Author Topic: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate  (Read 35305 times)

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Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2016, 09:52:43 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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How can anybody make any definitive statements about his game at this point? Who can say he's "soft", or what level of defense he plays, or whether he has a "mid-range" game?  Whether he "avoids contact"?  This is based on what, three minutes worth of video? It's useless.

The kid is a total blank slate.  Is he Yi or Porzingis? No idea, because he has almost zero track record.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/dragan-bender-1.html

Good or bad (and the results have been bad), 86 minutes isn't enough time to form conclusions. Whoever takes Bender is gambling 100% on perceived skill set and upside, rather than what he's shown on the court.

It does make you ask, though: if Skal Labissiere had gone to Europe and been benched for the season, would that have helped his draft stock?
I go on scouting reports I trust, that's where my opinions come from. The positives I've read make me interested.

As to if Skal had gone to Europe, Skal also happens to be 2 years older than Bender, so I think Bender not playing a lot is less damaging than Skal not playing a lot.
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Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2016, 09:58:38 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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What's not to like about a 7'1 guy who can pass, dribble and shoot from the perimeter?
I'll share a little secret with you -- you actually have to be able to play a position in the NBA in order to stick around.

You know who else was 7 feet and could "pass, dribble, and shoot from the perimeter"? Yi Jianlian. Jan Vesely. Heck, even Kelly Olynyk.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #77 on: April 07, 2016, 10:12:30 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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What's not to like about a 7'1 guy who can pass, dribble and shoot from the perimeter?
I'll share a little secret with you -- you actually have to be able to play a position in the NBA in order to stick around.

You know who else was 7 feet and could "pass, dribble, and shoot from the perimeter"? Yi Jianlian. Jan Vesely. Heck, even Kelly Olynyk.

Exactly. 

@footey And KO lacks  a high motor??   

Omg. I don't know what else to say then

Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2016, 10:13:28 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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What's not to like about a 7'1 guy who can pass, dribble and shoot from the perimeter?
I'll share a little secret with you -- you actually have to be able to play a position in the NBA in order to stick around.

You know who else was 7 feet and could "pass, dribble, and shoot from the perimeter"? Yi Jianlian. Jan Vesely. Heck, even Kelly Olynyk.
You need to be able to defend a position. From all I've read Bender's biggest selling point is his ability to guard multiple positions.

Had Jan Vesely been able to shoot at all he would still be in the NBA, had Yi been able to play any defense at all he would still be in the NBA. The scouting reports indicate that Bender is a better defender than everyone you mentioned.

The idea that people players need to fit a specific position archetype to be successful has been disproven by how often players switch and how many positions play on the perimeter. The idea of position archetypes is antiquated.
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Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2016, 10:19:14 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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What's not to like about a 7'1 guy who can pass, dribble and shoot from the perimeter?
I'll share a little secret with you -- you actually have to be able to play a position in the NBA in order to stick around.

You know who else was 7 feet and could "pass, dribble, and shoot from the perimeter"? Yi Jianlian. Jan Vesely. Heck, even Kelly Olynyk.
You need to be able to defend a position. From all I've read Bender's biggest selling point is his ability to guard multiple positions.

Had Jan Vesely been able to shoot at all he would still be in the NBA, had Yi been able to play any defense at all he would still be in the NBA. The scouting reports indicate that Bender is a better defender than everyone you mentioned.

The idea that people players need to fit a specific position archetype to be successful has been disproven by how often players switch and how many positions play on the perimeter. The idea of position archetypes is antiquated.

What is the assessment of his shooting and defend based upon, though?  Is 86 minutes worth of game film enough to make any valid assessments?


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Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2016, 10:23:12 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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What's not to like about a 7'1 guy who can pass, dribble and shoot from the perimeter?
I'll share a little secret with you -- you actually have to be able to play a position in the NBA in order to stick around.

You know who else was 7 feet and could "pass, dribble, and shoot from the perimeter"? Yi Jianlian. Jan Vesely. Heck, even Kelly Olynyk.
You need to be able to defend a position. From all I've read Bender's biggest selling point is his ability to guard multiple positions.

Had Jan Vesely been able to shoot at all he would still be in the NBA, had Yi been able to play any defense at all he would still be in the NBA. The scouting reports indicate that Bender is a better defender than everyone you mentioned.

The idea that people players need to fit a specific position archetype to be successful has been disproven by how often players switch and how many positions play on the perimeter. The idea of position archetypes is antiquated.

What is the assessment of his shooting and defend based upon, though?  Is 86 minutes worth of game film enough to make any valid assessments?
I'm assuming the guys making these assessments have been watching him since he started playing professionally at the age of 16. Maybe he only played 86 minutes this year but he's been playing for his national team and at various showcase events for a long time. The better scouts even watch young players like that practice.
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Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2016, 10:38:23 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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Dragon Bender will be a stud in the NBA. He might go top 2 if he has a good workout.

Him and Smart will be the future if we draft him.

And this is based on?

About as much as the predictions that Simmons and Ingram will be stars. I would say that just because people in the US have less access to European basketball does not mean you can discount it. Bender has been around a long time already and he's only 18.

Don't we have a full season of NCAA basketball to base predictions about Simmons and Ingram on?  And nothing comparable for Bender?

How may games are in the NCAA calendar? Excluding the tournament I mean. With Bender we have a 31 game sample size at 12.3mpg. Those games are split between the BSL, Euroleague and Eurocup. The sample size with the NCAA is larger I would imagine but not overly so.

Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2016, 10:41:17 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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What's not to like about a 7'1 guy who can pass, dribble and shoot from the perimeter?
I'll share a little secret with you -- you actually have to be able to play a position in the NBA in order to stick around.

You know who else was 7 feet and could "pass, dribble, and shoot from the perimeter"? Yi Jianlian. Jan Vesely. Heck, even Kelly Olynyk.
You need to be able to defend a position. From all I've read Bender's biggest selling point is his ability to guard multiple positions.

Had Jan Vesely been able to shoot at all he would still be in the NBA, had Yi been able to play any defense at all he would still be in the NBA. The scouting reports indicate that Bender is a better defender than everyone you mentioned.

The idea that people players need to fit a specific position archetype to be successful has been disproven by how often players switch and how many positions play on the perimeter. The idea of position archetypes is antiquated.
This is literally the first time I hear this. The scouting report says he has a "great low stance" on the perimeter (this doesn't mean he's anything close to able to defend quicker NBA forwards), and questions his inside defensive presence, rebounding, and athleticism.

The myth of Dragan Bender is by large perpetuated by the fact that no-one has really seen him play, let alone against any sort of meaningful competition. Which is in itself a red flag.

I don't understand why people keep bringing Porzingis. Porzingis was a rotation player in the ACB for two years before he was drafted, and the ACB is just a tiny bit better than the Israeli league  ;D
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Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2016, 10:48:37 AM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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What's not to like about a 7'1 guy who can pass, dribble and shoot from the perimeter?
I'll share a little secret with you -- you actually have to be able to play a position in the NBA in order to stick around.

You know who else was 7 feet and could "pass, dribble, and shoot from the perimeter"? Yi Jianlian. Jan Vesely. Heck, even Kelly Olynyk.

Exactly. 

@footey And KO lacks  a high motor??   

Omg. I don't know what else to say then

Triboy how many hustle rebounds or chase down blocks have you seen KO get? I'm intrigued as to why you think he has a high motor? I really like KO as a player but it isn't one of the attributes that make him good.

Using a few busts to justify not picking someone is easy. Just as easy as saying a player will fail because he's European. There's a lot of latent racism going around...

Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #84 on: April 07, 2016, 10:55:16 AM »

Offline ederson

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I don`t the "the scouts watched and said that...." argument
The same scouts have watched a lot of players and have made mistakes
Remember Milicic ? He at least lead his team to a European final dominating in every game
Gannis was a miss because nobody could assess his talent because of the low level of his competition

i completely agree with kozlodoev
I won`t get tired posting this.... Bender hasn`t made his presence felt in the lowly Isrealian league and for the worst Maccabi team of the last 20 years.


Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #85 on: April 07, 2016, 10:56:44 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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What's not to like about a 7'1 guy who can pass, dribble and shoot from the perimeter?
I'll share a little secret with you -- you actually have to be able to play a position in the NBA in order to stick around.

You know who else was 7 feet and could "pass, dribble, and shoot from the perimeter"? Yi Jianlian. Jan Vesely. Heck, even Kelly Olynyk.
You need to be able to defend a position. From all I've read Bender's biggest selling point is his ability to guard multiple positions.

Had Jan Vesely been able to shoot at all he would still be in the NBA, had Yi been able to play any defense at all he would still be in the NBA. The scouting reports indicate that Bender is a better defender than everyone you mentioned.

The idea that people players need to fit a specific position archetype to be successful has been disproven by how often players switch and how many positions play on the perimeter. The idea of position archetypes is antiquated.

What is the assessment of his shooting and defend based upon, though?  Is 86 minutes worth of game film enough to make any valid assessments?
I'm assuming the guys making these assessments have been watching him since he started playing professionally at the age of 16. Maybe he only played 86 minutes this year but he's been playing for his national team and at various showcase events for a long time. The better scouts even watch young players like that practice.

I'm not sure that pro scouts have had that much more access, but let's assume they do. Where is the idea that he's a good shooter coming from? He's been a lousy outside shooter in Euro juniors, U18, and his current Euro team. (He skipped a He's been a lousy FT shooter at all levels. Where is the shooting label coming from?

And, of course, scouts miss wildly on these guys all of the time. I would just prefer a body of work to evaluate.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 11:11:55 AM by Roy H. »


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Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #86 on: April 07, 2016, 11:03:13 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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What's not to like about a 7'1 guy who can pass, dribble and shoot from the perimeter?
I'll share a little secret with you -- you actually have to be able to play a position in the NBA in order to stick around.

You know who else was 7 feet and could "pass, dribble, and shoot from the perimeter"? Yi Jianlian. Jan Vesely. Heck, even Kelly Olynyk.
You need to be able to defend a position. From all I've read Bender's biggest selling point is his ability to guard multiple positions.

Had Jan Vesely been able to shoot at all he would still be in the NBA, had Yi been able to play any defense at all he would still be in the NBA. The scouting reports indicate that Bender is a better defender than everyone you mentioned.

The idea that people players need to fit a specific position archetype to be successful has been disproven by how often players switch and how many positions play on the perimeter. The idea of position archetypes is antiquated.
This is literally the first time I hear this. The scouting report says he has a "great low stance" on the perimeter (this doesn't mean he's anything close to able to defend quicker NBA forwards), and questions his inside defensive presence, rebounding, and athleticism.

The myth of Dragan Bender is by large perpetuated by the fact that no-one has really seen him play, let alone against any sort of meaningful competition. Which is in itself a red flag.

I don't understand why people keep bringing Porzingis. Porzingis was a rotation player in the ACB for two years before he was drafted, and the ACB is just a tiny bit better than the Israeli league  ;D

So this is what I posted on page 3 of this thread but there is some ambiguity to it so I understand the difference of opinion.

Quote
Bender stands at 7-1 but is very agile for someone his height. He can sprint up the court to finish with power in transition and has flashed second jump-ability to fight for tip-ins on the offensive glass, when a tougher big man doesn’t erase him out of the play completely with a physical box out.

But Bender’s mobility is perhaps even more promising with regards to his potential defending in space. Obviously, he is not suited to pick up speedy point guards on switches and have to navigate ball-screens, but Bender has proven able to bend his knees to get in a stance, move laterally and keep pace with less athletic wings like Alessandro Gentile and Mindaugas Kuzminskas in isolation. His 7-2 wingspan makes it extremely tough for an opponent to shoot over him off the bounce without creating a good amount of separation first.

As a help defender, Bender can cut off dribble penetration containing the pick-and-roll as a big and has long strides to crash inside to bump a big rolling to the basket and then closeout to a weak-side spot-up shooter. More critically, he has often been able to run the shooter off the 3-point line and maintain his balance to defend the dribble drive.

The last paragraph indicates he can do anything you would need of an off ball defender in a team defense. This report also indicates that his combination of length and mobility allows him to guard some perimeter players as well as some post players now, which should only improve as his body develops.

Reading this report indicates that you have a player who will be able to play any type of pick and roll coverage, help his team by closing out on help defense and eventually bother shots in the paint due to his length. That he exhibits all these traits as an 18 year old is pretty impressive and shows flashes of what is to come.

Here is a quote from Jonathan Givony on comparing Porzingis and Bender
Quote
How do you find a 7’1″ kid that’s 17 years old, that is skilled with such a feel for the game like Dragan’s? It doesn’t exist. Compare where Dragan is now to where [New York Knicks No. 4 pick] Kristaps Porzingis was at the same age, and there’s no comparison. Bender is way ahead in terms of how polished he is, creativity, versatility and his body. I was watching some of his games from preseason in France and Israel, and he is huge.

His body made a huge jump this summer. Every time I watch him, he is better, stronger; his jumper is better, his ball-handling, he runs coast-to-coast, dishes off. … NBA teams will fall in love with him.

When comparing the two you have to remember that Bender is coming out at the age of 18, where Porzingis came out at 19
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Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #87 on: April 07, 2016, 11:15:43 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I just do not believe that Bender is light years ahead of Porzingis. If he was, 1) he'd be playing in actual games; 2) he'd be producing in actual games; and 3) he'd be in strong consideration for the #1 overall pick.


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Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #88 on: April 07, 2016, 11:20:42 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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When comparing the two you have to remember that Bender is coming out at the age of 18, where Porzingis came out at 19
Yeah, and Porzingis played more in a stronger league in his age 18 season. Your point?

The extra year here was only relevant to the extent to which it provided 35 more games' worth of scouting material.
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Re: Dragan Bender no longer a Draft and Stash candidate
« Reply #89 on: April 07, 2016, 11:31:22 AM »

Offline chilidawg

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I don`t the "the scouts watched and said that...." argument
The same scouts have watched a lot of players and have made mistakes
Remember Milicic ? He at least lead his team to a European final dominating in every game
Gannis was a miss because nobody could assess his talent because of the low level of his competition

i completely agree with kozlodoev
I won`t get tired posting this.... Bender hasn`t made his presence felt in the lowly Isrealian league and for the worst Maccabi team of the last 20 years.

Well when there's not much else to go on, using scouts reports makes pretty good sense.  How much film of him have you watched, or have you seen him repeatedly in person?  I agree that skepticism is warranted based on his lack of playing resume, but I'd be disappointed if DA wrote him off because of that.  Bottom line is that none of us is really going to be capable of an informed opinion about him.  Not that that will slow down the discussion.  ;)