I like KO, but Giannis is beginning to look like a STUD.

[Tr1boy]

Here's my re-draft, for now:


1.  Giannis
2.  Gobert
3.  McCollum
4.  Schroder
5.  Nerlens
6.  Olynyk
7.  Oladipo
8.  Dieng
9.  Len
10.  Adams
11.  KCP
12.  Plumlee
13.  Otto
14.  Hardaway

That's off the top of my head so I might be missing someone.

disagree
 
this draft has no clear #1's with a bunch of #10 picks for the first 5 picks.   

Giannis is that good??  how are the bucks doing?    He is not even the best player on the team

I like Giannis but he is not THAT good c'mon. Can't shoot.  Is not as athletic as ppl think. Definitely not that explosive.   Smooth athlete, good handles and passing skills for size.   Uses length as adv to score.   Does not posses a solid shooting touch

Defensively can get burned due to so so lateral quickness (tries to utilize long strides) , not strong enough to guard pfs.   Not quick enough to guard sgs.   Can do a decent job against sfs and has some nice length to grab rebounds and deflect the ball  (team play)

[Celtics18]

Much more interesting to me is why Rudy Gobert was missed by practically everybody.

That's pretty easy.  Gobert doesn't have elite athleticism, which is overvalued when drafting big men high in the lottery, and had limited offensive capabilities.  Teams generally don't spend high picks on projects who aren't seen as special when it comes to strength, speed, and leaping ability.

I'm sure he had a similar scouting report to Fab Melo.

Rudy Gobert was significantly younger and had international pro ball experience, right?

Seems like the major draft failing there is about assessing the player from a mental / psychological standpoint.

I can see how that'd be harder with a foreigner.  On the other hand, I wouldn't draft the guy if I couldn't get a chance to sit down with him alongside a top notch interpreter, and also talk to his coaches and trainers about his work habits and behavior in the locker room.

Perhaps he didn't give that opportunity to many teams?  I dunno.

I agree that it seems explosive athleticism has tended to be overvalued with center prospects.  More important these days, I think, is lateral movement, standing reach, and the ability to grasp defensive concepts.

From what I recall, Gobert's physical measurements, at least, were phenomenal.

In the videos I saw, he looked gawky, awkward and skinny.  I remember being intrigued, but also scared that he wouldn't be able to handle the physicality of NBA big boys.

I don't know why you seem to have picked Gobert as such a glaring example of scouting gone wrong.  Young basketball players constantly either outplay their draft position or fail to live up to it.

People continually want to convince themselves that there's some kind of perfect science behind the drafting process.  There isn't.  It's always going to be chancey.

[MJohnnyboy]

Wrong thread

[Celtics18]

Here's my re-draft, for now:


1.  Giannis
2.  Gobert
3.  McCollum
4.  Schroder
5.  Nerlens
6.  Olynyk
7.  Oladipo
8.  Dieng
9.  Len
10.  Adams
11.  KCP
12.  Plumlee
13.  Otto
14.  Hardaway

That's off the top of my head so I might be missing someone.

disagree
 
this draft has no clear #1's with a bunch of #10 picks for the first 5 picks.   

Giannis is that good??  how are the bucks doing?    He is not even the best player on the team

I like Giannis but he is not THAT good c'mon. Can't shoot.  Is not as athletic as ppl think. Definitely not that explosive.   Smooth athlete, good handles and passing skills for size.   Uses length as adv to score.   Does not posses a solid shooting touch

Defensively can get burned due to so so lateral quickness (tries to utilize long strides) , not strong enough to guard pfs.   Not quick enough to guard sgs.   Can do a decent job against sfs and has some nice length to grab rebounds and deflect the ball  (team play)

There's a lot of subjective opinion above that I disagree with.  I won't counter with my own subjective observations on his play, but will simply respond that there aren't many twenty-one year olds performing at as high an NBA level as Giannis Antetokounmpo.  As a matter of fact, I challenge you to name at least three players currently twenty-one or younger performing better than Giannis.

[MJohnnyboy]

People give the 2013 draft so much crap and it's really quite baffling if you ask me. A lot of good players came out of that class. The only one of note who has been really bad was Anthony Bennett, and even then we all thought that was a dumb pick by Cleveland. After that, a lot of teams got serviceable players.

[Celtics18]

People give the 2013 draft so much crap and it's really quite baffling if you ask me. A lot of good players came out of that class. The only one of note who has been really bad was Anthony Bennett, and even then we all thought that was a dumb pick by Cleveland. After that, a lot of teams got serviceable players.

Agreed.  It's a lot better than it's given credit for.

[MJohnnyboy]

People give the 2013 draft so much crap and it's really quite baffling if you ask me. A lot of good players came out of that class. The only one of note who has been really bad was Anthony Bennett, and even then we all thought that was a dumb pick by Cleveland. After that, a lot of teams got serviceable players.

Agreed.  It's a lot better than it's given credit for.

What I also think is really funny is the fact that each year someone else from the draft has stood out from the crowd. In 2014, it was Michael Carter-Williams. In 2015, it was Rudy Gobert. This year it's been CJ McCollum, and amongst all of this, Giannis has always been on everyone's radar as the guy who has the highest potential, and it looks like in the past few weeks that he's starting to reach it.

I wonder how people will look at the draft 5 years from now.

[greece66]

Here's my re-draft, for now:


1.  Giannis
2.  Gobert
3.  McCollum
4.  Schroder
5.  Nerlens
6.  Olynyk
7.  Oladipo
8.  Dieng
9.  Len
10.  Adams
11.  KCP
12.  Plumlee
13.  Otto
14.  Hardaway

That's off the top of my head so I might be missing someone.

disagree
 
this draft has no clear #1's with a bunch of #10 picks for the first 5 picks.   

Giannis is that good??  how are the bucks doing?    He is not even the best player on the team

I like Giannis but he is not THAT good c'mon. Can't shoot.  Is not as athletic as ppl think. Definitely not that explosive.   Smooth athlete, good handles and passing skills for size.   Uses length as adv to score.   Does not posses a solid shooting touch

Defensively can get burned due to so so lateral quickness (tries to utilize long strides) , not strong enough to guard pfs.   Not quick enough to guard sgs.   Can do a decent job against sfs and has some nice length to grab rebounds and deflect the ball  (team play)

There's a lot of subjective opinion above that I disagree with.  I won't counter with my own subjective observations on his play, but will simply respond that there aren't many twenty-one year olds performing at as high an NBA level as Giannis Antetokounmpo.  As a matter of fact, I challenge you to name at least three players currently twenty-one or younger performing better than Giannis.

^this

+ how many 6'11 players can run so fast with the ball?

or  how many shotblockers can also pass that well?

or how many good rimprotectors can easily steal the ball?

it's not just that he is a great body but also that he has a very unique combination of attributes that very rarely appear together.

ideally this would allow him to be an all-star that will bring new elements to the game; at the worst scenario (esp. if his jumpshot, and more generally his offensive game, does not improve) he will become a serviceable forward, with offensive flaws elite defensive skills, who will also excel at fastbreaks.

[PhoSita]

I don't know why you seem to have picked Gobert as such a glaring example of scouting gone wrong.  Young basketball players constantly either outplay their draft position or fail to live up to it.

You misunderstand me.

What I'm pointing out is that Gobert was an even bigger steal than Giannis, all things considered, yet these posts are always about KO versus Giannis instead of KO versus Gobert, even though Gobert profiles as a more obvious fit for what this team's current strengths and weaknesses are.

Heck, nobody even mentions Gorgui Dieng, who is quite old for a third year player, but would look pretty great on this Celts team, if you ask me.

I don't think Gobert was a great breakdown in scouting, just as I don't think Giannis was a great breakdown in scouting.  Still, from what I've seen there are lots and lots of misses on players like Giannis (lanky beanpoles with no obvious position or shooting stroke), whereas there's a comparatively lower instance of total busting when it comes to foreign big men, or even just low-skills centers with great measurables.

So it just seems to me that there's a better place to focus, instead of coming back again and again to Giannis.  But I guess Giannis is a more tantalizing talent than Gobert even as Gobert is demonstrably more valuable right now, and may always be.

[greece66]

People give the 2013 draft so much crap and it's really quite baffling if you ask me. A lot of good players came out of that class. The only one of note who has been really bad was Anthony Bennett, and even then we all thought that was a dumb pick by Cleveland. After that, a lot of teams got serviceable players.

Agreed.  It's a lot better than it's given credit for.

What I also think is really funny is the fact that each year someone else from the draft has stood out from the crowd. In 2014, it was Michael Carter-Williams. In 2015, it was Rudy Gobert. This year it's been CJ McCollum, and amongst all of this, Giannis has always been on everyone's radar as the guy who has the highest potential, and it looks like in the past few weeks that he's starting to reach it.

I wonder how people will look at the draft 5 years from now.

IMO as a draft with

-several disappointments at the top 5 (Bennett, Cody Zeller, Otto Porter): arguably none of them would have been in the top 10 in the 2015 draft.

-(hopefully)some All Stars: probably Gobert and Giannis and  maybe McCollum and Nerlens too.

-and lots of solid but not exceptional players: Len, Oladipo, Schroder, Adams etc.

All in all, a decent draft, but fans tend to focus on the potential stars.

[Snakehead]

Gobert just falls into the crap shoot of that kind of big man to me.  Just like Fab Melo did.  Just like Whiteside did, and he even looked like nothing for seasons before he became what he is now.  Perhaps the scouting could have been better but it's just really hard to predict.  Tall players have a hard time getting it together.  Some do, some don't.  Coordination, physicality, mobility, athleticism are all tough to deal with for many of those players and it's tough predict how they will develop.  And of course some can just entirely physically fall apart (Oden, Embiid from the jump, a guy like Bynum later on).

Not the neat answer some want but I think it's clearly the reality.  I'm sure some teams, scouts, GMs are better at it than others but not sure I have seen a pattern of that (if it's there, so be it).

[crimson_stallion]

Gobert just falls into the crap shoot of that kind of big man to me.  Just like Fab Melo did.  Just like Whiteside did, and he even looked like nothing for seasons before he became what he is now.  Perhaps the scouting could have been better but it's just really hard to predict.  Tall players have a hard time getting it together.  Some do, some don't.  Coordination, physicality, mobility, athleticism are all tough to deal with for many of those players and it's tough predict how they will develop.  And of course some can just entirely physically fall apart (Oden, Embiid from the jump, a guy like Bynum later on).

Not the neat answer some want but I think it's clearly the reality.  I'm sure some are better at it than others but not sure I have seen a pattern of that (if it's there, so be it).

Well said - couldn't have put it better.

[Denis998]

why does everyone forget he grew like 6 inches after being drafted? He was drafted as a guard and started his career as a guard.

[PhoSita]

Gobert just falls into the crap shoot of that kind of big man to me.  Just like Fab Melo did.  Just like Whiteside did, and he even looked like nothing for seasons before he became what he is now.  Perhaps the scouting could have been better but it's just really hard to predict.  Tall players have a hard time getting it together.  Some do, some don't.  Coordination, physicality, mobility, athleticism are all tough to deal with for many of those players and it's tough predict how they will develop.  And of course some can just entirely physically fall apart (Oden, Embiid from the jump, a guy like Bynum later on).

Not the neat answer some want but I think it's clearly the reality.  I'm sure some are better at it than others but not sure I have seen a pattern of that (if it's there, so be it).

I think you'd have to look at "pure centers taken outside of the lottery" or something like that as the sample.

[Celtics18]

why does everyone forget he grew like 6 inches after being drafted? He was drafted as a guard and started his career as a guard.

Because it's not true.   He might have grown two or three inches, but he wasn't 6'5" when he was drafted.  No way.