List your Top 10 Defenders in the league and explain why you chose them.

[mmmmm]

Also, if you want to get real deep into this.  Of all the starters throughout the league, can you list the 10 worst defenders?

A lot of rookies and older players. I'll keep going til I get 2 non-rooks / old guys at each spot.

In order - first is worst

PG - Calderon (old), Clarkson (2nd year), Mudiay (rookie), D-Rose, Isaiah
SG - [edit: Harden] L.Williams, E.Gordon, M.Ellis, CJ McCollum
SF - Kobe (old), Jabari Parker (2nd year), JJ (old), T-Evans
PF - Dirk (old), K-Love, Scola (old), Dieng
 C - J.Okafor (rookie), Big Al, Monroe, Sully

Considering that Isaiah and Sully were 40% of the Celtic's starting lineup (and Isaiah was the top player by minutes), it must be some sort of miracle that Boston ended up with the 4th best Defensive Rating.

Or ... maybe those two aren't quite as awful on defense as you assert?

[alldaboston]

I'll take any of the lakers young guys for worst defender.

Russell, Clarkson, and Randle are all pretty bad

[LarBrd33]

Guards

Paul, Rubio, Smart

Wings

Kawhi, George, Iguodala

Bigs

Draymond, Jordan, Millsap, Whiteside


For bigs, I look at Defensive Rebound Percentage, Block Percentage, and Defensive Plus/Minus / DRPM.  Guys who dominate the boards, discourage shots inside, and have the mobility to contain pick and rolls and recover to the rim. 

Dray and Millsap are special in their ability as 4s to cover multiple positions, rebound, and force turnovers.

For wings and guards, it's a lot of eye test plus Steal Percentage and Defensive Plus Minus / DRPM.


I listed more bigs because bigs matter more defensively.  Wings matter a lot these days, as well, but there aren't a lot of really excellent all-around wing defenders.

Whiteside has some mixed reviews, but ultimately he's a top defensive rebounder and shot-blocker and that matters a lot.

I think for guards it's mostly a question of how good a job guys do at forcing turnovers and making ball-handlers work harder to get where they want to go.  I don't think guards can really consistently "stop" anyone. 

Guards that compete on the boards against bigger players also can help a team prevent offensive rebounds.


Worst defenders in starting lineups

Kobe  ---> worst and it's not even close
Rose
Gallo
Gordon
Russell / Clarkson
Deron
Kyrie
Booker
Wiggins
Okafor

Pho, I appreciate that you actually gave some criteria for what use to determine.  It seems to me you could create an equation using some of those factors.  Based on that equation, do you feel your list would hold true?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately about how our perception of who is a good/bad defender seems to often be baseless. It's also often an obsolete opinion.  Rondo comes to mind as a guy who built an early perception as being a great defender (so much so that Dallas brought him in with that in mind), but there's been mounting evidence he's atrocious defensively.  Still, it's hard to shake the perception one way or another once it's built.  It's widely believed Julius Randle is atrocious defensively, but in the few Laker games I watched, he was actually defending aggressively and making stops.  With offense, you can tell when a guy like Marcus Smart is struggling vs when he's showing improvement.  With defense, it seems to be an on/off switch that fans arbitrarily flip without much justification.   Using some of those specific stats, can you justify your list?

We can pinpoint certain things on offense that determine a good offensive player vs bad offensive player.  With defense, it's too much a matter of opinion for my comfort level.  Is Marcus Smart really a top 3 guard?  I'm not denying it.  I just want to see someone prove it by using actual evidence.

[GreenFaith1819]

Guards

Paul, Rubio, Smart

Wings

Kawhi, George, Iguodala

Bigs

Draymond, Jordan, Millsap, Whiteside


For bigs, I look at Defensive Rebound Percentage, Block Percentage, and Defensive Plus/Minus / DRPM.  Guys who dominate the boards, discourage shots inside, and have the mobility to contain pick and rolls and recover to the rim. 

Dray and Millsap are special in their ability as 4s to cover multiple positions, rebound, and force turnovers.

For wings and guards, it's a lot of eye test plus Steal Percentage and Defensive Plus Minus / DRPM.


I listed more bigs because bigs matter more defensively.  Wings matter a lot these days, as well, but there aren't a lot of really excellent all-around wing defenders.

Whiteside has some mixed reviews, but ultimately he's a top defensive rebounder and shot-blocker and that matters a lot.

I think for guards it's mostly a question of how good a job guys do at forcing turnovers and making ball-handlers work harder to get where they want to go.  I don't think guards can really consistently "stop" anyone. 

Guards that compete on the boards against bigger players also can help a team prevent offensive rebounds.


Worst defenders in starting lineups

Kobe  ---> worst and it's not even close
Rose
Gallo
Gordon
Russell / Clarkson
Deron
Kyrie
Booker
Wiggins
Okafor

Pho, I appreciate that you actually gave some criteria for what use to determine.  It seems to me you could create an equation using some of those factors.  Based on that equation, do you feel your list would hold true?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately about how our perception of who is a good/bad defender seems to often be baseless. It's also often an obsolete opinion.  Rondo comes to mind as a guy who built an early perception as being a great defender (so much so that Dallas brought him in with that in mind), but there's been mounting evidence he's atrocious defensively.  Still, it's hard to shake the perception one way or another once it's built.  It's widely believed Julius Randle is atrocious defensively, but in the few Laker games I watched, he was actually defending aggressively and making stops.  With offense, you can tell when a guy like Marcus Smart is struggling vs when he's showing improvement.  With defense, it seems to be an on/off switch that fans arbitrarily flip without much justification.   Using some of those specific stats, can you justify your list?

We can pinpoint certain things on offense that determine a good offensive player vs bad offensive player.  With defense, it's too much a matter of opinion for my comfort level.  Is Marcus Smart really a top 3 guard?  I'm not denying it.  I just want to see someone prove it by using actual evidence.

LOL you're a funny guy.

Here you go.

Honors
2004 McDonald's All American
2006-07 NBA All-Rookie (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01.htm

[jpotter33]

Guards

Paul, Rubio, Smart

Wings

Kawhi, George, Iguodala

Bigs

Draymond, Jordan, Millsap, Whiteside


For bigs, I look at Defensive Rebound Percentage, Block Percentage, and Defensive Plus/Minus / DRPM.  Guys who dominate the boards, discourage shots inside, and have the mobility to contain pick and rolls and recover to the rim. 

Dray and Millsap are special in their ability as 4s to cover multiple positions, rebound, and force turnovers.

For wings and guards, it's a lot of eye test plus Steal Percentage and Defensive Plus Minus / DRPM.


I listed more bigs because bigs matter more defensively.  Wings matter a lot these days, as well, but there aren't a lot of really excellent all-around wing defenders.

Whiteside has some mixed reviews, but ultimately he's a top defensive rebounder and shot-blocker and that matters a lot.

I think for guards it's mostly a question of how good a job guys do at forcing turnovers and making ball-handlers work harder to get where they want to go.  I don't think guards can really consistently "stop" anyone. 

Guards that compete on the boards against bigger players also can help a team prevent offensive rebounds.


Worst defenders in starting lineups

Kobe  ---> worst and it's not even close
Rose
Gallo
Gordon
Russell / Clarkson
Deron
Kyrie
Booker
Wiggins
Okafor

Pho, I appreciate that you actually gave some criteria for what use to determine.  It seems to me you could create an equation using some of those factors.  Based on that equation, do you feel your list would hold true?

I've been thinking about this a lot lately about how our perception of who is a good/bad defender seems to often be baseless. It's also often an obsolete opinion.  Rondo comes to mind as a guy who built an early perception as being a great defender (so much so that Dallas brought him in with that in mind), but there's been mounting evidence he's atrocious defensively.  Still, it's hard to shake the perception one way or another once it's built.  It's widely believed Julius Randle is atrocious defensively, but in the few Laker games I watched, he was actually defending aggressively and making stops.  With offense, you can tell when a guy like Marcus Smart is struggling vs when he's showing improvement.  With defense, it seems to be an on/off switch that fans arbitrarily flip without much justification.   Using some of those specific stats, can you justify your list?

We can pinpoint certain things on offense that determine a good offensive player vs bad offensive player.  With defense, it's too much a matter of opinion for my comfort level.  Is Marcus Smart really a top 3 guard?  I'm not denying it.  I just want to see someone prove it by using actual evidence.

LOL you're a funny guy.

Here you go.

Honors
2004 McDonald's All American
2006-07 NBA All-Rookie (2nd)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2010-11 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2011-12 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2011-12 NBA All-NBA (3rd)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01.htm

LarBrd33, I think it was more that Rondo WAS an excellent defender earlier in his career, which is something that would be very hard to argue against, yet later in his career he stopped putting out much effort defensively when he had an expanded role offensively. Post-2012 is when he really started to slip defensively, and by the time he was traded from Boston he looked like he didn't even care about that end of the court. I know there were a ton of us on here that would bemoan having to watch 2013 and 2014 Rondo constantly get stuck on picks and let his guy drive right past him while he'd try to reach around the guy's back to knock the ball away.

[PhoSita]

Also, if you want to get real deep into this.  Of all the starters throughout the league, can you list the 10 worst defenders?

A lot of rookies and older players. I'll keep going til I get 2 non-rooks / old guys at each spot.

In order - first is worst

PG - Calderon (old), Clarkson (2nd year), Mudiay (rookie), D-Rose, Isaiah
SG - [edit: Harden] L.Williams, E.Gordon, M.Ellis, CJ McCollum
SF - Kobe (old), Jabari Parker (2nd year), JJ (old), T-Evans
PF - Dirk (old), K-Love, Scola (old), Dieng
 C - J.Okafor (rookie), Big Al, Monroe, Sully

Considering that Isaiah and Sully were 40% of the Celtic's starting lineup (and Isaiah was the top player by minutes), it must be some sort of miracle that Boston ended up with the 4th best Defensive Rating.

Or ... maybe those two aren't quite as awful on defense as you assert?

I think Isaiah is a great example of how simply giving a lot of effort and working within a team scheme can mean a lot more than size or natural talents.

With Sully, similar thing, plus he's pretty much the only big we've got who's good on the defensive boards, so he made a big difference for the defense in that respect even though he has some glaring issues in other respects.

[2short]

There are soooooo many bad defenders in the league or guys who don't care (harden)

Off top of head in no order:
Bradley, smart, Leonard, tony Allen, deandre Jordan, jimmy butler, draymond green, Marc gasol, Chris Paul, iggy(?)

[Csfan1984]

My 2 at each position.
PG-Wall, Smart
SG-AB, Butler
SF-Kawhi, LeBron
PF-Green, Davis
C-Jordan, Drummond

Forgot to add things I feel carry weight. Rebs, on ball defense, steals/deflections, drawing fouls O&D, quickness, play recognition/help D, and instinct are important to me. An occasional block is always great too.

[Eddie20]

Guards
Bradley
Smart
Beverley
Paul
Conley

(Thought of Rubio and Lowry here, but went with Conley).

Swingmen
Leonard
Butler
George
James
Crowder

(Tony Allen has lost a step and gets overrated a lot on reputation. Klay and Winslow were in strong consideration.)


Bigs
Davis
D. Green
Gobert
Drummond
Jordan

(excluded Whiteside because of his knack of not contesting open perimeter shooters and feel that his post D isn't as strong as a Drummond, Gobert, or Jordan. A healthy M. Gasol easily makes by top 5 bigs.)

[LarBrd33]

My 2 at each position.
PG-Wall, Smart
SG-AB, Butler
SF-Kawhi, LeBron
PF-Green, Davis
C-Jordan, Drummond

Forgot to add things I feel carry weight. Rebs, on ball defense, steals/deflections, drawing fouls O&D, quickness, play recognition/help D, and instinct are important to me. An occasional block is always great too.

Using your qualifications, can you demonstrate how Marcus Smart and Avery Bradley are top 2 for their positions? 

I'm seeing a lot of people listing their qualifications ("on ball defense" for instance), but they aren't showing how the player compares with the rest of the league.  Can you conclusively show how Avery Bradley is best on ball defender in the league?  Isn't there a stat for it?  Does he rank 1st in that stat? 

What I'm still seeing is just opinion-based.  Most of this is "eye test".  "I think this guy is the best, because I watch him and he looks like the best".  It's strange how massive the disparity is between our understanding of offensive excellence and defensive excellence.  I can sit here and tell you Steph Curry was the best offensive player in the league, because I look at things like scoring efficiency and total points... but then I can conclusively back that up by showing you how he ranks in things like TS%, eFG%, etc.

Nowhere in this entire two page thread has anyone backed up their list with actual evidence.  Pho listed some qualifications that seemingly we could actually look up and analyze. But I don't see a single stat in this thread so far.  That's really interesting to me.   The closest thing I've seen to a "stat" is someone listing off Rondo's Defensive awards.   So he was the best, because someone else said he's the best... and the stat to back that up is that someone said he was the best.

To be clear, I'm not trying to discredit anyone's list.  These might be totally on-point.  I'd just like to expand our defensive knowledge beyond word-of-mouth, the arbitrary "eye test", and general perception.

If Smart and Bradley are genuinely the two best at their positions, there most be some evidence to support that.  That's a pretty big deal if true.  Can anyone prove it?

[Csfan1984]

My 2 at each position.
PG-Wall, Smart
SG-AB, Butler
SF-Kawhi, LeBron
PF-Green, Davis
C-Jordan, Drummond

Forgot to add things I feel carry weight. Rebs, on ball defense, steals/deflections, drawing fouls O&D, quickness, play recognition/help D, and instinct are important to me. An occasional block is always great too.

Using your qualifications, can you demonstrate how Marcus Smart and Avery Bradley are top 2 for their positions? 

I'm seeing a lot of people listing their qualifications ("on ball defense" for instance), but they aren't showing how the player compares with the rest of the league.  Can you conclusively show how Avery Bradley is best on ball defender in the league?  Isn't there a stat for it?  Does he rank 1st in that stat? 

What I'm still seeing is just opinion-based.  Most of this is "eye test".  "I think this guy is the best, because I watch him and he looks like the best".  It's strange how massive the disparity is between our understanding of offensive excellence and defensive excellence.  I can sit here and tell you Steph Curry was the best offensive player in the league, because I look at things like scoring efficiency and total points... but then I can conclusively back that up by showing you how he ranks in things like TS%, eFG%, etc.

Nowhere in this entire two page thread has anyone backed up their list with actual evidence.  Pho listed some qualifications that seemingly we could actually look up and analyze. But I don't see a single stat in this thread so far.  That's really interesting to me.   The closest thing I've seen to a "stat" is someone listing off Rondo's Defensive awards.   So he was the best, because someone else said he's the best... and the stat to back that up is that someone said he was the best.

To be clear, I'm not trying to discredit anyone's list.  These might be totally on-point.  I'd just like to expand our defensive knowledge beyond word-of-mouth, the arbitrary "eye test", and general perception.

If Smart and Bradley are genuinely the two best at their positions, there most be some evidence to support that.  That's a pretty big deal if true.  Can anyone prove it?

Defense is 75% eye test unfortunately. We have to remember on defense there are a lot of team variables. Just on the ball D we have to account for fighting through picks. Off the ball screens and holds. Then stats can be skewed an example is the Smart on Milsap. Some go by stats have him scoring 4pts when Smart was "Assigned to him". Others go by 2 points scored while being covered. Some might also say Milsap got away with a push on Smart so he got Zero points. Then there is the help defense which is a whole other judgment call. Did a guy call out a pick? Did he not show hard enough? How much help is a defender getting from his teammates? It's more difficult than a +/-.  This is why it is 75% eye test IMO. I think you just have to go with majority opinions on a guy. I do know that that can be bad going off opinions but it is what it is.

[Celtic Fan Forever]

My top 10

Guards: CP3, Bradley, Wall

Wings: Leonard, LeBron, PG-13

Bigs: Draymond, Deandre Jordan, Ant Davis, Gobert

Honorable Mentions:

Smart
Crowder
Butler
Rubio
Beverley
Tony Allen
Bledsoe
Klay Thompson
Iguodala
Whiteside
Marc Gasol

[loco_91]

Guards

Paul, Rubio, Smart

Wings

Kawhi, George, Iguodala

Bigs

Draymond, Jordan, Millsap, Whiteside

Spot on, TP. I might replace Whiteside and Millsap with Gobert and Oladipo.

[PhoSita]

Guards

Paul, Rubio, Smart

Wings

Kawhi, George, Iguodala

Bigs

Draymond, Jordan, Millsap, Whiteside

Spot on, TP. I might replace Whiteside and Millsap with Gobert and Oladipo.

I don't think Oladipo is anywhere close to Millsap.  I was close on Gobert but ultimately went with Whiteside because he's so dominant in block percentage, defensive rating, and defensive rebounding percentage.

[KG Living Legend]

 #1 Kawai Leonard Back to back Defensive MVP
 #2 Draymond Green I think he can guard anyone
 #3 Tim Duncan. 2nd in DRating 95.7 and 1st in Defensive plus minus at 5.0
 #4 Rudy Gobert. 2nd in Defensive plus minus at 4.8 7'8" Wingspan, changes the game inside.
 #5 Deandre Jordan
 #6 Whiteside
 #7 Milsap
 #8 Andre Dummond
 #9 Nerlens Noel
 #10 Paul George