okafor putting up per-36 numbers of  21 points, 8.4 rebounds, 1.4 blocks with 51% shooting as a 20 year old rookie on the NBA level? 

Worst-case scenario, Okafor is Al Jefferson.  What's Dunn's worst-case scenario?

Thing is, there's a chance a month from now we'll have more insight into this draft and realize there's a Porzingus type rising up unexpectedly.  That's possible.  You might even see SImmons or Ingram fall out of the Top 2 (as did with Okafor last season).   So maybe there's a future star that will be available.  Maybe that's 22 year old Kris Dunn.

But there's also a chance Okafor will be better than every single player in this draft.  And he's already shown rare NBA skills that will make him desirable to many teams if Philly decides to move him.  All I'm saying is, if I'm running Philly, I wouldn't bother trading a guaranteed blue chip like him for a scratch ticket unless I was REALLY sure about this draft.  I'd instead look at moving him for an established young player that I've seen play in the NBA already.   That's why I threw out the Suns as a team.  They have Bledsoe and Knight at PG already (as well as Devin Booker at SG) and they have the 4th pick in a guard-heavy 3-8 range.  Seems to me, trading Knight or Bledsoe for Okafor would make some sense for both teams.  Suns could use an elite big man prospect.  Philly could use a decent guard that they know can perform on the NBA level.

FWIW, I went to a Suns forum and questioned if they'd target one of Philly's bigs.  Apparently a bunch of them were already in favor of doing that and brought up an interesting point I hadn't considered... Colangelo has a good relationship with the Suns.  Two Suns fans even suggested they'd be willing to trade Brandon Knight AND the #4 pick for Okafor. 

Also interesting is that a couple of the Suns fans suggested they should trade Brandon Knight for Dario Saric.   I guess they aren't that high on Brandon Knight.  That surprises me a bit, because if Philly decides to start dumping bigs, I'd expect them to target an established player like Brandon Knight over a crapshoot draft pick.  Knight is only 24 years old and averaged 20 points, 5 assists, 4 rebounds and 1.2 steals last season.   Stuff like this is why I continue to think Philly is one of the most fascinating teams this Summer.

So take that for what it's worth.

Suns would never make that offer. I won't believe it until you have an actual source instead of some Suns Fan forum board. Like seriously, who cares what fans are willing to offer.

Exactly.  It goes ways.  I put as much stock into what the Suns fans are willing to offer for Okafor as I do the fans here.

For all we know, Boston would be willing to trade Marcus Smart and #3 for Okafor and feel like they robbed Philly.  For all we know, Philly is going to trade Okafor for Jimmy Butler.   We're all just trying to guess.