IT4 vs Damian Lillard: Who's the better player?

[jade88]

I've argued with people as of late in favor of IT4 (like a true homer), but part of me thinks It's efficiency and 4th quarter scoring indeed beats out Lillard?

I'd love to get some feedback on this one.

[PhoSita]

They're pretty close.

Dame's a better outside shooter.  He's a slightly better free throw shooter.  He's a better rebounder.

Isaiah is a better finisher near the basket.  He's a slightly better defender, which means he's a much more focused / high effort defender given the size difference.


Also, they both have looked pretty overmatched trying to carry a team without a lot of help in the playoffs.  Isaiah especially so (through 6 playoff games he's 33% from the field).

Overall, if you were choosing one or the other to build around, you'd have to choose Dame because he's younger, slightly better overall, and likely to play at a high level for longer.

[Moranis]

This is silly homer nonsense.

[PhoSita]

This is silly homer nonsense.

By the numbers, they're pretty close.

Both are relied upon a great deal by their respective teams to make offense happen.

[jbpats]

Lillard without question. Anybody who says Thomas is just being a homer.

Whose a better value is a different question. Lillard has a max contract and IT makes sub 8 mil.. When taking that into consideration Thomas is by far the better deal of the two.

If we are talking straight playing ability and natural talent its easily Lillard.

[Moranis]

This is silly homer nonsense.

By the numbers, they're pretty close.

Both are relied upon a great deal by their respective teams to make offense happen.

Lillard scored more with better shooting percentages.  Lillard gets more assists and a fair amount more rebounds.  Lillard isn't quite the defensive liability that Thomas is because Lillard is 6'3" (which is rather big for a PG).  VORP, BPM, etc. all favor Lillard. 

I firmly maintain this is homer nonsense.

[slamtheking]

I'd take Lillard without thinking twice.  better fascillitator on offense and not as much of a liability on D.

Comparable offensively in terms of overall scoring ability.

[alldaboston]

Dame.

[Vox_Populi]

This is silly homer nonsense.

By the numbers, they're pretty close.

Both are relied upon a great deal by their respective teams to make offense happen.

Lillard scored more with better shooting percentages.  Lillard gets more assists and a fair amount more rebounds.  Lillard isn't quite the defensive liability that Thomas is because Lillard is 6'3" (which is rather big for a PG).  VORP, BPM, etc. all favor Lillard. 

I firmly maintain this is homer nonsense.

Lillard scored more in more minutes. And Thomas had a marginally higher TS% - he was more efficient overall. Thomas had 0.2 less assists per possession, and about one less rebound. Big deal. Lillard ranked worse on defense in BPM and RPM. If you go by total BPM or RPM, Lillard wasn't even a point per 100 possessions better than Thomas.

It's definitely not homer nonsense and I don't think Thomas is better than Lillard.

[Dino Pitino]

This is silly homer nonsense.

By the numbers, they're pretty close.

Both are relied upon a great deal by their respective teams to make offense happen.

Absurdly close career wise in most ways.

http://bkref.com/tiny/ygjvB

[indeedproceed]

This is silly homer nonsense.

By the numbers, they're pretty close.

Both are relied upon a great deal by their respective teams to make offense happen.

Lillard scored more with better shooting percentages.  Lillard gets more assists and a fair amount more rebounds.  Lillard isn't quite the defensive liability that Thomas is because Lillard is 6'3" (which is rather big for a PG).  VORP, BPM, etc. all favor Lillard. 

I firmly maintain this is homer nonsense.

I support this hot take.

[PhoSita]

This is silly homer nonsense.

By the numbers, they're pretty close.

Both are relied upon a great deal by their respective teams to make offense happen.

Lillard scored more with better shooting percentages.  Lillard gets more assists and a fair amount more rebounds.  Lillard isn't quite the defensive liability that Thomas is because Lillard is 6'3" (which is rather big for a PG).  VORP, BPM, etc. all favor Lillard. 

I firmly maintain this is homer nonsense.

Well, if you'll read what I originally posted, you basically just agreed with me.

So yeah.


By the numbers, as DP says, they're quite close. 

I tend to think that the numbers don't quite capture the difference.  There's a reason Dame is regarded as one of the league's rising stars, while Thomas I think is perceived to be in the same tier as guys like Kemba Walker and Reggie Jackson.


Lillard has a decided edge, but the difference isn't that large right now.  If it's a matter of who you'd rather have under contract long term, it's Lillard without any question.

[indeedproceed]

This is silly homer nonsense.

By the numbers, they're pretty close.

Both are relied upon a great deal by their respective teams to make offense happen.

Lillard scored more with better shooting percentages.  Lillard gets more assists and a fair amount more rebounds.  Lillard isn't quite the defensive liability that Thomas is because Lillard is 6'3" (which is rather big for a PG).  VORP, BPM, etc. all favor Lillard. 

I firmly maintain this is homer nonsense.

Well, if you'll read what I originally posted, you basically just agreed with me.

So yeah.

I read what you wrote, you equated them in the near-term, giving Lillard the edge in the long-view. Moranis doesn't equate them in the near-term.

[Atzar]

Agree with Pho - they're fairly close right now.  Lillard is slightly better according to eFG%, mostly on the weight of his three-point shooting.  IT is better from inside the arc and gets to the line slightly more, but not enough to completely close the gap.  Lillard is a better rebounder and roughly equivalent as a passer - higher AST% at the cost of higher TOV%.

Also, while Lillard is 6'3", that doesn't automatically make him a better defender than IT.  Most defensive metrics liked IT more than Lillard this year, though both are liabilities. 

WS/48 likes IT.  VORP and BPM like Lillard.  Overall Lillard gets the edge, though it's small. 

[Moranis]

This is silly homer nonsense.

By the numbers, they're pretty close.

Both are relied upon a great deal by their respective teams to make offense happen.

Lillard scored more with better shooting percentages.  Lillard gets more assists and a fair amount more rebounds.  Lillard isn't quite the defensive liability that Thomas is because Lillard is 6'3" (which is rather big for a PG).  VORP, BPM, etc. all favor Lillard. 

I firmly maintain this is homer nonsense.

Lillard scored more in more minutes. And Thomas had a marginally higher TS% - he was more efficient overall. Thomas had 0.2 less assists per possession, and about one less rebound. Big deal. Lillard ranked worse on defense in BPM and RPM. If you go by total BPM or RPM, Lillard wasn't even a point per 100 possessions better than Thomas.

It's definitely not homer nonsense and I don't think Thomas is better than Lillard.

Of course it is.  Thomas has the worst DRTG on the Celtics.  Lillard is about average for DRTG on the Blazers.  That is where some of those numbers get skewed because Thomas is bailed out a great deal defensively by just how good his teammates are defensively.  The Blazers second best player McCollum has the exact same DRTG as Lillard and is 5 worse in ORTG.