Dragan Bender

[mmmmm]

Folks also shouldn't be looking at Bender as somehow benefiting from a "Portzingis effect" because Bender has been getting tracked & scouted since he emerged on the Adidas EuroCamp scene as a 15 year old three years ago and was added to 2016 Mock draft projections well before Porzingis sailed up last year's draft.

I don't think Bender was anywhere close to a top 3 projected pick before Porzingis happened.

True, but he was already projecting to be in the lottery before he was even 17 years old (DraftExpress had him at #13 way back in September of 2014).

My point is that he is someone who has been extremely closely tracked & scouted for a long time.  And he's been accessible to watch because he's been in a pro league.  He's not coming out of nowhere or who has been mostly playing out of the eyes of pro scouts like Exum did and Maker this last year.

Despite that close scrutiny, pretty much every mock draft board has him going in the top 5, and most at #3.

I do agree with the comment that his final ranking will largely be driven by his combine performance and private team workouts.    I think that will prove true of most players.

Fortunately, Danny, by virtue of his having picks all over the draft, will be able to take a close look at pretty much every notable player in the draft and slot them into a tier somewhere in the vicinity of one of his picks.   No agent is going to let his client pass on an invite to work out for Boston this year.   Especially after what happened with Rozier.

While I like what I've personally seen of him, I won't try to pretend that I know assertively that Bender will be a success or a bust or whether Danny will take him or not.  I will trust, though, that Danny will make a more informed assessment than most of what I'm reading on this blog.

[budMovin]

Everyone of these guys produced in games better than Bender.  Some of these guys scored 20 PPG in college.   Something Dragan has never done.   One could make an argument for years our amateur college guys were better given the Olympics too. 

Here are Porzingas stats in Europe.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/kristaps-porzingis-1.html

Here are Dragan's

http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/dragan-bender-1.html

Here are his supposed better Israeli stats

http://basketball.realgm.com/player/Dragan-Bender/Summary/41582

Pretty underwhelming folks.  There is more hype than substance, the above are stats not opinion.

Check out Gasol's stats. Even more underwhelming at the same age.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/pau-gasol-1.html

I am not advocating drafting or not drafting Bender, as I have not seen him play. With that being said, the stats don't always paint the whole picture with the European bigs... Especially those who are children growing into their body, while playing against grown men.

Edit: Actually look at both Gasol brothers.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/marc-gasol-1.html

[Quetzalcoatl]

Here is a mock from June 2015 that has Bender going 5th.  There's plenty of proof he was liked before Porzingis' first game as a Knick.

http://mweb.cbssports.com/ncaab/eye-on-college-basketball/25225842/predicting-2016-nba-draft-lottery-next-year-should-be-good-for-sec

Bender has also been getting minutes for his team lately and is playing well.  I would like him with the third pick.

[LooseCannon]

This is the whole thing with Dragan Bender.  He doesn't have any real major flaws, but he doesn't have any real major stand-out talents either.   The biggest selling point is the fact that he is only 18 years old, and so you hope he can surprise us all and take his game to a whole other level.  That's a big risk though.  He may well just develop into a pretty good all round player who isn't great at anything.

I think it's very unlikely Bender will be a complete bust.  He should (at the very least) be a quality starting center in the NBA for many years.  I just question his upside - does he really have the talent to develop into a big star?  I'm not so sure.

This is where bringing a player in and getting into his head matters.  If he has an elite motor, bbiq, and work ethic, he can be as valuable as Kawhi Leonard.  If he doesn't, he could be a bust.  If Bender is strong in those areas, i would take him over a big man with prototypical size and elite athleticism who is questionable between the ears.

Kawhi Leonard is really not comparable to Bender though.

Leonard always had a ridiculous wingspan for the SF spot, outstanding athleticism, excellent physical strength, and excellent mental toughness (with a 'never back down' attitude).

Guys who have those attributes tend to become outstanding defensive players, but Bender lacks in a few of those areas.  He greatly lacks physical strength, his wingspan is actually only good (rather than amazing) at the PF spot, and he doesn't seem to have a lot of mental toughness.  Even if his motor and work ethic are high, he still looks like somebody who could be easily pushed around - something you cannot say about Leonard ever.

Before somebody questions my comment about his length it's worth noting that Bender is 7'1" with a 7'2" wingspan.  Jared Sullinger is only 6'9" and has a 7'1" wingspan.  Bender certainly doesn't have a disadvantage in terms of wingspan, but he doesn't have the type of advantage a lot of people seem to think he has.  Dwight Howard for example is only 6'10" and yet he has a 7'5" wingspan.  Lemarcus Aldridge is 6'11" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Pau Gasol is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Tim Duncan is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Zach Randolph is 6'9" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  From memory Dirk also has a wingspan in the 7'5" range.

There are a lot of big men in this league who are a lot longer then Bender is, and there are certainly a lot of big men who are a lot stronger then Bender is, so unless he can prove he has superior skill (which I'm not seeing at this point) he might well struggle to score and defend against elite NBA bigs.

Simmons has the same problem as far as length goes (even moreso, in fact) but he can somewhat make up for that with elite physical strength, elite athleticism and a rediculous array of skills.

People compare Bender to Porzingis, but Poirzingis is 7'3"+ with a 7'6" wingspan and is already a very skilled shooter and a very capable scorer.  Bender lacks that major physical advantage, and looks less skilled (although he is two years younger then Porzingis too).

I'm not saying that Bender is directly comparable to Leonard.  What I am saying is that Leonard, while a guy with a huge wingspan, was seen as a guy with solid athleticism, but nothing elite when it came to strength, speed, or leaping ability.  At the time of the draft, he was seen as a jack of all trades kind of player who did a lot of things well, but not spectacularly well at anything.  He was seen as a strong rebounder and expected to be a good defender, but questions about which position he would play made it unclear how those skills would translate to the NBA.

I suspect that Kawhi Leonard's brain in Dragan Bender's body is a superstar in the NBA.  Kawhi Leonard has an elite brain, so it is unlikely Bender is that strong mentally.  Given that, I'd still take Dragan Bender's brain in Dragan Bender's body over Fab Melo's brain in Deandre Jordan's body, is what I'm saying.

[Tr1boy]

This is the whole thing with Dragan Bender.  He doesn't have any real major flaws, but he doesn't have any real major stand-out talents either.   The biggest selling point is the fact that he is only 18 years old, and so you hope he can surprise us all and take his game to a whole other level.  That's a big risk though.  He may well just develop into a pretty good all round player who isn't great at anything.

I think it's very unlikely Bender will be a complete bust.  He should (at the very least) be a quality starting center in the NBA for many years.  I just question his upside - does he really have the talent to develop into a big star?  I'm not so sure.

This is where bringing a player in and getting into his head matters.  If he has an elite motor, bbiq, and work ethic, he can be as valuable as Kawhi Leonard.  If he doesn't, he could be a bust.  If Bender is strong in those areas, i would take him over a big man with prototypical size and elite athleticism who is questionable between the ears.

Kawhi Leonard is really not comparable to Bender though.

Leonard always had a ridiculous wingspan for the SF spot, outstanding athleticism, excellent physical strength, and excellent mental toughness (with a 'never back down' attitude).

Guys who have those attributes tend to become outstanding defensive players, but Bender lacks in a few of those areas.  He greatly lacks physical strength, his wingspan is actually only good (rather than amazing) at the PF spot, and he doesn't seem to have a lot of mental toughness.  Even if his motor and work ethic are high, he still looks like somebody who could be easily pushed around - something you cannot say about Leonard ever.

Before somebody questions my comment about his length it's worth noting that Bender is 7'1" with a 7'2" wingspan.  Jared Sullinger is only 6'9" and has a 7'1" wingspan.  Bender certainly doesn't have a disadvantage in terms of wingspan, but he doesn't have the type of advantage a lot of people seem to think he has.  Dwight Howard for example is only 6'10" and yet he has a 7'5" wingspan.  Lemarcus Aldridge is 6'11" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Pau Gasol is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Tim Duncan is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Zach Randolph is 6'9" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  From memory Dirk also has a wingspan in the 7'5" range.

There are a lot of big men in this league who are a lot longer then Bender is, and there are certainly a lot of big men who are a lot stronger then Bender is, so unless he can prove he has superior skill (which I'm not seeing at this point) he might well struggle to score and defend against elite NBA bigs.

Simmons has the same problem as far as length goes (even moreso, in fact) but he can somewhat make up for that with elite physical strength, elite athleticism and a rediculous array of skills.

People compare Bender to Porzingis, but Poirzingis is 7'3"+ with a 7'6" wingspan and is already a very skilled shooter and a very capable scorer.  Bender lacks that major physical advantage, and looks less skilled (although he is two years younger then Porzingis too).

I'm not saying that Bender is directly comparable to Leonard.  What I am saying is that Leonard, while a guy with a huge wingspan, was seen as a guy with solid athleticism, but nothing elite when it came to strength, speed, or leaping ability.  At the time of the draft, he was seen as a jack of all trades kind of player who did a lot of things well, but not spectacularly well at anything.  He was seen as a strong rebounder and expected to be a good defender, but questions about which position he would play made it unclear how those skills would translate to the NBA.

I suspect that Kawhi Leonard's brain in Dragan Bender's body is a superstar in the NBA.  Kawhi Leonard has an elite brain, so it is unlikely Bender is that strong mentally.  Given that, I'd still take Dragan Bender's brain in Dragan Bender's body over Fab Melo's brain in Deandre Jordan's body, is what I'm saying.

Now I have seen it all.  Comparing bender to Leonard

Leonard Jack of all trades type ? The guy is a top 5 calibre player in the league.  I will carry you on my back type

We already know how dominating he can be on the defensive end. He can be just as dominating on the offensive end , but the Spurs don't play a one man show type of ball usually. They don't have to .   but I have seen plenty if times when they are struggling ,Leonard taking over

Bender is no Leonard. Not right now . maybe not ever

Cmon

[mmmmm]

This is the whole thing with Dragan Bender.  He doesn't have any real major flaws, but he doesn't have any real major stand-out talents either.   The biggest selling point is the fact that he is only 18 years old, and so you hope he can surprise us all and take his game to a whole other level.  That's a big risk though.  He may well just develop into a pretty good all round player who isn't great at anything.

I think it's very unlikely Bender will be a complete bust.  He should (at the very least) be a quality starting center in the NBA for many years.  I just question his upside - does he really have the talent to develop into a big star?  I'm not so sure.

This is where bringing a player in and getting into his head matters.  If he has an elite motor, bbiq, and work ethic, he can be as valuable as Kawhi Leonard.  If he doesn't, he could be a bust.  If Bender is strong in those areas, i would take him over a big man with prototypical size and elite athleticism who is questionable between the ears.

Kawhi Leonard is really not comparable to Bender though.

Leonard always had a ridiculous wingspan for the SF spot, outstanding athleticism, excellent physical strength, and excellent mental toughness (with a 'never back down' attitude).

Guys who have those attributes tend to become outstanding defensive players, but Bender lacks in a few of those areas.  He greatly lacks physical strength, his wingspan is actually only good (rather than amazing) at the PF spot, and he doesn't seem to have a lot of mental toughness.  Even if his motor and work ethic are high, he still looks like somebody who could be easily pushed around - something you cannot say about Leonard ever.

Before somebody questions my comment about his length it's worth noting that Bender is 7'1" with a 7'2" wingspan.  Jared Sullinger is only 6'9" and has a 7'1" wingspan.  Bender certainly doesn't have a disadvantage in terms of wingspan, but he doesn't have the type of advantage a lot of people seem to think he has.  Dwight Howard for example is only 6'10" and yet he has a 7'5" wingspan.  Lemarcus Aldridge is 6'11" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Pau Gasol is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Tim Duncan is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Zach Randolph is 6'9" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  From memory Dirk also has a wingspan in the 7'5" range.

There are a lot of big men in this league who are a lot longer then Bender is, and there are certainly a lot of big men who are a lot stronger then Bender is, so unless he can prove he has superior skill (which I'm not seeing at this point) he might well struggle to score and defend against elite NBA bigs.

Simmons has the same problem as far as length goes (even moreso, in fact) but he can somewhat make up for that with elite physical strength, elite athleticism and a rediculous array of skills.

People compare Bender to Porzingis, but Poirzingis is 7'3"+ with a 7'6" wingspan and is already a very skilled shooter and a very capable scorer.  Bender lacks that major physical advantage, and looks less skilled (although he is two years younger then Porzingis too).

I'm not saying that Bender is directly comparable to Leonard.  What I am saying is that Leonard, while a guy with a huge wingspan, was seen as a guy with solid athleticism, but nothing elite when it came to strength, speed, or leaping ability.  At the time of the draft, he was seen as a jack of all trades kind of player who did a lot of things well, but not spectacularly well at anything.  He was seen as a strong rebounder and expected to be a good defender, but questions about which position he would play made it unclear how those skills would translate to the NBA.

I suspect that Kawhi Leonard's brain in Dragan Bender's body is a superstar in the NBA.  Kawhi Leonard has an elite brain, so it is unlikely Bender is that strong mentally.  Given that, I'd still take Dragan Bender's brain in Dragan Bender's body over Fab Melo's brain in Deandre Jordan's body, is what I'm saying.

Now I have seen it all.  Comparing bender to Leonard

Leonard Jack of all trades type ? The guy is a top 5 calibre player in the league.  I will carry you on my back type

We already know how dominating he can be on the defensive end. He can be just as dominating on the offensive end , but the Spurs don't play a one man show type of ball usually. They don't have to .   but I have seen plenty if times when they are struggling ,Leonard taking over

Bender is no Leonard. Not right now . maybe not ever

Cmon

Maybe re-reading what LooseCannon actually said would help here.

[hwangjini_1]

This is the whole thing with Dragan Bender.  He doesn't have any real major flaws, but he doesn't have any real major stand-out talents either.   The biggest selling point is the fact that he is only 18 years old, and so you hope he can surprise us all and take his game to a whole other level.  That's a big risk though.  He may well just develop into a pretty good all round player who isn't great at anything.

I think it's very unlikely Bender will be a complete bust.  He should (at the very least) be a quality starting center in the NBA for many years.  I just question his upside - does he really have the talent to develop into a big star?  I'm not so sure.

This is where bringing a player in and getting into his head matters.  If he has an elite motor, bbiq, and work ethic, he can be as valuable as Kawhi Leonard.  If he doesn't, he could be a bust.  If Bender is strong in those areas, i would take him over a big man with prototypical size and elite athleticism who is questionable between the ears.

Kawhi Leonard is really not comparable to Bender though.

Leonard always had a ridiculous wingspan for the SF spot, outstanding athleticism, excellent physical strength, and excellent mental toughness (with a 'never back down' attitude).

Guys who have those attributes tend to become outstanding defensive players, but Bender lacks in a few of those areas.  He greatly lacks physical strength, his wingspan is actually only good (rather than amazing) at the PF spot, and he doesn't seem to have a lot of mental toughness.  Even if his motor and work ethic are high, he still looks like somebody who could be easily pushed around - something you cannot say about Leonard ever.

Before somebody questions my comment about his length it's worth noting that Bender is 7'1" with a 7'2" wingspan.  Jared Sullinger is only 6'9" and has a 7'1" wingspan.  Bender certainly doesn't have a disadvantage in terms of wingspan, but he doesn't have the type of advantage a lot of people seem to think he has.  Dwight Howard for example is only 6'10" and yet he has a 7'5" wingspan.  Lemarcus Aldridge is 6'11" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Pau Gasol is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Tim Duncan is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Zach Randolph is 6'9" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  From memory Dirk also has a wingspan in the 7'5" range.

There are a lot of big men in this league who are a lot longer then Bender is, and there are certainly a lot of big men who are a lot stronger then Bender is, so unless he can prove he has superior skill (which I'm not seeing at this point) he might well struggle to score and defend against elite NBA bigs.

Simmons has the same problem as far as length goes (even moreso, in fact) but he can somewhat make up for that with elite physical strength, elite athleticism and a rediculous array of skills.

People compare Bender to Porzingis, but Poirzingis is 7'3"+ with a 7'6" wingspan and is already a very skilled shooter and a very capable scorer.  Bender lacks that major physical advantage, and looks less skilled (although he is two years younger then Porzingis too).

I'm not saying that Bender is directly comparable to Leonard.  What I am saying is that Leonard, while a guy with a huge wingspan, was seen as a guy with solid athleticism, but nothing elite when it came to strength, speed, or leaping ability.  At the time of the draft, he was seen as a jack of all trades kind of player who did a lot of things well, but not spectacularly well at anything.  He was seen as a strong rebounder and expected to be a good defender, but questions about which position he would play made it unclear how those skills would translate to the NBA.

I suspect that Kawhi Leonard's brain in Dragan Bender's body is a superstar in the NBA.  Kawhi Leonard has an elite brain, so it is unlikely Bender is that strong mentally.  Given that, I'd still take Dragan Bender's brain in Dragan Bender's body over Fab Melo's brain in Deandre Jordan's body, is what I'm saying.

Now I have seen it all.  Comparing bender to Leonard

Leonard Jack of all trades type ? The guy is a top 5 calibre player in the league.  I will carry you on my back type

We already know how dominating he can be on the defensive end. He can be just as dominating on the offensive end , but the Spurs don't play a one man show type of ball usually. They don't have to .   but I have seen plenty if times when they are struggling ,Leonard taking over

Bender is no Leonard. Not right now . maybe not ever

Cmon

Maybe re-reading what LooseCannon actually said would help here.

what? read BEFORE you post? sacrilege!! 

but back to the thread. i like what i am reading here and thank all the posters for providing a complex, well researched, and insightful set of arguments. this is one of the better threads i have seen on cb in a while.

oh, and i would pick bender at 3. 

[kozlodoev]

Here is a mock from June 2015 that has Bender going 5th.  There's plenty of proof he was liked before Porzingis' first game as a Knick.

http://mweb.cbssports.com/ncaab/eye-on-college-basketball/25225842/predicting-2016-nba-draft-lottery-next-year-should-be-good-for-sec

Bender has also been getting minutes for his team lately and is playing well.  I would like him with the third pick.

That's a pretty arcane reference.

On June 1, both DraftExpress and NBADraft.net had Bender at #10.

I'd love him to go third if we pick fourth.

[Tr1boy]

This is the whole thing with Dragan Bender.  He doesn't have any real major flaws, but he doesn't have any real major stand-out talents either.   The biggest selling point is the fact that he is only 18 years old, and so you hope he can surprise us all and take his game to a whole other level.  That's a big risk though.  He may well just develop into a pretty good all round player who isn't great at anything.

I think it's very unlikely Bender will be a complete bust.  He should (at the very least) be a quality starting center in the NBA for many years.  I just question his upside - does he really have the talent to develop into a big star?  I'm not so sure.

This is where bringing a player in and getting into his head matters.  If he has an elite motor, bbiq, and work ethic, he can be as valuable as Kawhi Leonard.  If he doesn't, he could be a bust.  If Bender is strong in those areas, i would take him over a big man with prototypical size and elite athleticism who is questionable between the ears.

Kawhi Leonard is really not comparable to Bender though.

Leonard always had a ridiculous wingspan for the SF spot, outstanding athleticism, excellent physical strength, and excellent mental toughness (with a 'never back down' attitude).

Guys who have those attributes tend to become outstanding defensive players, but Bender lacks in a few of those areas.  He greatly lacks physical strength, his wingspan is actually only good (rather than amazing) at the PF spot, and he doesn't seem to have a lot of mental toughness.  Even if his motor and work ethic are high, he still looks like somebody who could be easily pushed around - something you cannot say about Leonard ever.

Before somebody questions my comment about his length it's worth noting that Bender is 7'1" with a 7'2" wingspan.  Jared Sullinger is only 6'9" and has a 7'1" wingspan.  Bender certainly doesn't have a disadvantage in terms of wingspan, but he doesn't have the type of advantage a lot of people seem to think he has.  Dwight Howard for example is only 6'10" and yet he has a 7'5" wingspan.  Lemarcus Aldridge is 6'11" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Pau Gasol is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Tim Duncan is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Zach Randolph is 6'9" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  From memory Dirk also has a wingspan in the 7'5" range.

There are a lot of big men in this league who are a lot longer then Bender is, and there are certainly a lot of big men who are a lot stronger then Bender is, so unless he can prove he has superior skill (which I'm not seeing at this point) he might well struggle to score and defend against elite NBA bigs.

Simmons has the same problem as far as length goes (even moreso, in fact) but he can somewhat make up for that with elite physical strength, elite athleticism and a rediculous array of skills.

People compare Bender to Porzingis, but Poirzingis is 7'3"+ with a 7'6" wingspan and is already a very skilled shooter and a very capable scorer.  Bender lacks that major physical advantage, and looks less skilled (although he is two years younger then Porzingis too).

I'm not saying that Bender is directly comparable to Leonard.  What I am saying is that Leonard, while a guy with a huge wingspan, was seen as a guy with solid athleticism, but nothing elite when it came to strength, speed, or leaping ability.  At the time of the draft, he was seen as a jack of all trades kind of player who did a lot of things well, but not spectacularly well at anything.  He was seen as a strong rebounder and expected to be a good defender, but questions about which position he would play made it unclear how those skills would translate to the NBA.

I suspect that Kawhi Leonard's brain in Dragan Bender's body is a superstar in the NBA.  Kawhi Leonard has an elite brain, so it is unlikely Bender is that strong mentally.  Given that, I'd still take Dragan Bender's brain in Dragan Bender's body over Fab Melo's brain in Deandre Jordan's body, is what I'm saying.

Now I have seen it all.  Comparing bender to Leonard

Leonard Jack of all trades type ? The guy is a top 5 calibre player in the league.  I will carry you on my back type

We already know how dominating he can be on the defensive end. He can be just as dominating on the offensive end , but the Spurs don't play a one man show type of ball usually. They don't have to .   but I have seen plenty if times when they are struggling ,Leonard taking over

Bender is no Leonard. Not right now . maybe not ever

Cmon

Maybe re-reading what LooseCannon actually said would help here.

what? read BEFORE you post? sacrilege!! 

but back to the thread. i like what i am reading here and thank all the posters for providing a complex, well researched, and insightful set of arguments. this is one of the better threads i have seen on cb in a while.

oh, and i would pick bender at 3. 

Glad you are not our GM.

[kraidstar]

Everyone of these guys produced in games better than Bender.  Some of these guys scored 20 PPG in college.   Something Dragan has never done.   One could make an argument for years our amateur college guys were better given the Olympics too. 

Here are Porzingas stats in Europe.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/kristaps-porzingis-1.html

Here are Dragan's

http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/dragan-bender-1.html

Here are his supposed better Israeli stats

http://basketball.realgm.com/player/Dragan-Bender/Summary/41582

Pretty underwhelming folks.  There is more hype than substance, the above are stats not opinion.

TP, was about to post the same thing.

it should also be mentioned that the israeli league is ranked FAR below the spanish league in quality - the israeli league isn't even as good as NCAA ball.

for the record, i do see a lot of positives in bender's game - there are hints of porzingis and danilo galinari there - his athleticism and length are nice, but the pitiful production against weak competition is a big red flag. it would terrify me to take him so early in the draft.

[alldaboston]

Everyone of these guys produced in games better than Bender.  Some of these guys scored 20 PPG in college.   Something Dragan has never done.   One could make an argument for years our amateur college guys were better given the Olympics too. 

Here are Porzingas stats in Europe.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/kristaps-porzingis-1.html

Here are Dragan's

http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/dragan-bender-1.html

Here are his supposed better Israeli stats

http://basketball.realgm.com/player/Dragan-Bender/Summary/41582

Pretty underwhelming folks.  There is more hype than substance, the above are stats not opinion.

This man gets it. Bender likely won't amount to a whole lot  in the NBA

[TheSundanceKid]

This is the whole thing with Dragan Bender.  He doesn't have any real major flaws, but he doesn't have any real major stand-out talents either.   The biggest selling point is the fact that he is only 18 years old, and so you hope he can surprise us all and take his game to a whole other level.  That's a big risk though.  He may well just develop into a pretty good all round player who isn't great at anything.

I think it's very unlikely Bender will be a complete bust.  He should (at the very least) be a quality starting center in the NBA for many years.  I just question his upside - does he really have the talent to develop into a big star?  I'm not so sure.

This is where bringing a player in and getting into his head matters.  If he has an elite motor, bbiq, and work ethic, he can be as valuable as Kawhi Leonard.  If he doesn't, he could be a bust.  If Bender is strong in those areas, i would take him over a big man with prototypical size and elite athleticism who is questionable between the ears.

Kawhi Leonard is really not comparable to Bender though.

Leonard always had a ridiculous wingspan for the SF spot, outstanding athleticism, excellent physical strength, and excellent mental toughness (with a 'never back down' attitude).

Guys who have those attributes tend to become outstanding defensive players, but Bender lacks in a few of those areas.  He greatly lacks physical strength, his wingspan is actually only good (rather than amazing) at the PF spot, and he doesn't seem to have a lot of mental toughness.  Even if his motor and work ethic are high, he still looks like somebody who could be easily pushed around - something you cannot say about Leonard ever.

Before somebody questions my comment about his length it's worth noting that Bender is 7'1" with a 7'2" wingspan.  Jared Sullinger is only 6'9" and has a 7'1" wingspan.  Bender certainly doesn't have a disadvantage in terms of wingspan, but he doesn't have the type of advantage a lot of people seem to think he has.  Dwight Howard for example is only 6'10" and yet he has a 7'5" wingspan.  Lemarcus Aldridge is 6'11" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Pau Gasol is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Tim Duncan is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Zach Randolph is 6'9" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  From memory Dirk also has a wingspan in the 7'5" range.

There are a lot of big men in this league who are a lot longer then Bender is, and there are certainly a lot of big men who are a lot stronger then Bender is, so unless he can prove he has superior skill (which I'm not seeing at this point) he might well struggle to score and defend against elite NBA bigs.

Simmons has the same problem as far as length goes (even moreso, in fact) but he can somewhat make up for that with elite physical strength, elite athleticism and a rediculous array of skills.

People compare Bender to Porzingis, but Poirzingis is 7'3"+ with a 7'6" wingspan and is already a very skilled shooter and a very capable scorer.  Bender lacks that major physical advantage, and looks less skilled (although he is two years younger then Porzingis too).

I'm not saying that Bender is directly comparable to Leonard.  What I am saying is that Leonard, while a guy with a huge wingspan, was seen as a guy with solid athleticism, but nothing elite when it came to strength, speed, or leaping ability.  At the time of the draft, he was seen as a jack of all trades kind of player who did a lot of things well, but not spectacularly well at anything.  He was seen as a strong rebounder and expected to be a good defender, but questions about which position he would play made it unclear how those skills would translate to the NBA.

I suspect that Kawhi Leonard's brain in Dragan Bender's body is a superstar in the NBA.  Kawhi Leonard has an elite brain, so it is unlikely Bender is that strong mentally.  Given that, I'd still take Dragan Bender's brain in Dragan Bender's body over Fab Melo's brain in Deandre Jordan's body, is what I'm saying.

Now I have seen it all.  Comparing bender to Leonard

Leonard Jack of all trades type ? The guy is a top 5 calibre player in the league.  I will carry you on my back type

We already know how dominating he can be on the defensive end. He can be just as dominating on the offensive end , but the Spurs don't play a one man show type of ball usually. They don't have to .   but I have seen plenty if times when they are struggling ,Leonard taking over

Bender is no Leonard. Not right now . maybe not ever

Cmon

Maybe re-reading what LooseCannon actually said would help here.

what? read BEFORE you post? sacrilege!! 

but back to the thread. i like what i am reading here and thank all the posters for providing a complex, well researched, and insightful set of arguments. this is one of the better threads i have seen on cb in a while.

oh, and i would pick bender at 3. 

Glad you are not our GM.

Oh no, I'm sure he feels crushed.. Weren't you championing Mickey at 16 last year? Pretty certain that would look like a bad pick right now with the number of NBA minutes he has

[Tr1boy]

This is the whole thing with Dragan Bender.  He doesn't have any real major flaws, but he doesn't have any real major stand-out talents either.   The biggest selling point is the fact that he is only 18 years old, and so you hope he can surprise us all and take his game to a whole other level.  That's a big risk though.  He may well just develop into a pretty good all round player who isn't great at anything.

I think it's very unlikely Bender will be a complete bust.  He should (at the very least) be a quality starting center in the NBA for many years.  I just question his upside - does he really have the talent to develop into a big star?  I'm not so sure.

This is where bringing a player in and getting into his head matters.  If he has an elite motor, bbiq, and work ethic, he can be as valuable as Kawhi Leonard.  If he doesn't, he could be a bust.  If Bender is strong in those areas, i would take him over a big man with prototypical size and elite athleticism who is questionable between the ears.

Kawhi Leonard is really not comparable to Bender though.

Leonard always had a ridiculous wingspan for the SF spot, outstanding athleticism, excellent physical strength, and excellent mental toughness (with a 'never back down' attitude).

Guys who have those attributes tend to become outstanding defensive players, but Bender lacks in a few of those areas.  He greatly lacks physical strength, his wingspan is actually only good (rather than amazing) at the PF spot, and he doesn't seem to have a lot of mental toughness.  Even if his motor and work ethic are high, he still looks like somebody who could be easily pushed around - something you cannot say about Leonard ever.

Before somebody questions my comment about his length it's worth noting that Bender is 7'1" with a 7'2" wingspan.  Jared Sullinger is only 6'9" and has a 7'1" wingspan.  Bender certainly doesn't have a disadvantage in terms of wingspan, but he doesn't have the type of advantage a lot of people seem to think he has.  Dwight Howard for example is only 6'10" and yet he has a 7'5" wingspan.  Lemarcus Aldridge is 6'11" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Pau Gasol is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Tim Duncan is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Zach Randolph is 6'9" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  From memory Dirk also has a wingspan in the 7'5" range.

There are a lot of big men in this league who are a lot longer then Bender is, and there are certainly a lot of big men who are a lot stronger then Bender is, so unless he can prove he has superior skill (which I'm not seeing at this point) he might well struggle to score and defend against elite NBA bigs.

Simmons has the same problem as far as length goes (even moreso, in fact) but he can somewhat make up for that with elite physical strength, elite athleticism and a rediculous array of skills.

People compare Bender to Porzingis, but Poirzingis is 7'3"+ with a 7'6" wingspan and is already a very skilled shooter and a very capable scorer.  Bender lacks that major physical advantage, and looks less skilled (although he is two years younger then Porzingis too).

I'm not saying that Bender is directly comparable to Leonard.  What I am saying is that Leonard, while a guy with a huge wingspan, was seen as a guy with solid athleticism, but nothing elite when it came to strength, speed, or leaping ability.  At the time of the draft, he was seen as a jack of all trades kind of player who did a lot of things well, but not spectacularly well at anything.  He was seen as a strong rebounder and expected to be a good defender, but questions about which position he would play made it unclear how those skills would translate to the NBA.

I suspect that Kawhi Leonard's brain in Dragan Bender's body is a superstar in the NBA.  Kawhi Leonard has an elite brain, so it is unlikely Bender is that strong mentally.  Given that, I'd still take Dragan Bender's brain in Dragan Bender's body over Fab Melo's brain in Deandre Jordan's body, is what I'm saying.

Now I have seen it all.  Comparing bender to Leonard

Leonard Jack of all trades type ? The guy is a top 5 calibre player in the league.  I will carry you on my back type

We already know how dominating he can be on the defensive end. He can be just as dominating on the offensive end , but the Spurs don't play a one man show type of ball usually. They don't have to .   but I have seen plenty if times when they are struggling ,Leonard taking over

Bender is no Leonard. Not right now . maybe not ever

Cmon

Maybe re-reading what LooseCannon actually said would help here.

what? read BEFORE you post? sacrilege!! 

but back to the thread. i like what i am reading here and thank all the posters for providing a complex, well researched, and insightful set of arguments. this is one of the better threads i have seen on cb in a while.

oh, and i would pick bender at 3. 

Glad you are not our GM.

Oh no, I'm sure he feels crushed.. Weren't you championing Mickey at 16 last year? Pretty certain that would look like a bad pick right now with the number of NBA minutes he has

wow good comeback there.  =D

And Mickey is a solid prospect. Good enough in Danny's books to get a 4 year deal.

Tell me how many 2nd round picks get such a contract

[TheSundanceKid]

This is the whole thing with Dragan Bender.  He doesn't have any real major flaws, but he doesn't have any real major stand-out talents either.   The biggest selling point is the fact that he is only 18 years old, and so you hope he can surprise us all and take his game to a whole other level.  That's a big risk though.  He may well just develop into a pretty good all round player who isn't great at anything.

I think it's very unlikely Bender will be a complete bust.  He should (at the very least) be a quality starting center in the NBA for many years.  I just question his upside - does he really have the talent to develop into a big star?  I'm not so sure.

This is where bringing a player in and getting into his head matters.  If he has an elite motor, bbiq, and work ethic, he can be as valuable as Kawhi Leonard.  If he doesn't, he could be a bust.  If Bender is strong in those areas, i would take him over a big man with prototypical size and elite athleticism who is questionable between the ears.

Kawhi Leonard is really not comparable to Bender though.

Leonard always had a ridiculous wingspan for the SF spot, outstanding athleticism, excellent physical strength, and excellent mental toughness (with a 'never back down' attitude).

Guys who have those attributes tend to become outstanding defensive players, but Bender lacks in a few of those areas.  He greatly lacks physical strength, his wingspan is actually only good (rather than amazing) at the PF spot, and he doesn't seem to have a lot of mental toughness.  Even if his motor and work ethic are high, he still looks like somebody who could be easily pushed around - something you cannot say about Leonard ever.

Before somebody questions my comment about his length it's worth noting that Bender is 7'1" with a 7'2" wingspan.  Jared Sullinger is only 6'9" and has a 7'1" wingspan.  Bender certainly doesn't have a disadvantage in terms of wingspan, but he doesn't have the type of advantage a lot of people seem to think he has.  Dwight Howard for example is only 6'10" and yet he has a 7'5" wingspan.  Lemarcus Aldridge is 6'11" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Pau Gasol is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Tim Duncan is 7'0" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  Zach Randolph is 6'9" and has a 7'5" wingspan.  From memory Dirk also has a wingspan in the 7'5" range.

There are a lot of big men in this league who are a lot longer then Bender is, and there are certainly a lot of big men who are a lot stronger then Bender is, so unless he can prove he has superior skill (which I'm not seeing at this point) he might well struggle to score and defend against elite NBA bigs.

Simmons has the same problem as far as length goes (even moreso, in fact) but he can somewhat make up for that with elite physical strength, elite athleticism and a rediculous array of skills.

People compare Bender to Porzingis, but Poirzingis is 7'3"+ with a 7'6" wingspan and is already a very skilled shooter and a very capable scorer.  Bender lacks that major physical advantage, and looks less skilled (although he is two years younger then Porzingis too).

I'm not saying that Bender is directly comparable to Leonard.  What I am saying is that Leonard, while a guy with a huge wingspan, was seen as a guy with solid athleticism, but nothing elite when it came to strength, speed, or leaping ability.  At the time of the draft, he was seen as a jack of all trades kind of player who did a lot of things well, but not spectacularly well at anything.  He was seen as a strong rebounder and expected to be a good defender, but questions about which position he would play made it unclear how those skills would translate to the NBA.

I suspect that Kawhi Leonard's brain in Dragan Bender's body is a superstar in the NBA.  Kawhi Leonard has an elite brain, so it is unlikely Bender is that strong mentally.  Given that, I'd still take Dragan Bender's brain in Dragan Bender's body over Fab Melo's brain in Deandre Jordan's body, is what I'm saying.

Now I have seen it all.  Comparing bender to Leonard

Leonard Jack of all trades type ? The guy is a top 5 calibre player in the league.  I will carry you on my back type

We already know how dominating he can be on the defensive end. He can be just as dominating on the offensive end , but the Spurs don't play a one man show type of ball usually. They don't have to .   but I have seen plenty if times when they are struggling ,Leonard taking over

Bender is no Leonard. Not right now . maybe not ever

Cmon

Maybe re-reading what LooseCannon actually said would help here.

what? read BEFORE you post? sacrilege!! 

but back to the thread. i like what i am reading here and thank all the posters for providing a complex, well researched, and insightful set of arguments. this is one of the better threads i have seen on cb in a while.

oh, and i would pick bender at 3. 

Glad you are not our GM.

Oh no, I'm sure he feels crushed.. Weren't you championing Mickey at 16 last year? Pretty certain that would look like a bad pick right now with the number of NBA minutes he has

wow good comeback there.  =D

And Mickey is a solid prospect. Good enough in Danny's books to get a 4 year deal.

Tell me how many 2nd round picks get such a contract

No I agree he was a great pick at 31. But at 16 he would have been a massive reach. I'm just saying it's a bit rich for you to go throwing out insults to people's opinions. Do you thank God that Jonathon Givony is not our draft specialist? Because he's had Bender at 3 most of the season

[ederson]

Check out Gasol's stats. Even more underwhelming at the same age.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/pau-gasol-1.html

I am not advocating drafting or not drafting Bender, as I have not seen him play. With that being said, the stats don't always paint the whole picture with the European bigs... Especially those who are children growing into their body, while playing against grown men.

Edit: Actually look at both Gasol brothers.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/marc-gasol-1.html

You are comparing ACB to Israeli league.... Like comparing NBA to NBDL. And he wasn`t drafted 3rd because of his performances when he was 18. When drafted he was a very good player in the second toughest league in the world. Drafting today Bender in the lottey is a reach....