I like KO, but Giannis is beginning to look like a STUD.

[positivitize]

I like KO an DA did a good job getting value for his 13th pick.

That said... I want Gobert. DANNY GET ME A CENTER PLZ

[trickybilly]

I like KO an DA did a good job getting value for his 13th pick.

That said... I want Gobert. DANNY GET ME A CENTER PLZ

aj hammons from purdue

[danglertx]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but WHACK!, what better teammates than he has now would GA need to break even +/- for a season?  The Bucks have good players up and down their roster.  People on this forum would probably trade our entire team for Monroe, Parker, MCW and Middleton.

Some say if GA was here he'd be so much better.  Really?  In what way?  Certainly not his stats, he'd be playing 15 minutes less a game, or at least that is what KO trails him.  We have an offense of setting picks and running off picks while spacing the floor.  Does he space the floor?  I guess he can switch picks and I can't say I've watched enough of his defense to say whether it is him, the system, or his teammates who can't play defense but the Bucks aren't great defensively.

If we aren't hitting shots outside, the paint totally clogs up like it did last night in the first half against the Grizz.  Once the threes started falling everything opened up and we routed them.  GA clogs the paint with his inability to shoot, especially as a 3.

Someone said in this thread Giannis is a better player than KO like it was a known and agreed upon fact.  I guess I would ask in what way?  You mean one on one he could beat him?  Sure I'd say that.  You mean defensively one on one against multiple positions?  Absolutely.  But if you consider spacing the floor at the 4 or 5 position, making teammates better by setting good picks, passing, understanding the offense and moving the ball, and playing team defense, then I'm not so sure it is clear cut.

I can't remember all the times last night Zeller either didn't go for a rebound or loose ball or didn't move over to help on a driving man.  Or how many times he  watched a guy shoot a corner three instead of running at him like KO does.  Those things matter and they don't show up in any stats, except +/-.   Does GA do those things?  I don't know, I don't claim to watch the Bucks... ever.  But if he did do those things, shouldn't hist +/- reflect that? 

At one point this year I remember there being a stat that our most effective three lineups all had one thing in common, KO.  That can't be coincidence can it?  There is a hidden value in what he does that isn't obvious to casual fans or people looking at stats.

I love stats and I'm always looking for gems of players hidden in stats but every stat has its limitations.  In the end, all that really matters in the game of basketball is, did your team score more points than they allowed.  Maybe a player who defers to his teammates actually has more value than someone who scores less efficiently, not of player you are comparing him to, but to the players on the floor with the player you are comparing him to. 

If GA was a STUD.  Shouldn't he be able to lift up the likes of Monroe, Parker, MCW,  Middleton and Henson?  He may be the best of those players, maybe not, but don't tell me the guy is playing with a bunch of stiffs and that is why his and his team's +/- is so bad.  Carmelo, I get.   Davis, maybe.  But GA is surrounded by good NBA players.

[jambr380]

I don't get this type of argument when players are judged by their numbers specially scoring numbers.
20pts per game in a losing team means nothing.
show me the stats where this guy makes his team win.

For all we know, maybe you put RJ 35mn per game and run play mostly for him, I'm sure he'll score 20 points, but I'm almost sure we'll lose most of our games.

KO moves the needle because he's a special player (all his stats backup this argument). I like Giannis but I'm glad we have KO in Boston, this type of kid will be essential in a championship contender Celtics team soon.

Agreed. Plus, Olynyk is a player that can fit seamlessly into any system, especially with the emphasis on 4's that can stretch the floor. On the other hand, GA is much more difficult to plug in. He can't play the 4, despite his length, because he's not physical enough and then his shooting is an issue at the 3. So the best case scenario for him is to be a ball handling 3 where he's facilitator and is flanked by good shooters. However, the problem is that he's not good enough to be the center point of a team.

I think he is good enough to be the centerpiece of a good team.  And he's still improving.

I love Olynyk, but I have to be honest, he doesn't seem to have the superstar potential of the Greek Freak.

I don't think anybody is saying KO has as much potential as Giannis, just that KO is likely to be a better long term fit on most teams. When you have a guy that isn't the best shooter who needs the ball in his hands a lot, you can really limit yourself. If Giannis doesn't prove to be a go-to focus of his team's offense, then he might be better suited as a 6th man. I understand that KO is already 'just' a bench player, but he provides a lot more versatility to a team as he can play with all of the ball-dominant players in the world and still be effective.

[ssspence]

beginning to?

[Eddie20]

I don't get this type of argument when players are judged by their numbers specially scoring numbers.
20pts per game in a losing team means nothing.
show me the stats where this guy makes his team win.

For all we know, maybe you put RJ 35mn per game and run play mostly for him, I'm sure he'll score 20 points, but I'm almost sure we'll lose most of our games.

KO moves the needle because he's a special player (all his stats backup this argument). I like Giannis but I'm glad we have KO in Boston, this type of kid will be essential in a championship contender Celtics team soon.

Agreed. Plus, Olynyk is a player that can fit seamlessly into any system, especially with the emphasis on 4's that can stretch the floor. On the other hand, GA is much more difficult to plug in. He can't play the 4, despite his length, because he's not physical enough and then his shooting is an issue at the 3. So the best case scenario for him is to be a ball handling 3 where he's facilitator and is flanked by good shooters. However, the problem is that he's not good enough to be the center point of a team.

I think he is good enough to be the centerpiece of a good team.  And he's still improving.

I love Olynyk, but I have to be honest, he doesn't seem to have the superstar potential of the Greek Freak.

I don't think anybody is saying KO has as much potential as Giannis, just that KO is likely to be a better long term fit on most teams. When you have a guy that isn't the best shooter who needs the ball in his hands a lot, you can really limit yourself. If Giannis doesn't prove to be a go-to focus of his team's offense, then he might be better suited as a 6th man. I understand that KO is already 'just' a bench player, but he provides a lot more versatility to a team as he can play with all of the ball-dominant players in the world and still be effective.

Exactly. I'm not sure there is a team that Olynyk wouldn't be a good fit on. GA, while clearly more physically talented, has weaknesses that won't fit on a lot of teams, save for the bad ones where he'll handle the ball the majority of the time.

[hwangjini_1]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but WHACK!, ...

dt, this was really a well done post. thoughtful, insightful, and civil. thanks for posting it, and a tp to you sir.

[danglertx]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but WHACK!, ...

dt, this was really a well done post. thoughtful, insightful, and civil. thanks for posting it, and a tp to you sir.

Thank you.  And one to you sir.

[Tr1boy]

This again??

Giannis can't shoot. 

[Celtics18]

I don't get this type of argument when players are judged by their numbers specially scoring numbers.
20pts per game in a losing team means nothing.
show me the stats where this guy makes his team win.

For all we know, maybe you put RJ 35mn per game and run play mostly for him, I'm sure he'll score 20 points, but I'm almost sure we'll lose most of our games.

KO moves the needle because he's a special player (all his stats backup this argument). I like Giannis but I'm glad we have KO in Boston, this type of kid will be essential in a championship contender Celtics team soon.

Agreed. Plus, Olynyk is a player that can fit seamlessly into any system, especially with the emphasis on 4's that can stretch the floor. On the other hand, GA is much more difficult to plug in. He can't play the 4, despite his length, because he's not physical enough and then his shooting is an issue at the 3. So the best case scenario for him is to be a ball handling 3 where he's facilitator and is flanked by good shooters. However, the problem is that he's not good enough to be the center point of a team.

I think he is good enough to be the centerpiece of a good team.  And he's still improving.

I love Olynyk, but I have to be honest, he doesn't seem to have the superstar potential of the Greek Freak.

I don't think anybody is saying KO has as much potential as Giannis, just that KO is likely to be a better long term fit on most teams. When you have a guy that isn't the best shooter who needs the ball in his hands a lot, you can really limit yourself. If Giannis doesn't prove to be a go-to focus of his team's offense, then he might be better suited as a 6th man. I understand that KO is already 'just' a bench player, but he provides a lot more versatility to a team as he can play with all of the ball-dominant players in the world and still be effective.

I can agree with this.  Kelly certainly has skills that will allow him to fit anywhere.  To get the most out of Giannis, you kind of have to make him an offensive focal point.

[KeepRondo]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but WHACK!, what better teammates than he has now would GA need to break even +/- for a season?  The Bucks have good players up and down their roster.  People on this forum would probably trade our entire team for Monroe, Parker, MCW and Middleton.

Some say if GA was here he'd be so much better.  Really?  In what way?  Certainly not his stats, he'd be playing 15 minutes less a game, or at least that is what KO trails him.  We have an offense of setting picks and running off picks while spacing the floor.  Does he space the floor?  I guess he can switch picks and I can't say I've watched enough of his defense to say whether it is him, the system, or his teammates who can't play defense but the Bucks aren't great defensively.

If we aren't hitting shots outside, the paint totally clogs up like it did last night in the first half against the Grizz.  Once the threes started falling everything opened up and we routed them.  GA clogs the paint with his inability to shoot, especially as a 3.

Someone said in this thread Giannis is a better player than KO like it was a known and agreed upon fact.  I guess I would ask in what way?  You mean one on one he could beat him?  Sure I'd say that.  You mean defensively one on one against multiple positions?  Absolutely.  But if you consider spacing the floor at the 4 or 5 position, making teammates better by setting good picks, passing, understanding the offense and moving the ball, and playing team defense, then I'm not so sure it is clear cut.

I can't remember all the times last night Zeller either didn't go for a rebound or loose ball or didn't move over to help on a driving man.  Or how many times he  watched a guy shoot a corner three instead of running at him like KO does.  Those things matter and they don't show up in any stats, except +/-.   Does GA do those things?  I don't know, I don't claim to watch the Bucks... ever.  But if he did do those things, shouldn't hist +/- reflect that? 

At one point this year I remember there being a stat that our most effective three lineups all had one thing in common, KO.  That can't be coincidence can it?  There is a hidden value in what he does that isn't obvious to casual fans or people looking at stats.

I love stats and I'm always looking for gems of players hidden in stats but every stat has its limitations.  In the end, all that really matters in the game of basketball is, did your team score more points than they allowed.  Maybe a player who defers to his teammates actually has more value than someone who scores less efficiently, not of player you are comparing him to, but to the players on the floor with the player you are comparing him to. 

If GA was a STUD.  Shouldn't he be able to lift up the likes of Monroe, Parker, MCW,  Middleton and Henson?  He may be the best of those players, maybe not, but don't tell me the guy is playing with a bunch of stiffs and that is why his and his team's +/- is so bad.  Carmelo, I get.   Davis, maybe.  But GA is surrounded by good NBA players.

The Bucks have no point guard or bench. That has a lot more to do with their problems than GA.

Also, you make a ton of leaps such as GA getting 15 minutes less if he played in our offense. The guy can play multiple positions. Brad would find him minutes easily. Also, Sully doesn't hit a high percentage of the threes but is able to find a mid range game in our offense. So your theory that he has to be able to shoot a three to fit into Brad's offense is wrong.

You can write another 10 pages and use all the stats you want but you would still be wrong about GA.

No knock on KO cause he has the ability of being a top 50 player some day. He's just not on GA's level now or have the same potential.

[Celtics18]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but WHACK!, what better teammates than he has now would GA need to break even +/- for a season?  The Bucks have good players up and down their roster.  People on this forum would probably trade our entire team for Monroe, Parker, MCW and Middleton.

Some say if GA was here he'd be so much better.  Really?  In what way?  Certainly not his stats, he'd be playing 15 minutes less a game, or at least that is what KO trails him.  We have an offense of setting picks and running off picks while spacing the floor.  Does he space the floor?  I guess he can switch picks and I can't say I've watched enough of his defense to say whether it is him, the system, or his teammates who can't play defense but the Bucks aren't great defensively.

If we aren't hitting shots outside, the paint totally clogs up like it did last night in the first half against the Grizz.  Once the threes started falling everything opened up and we routed them.  GA clogs the paint with his inability to shoot, especially as a 3.

Someone said in this thread Giannis is a better player than KO like it was a known and agreed upon fact.  I guess I would ask in what way?  You mean one on one he could beat him?  Sure I'd say that.  You mean defensively one on one against multiple positions?  Absolutely.  But if you consider spacing the floor at the 4 or 5 position, making teammates better by setting good picks, passing, understanding the offense and moving the ball, and playing team defense, then I'm not so sure it is clear cut.

I can't remember all the times last night Zeller either didn't go for a rebound or loose ball or didn't move over to help on a driving man.  Or how many times he  watched a guy shoot a corner three instead of running at him like KO does.  Those things matter and they don't show up in any stats, except +/-.   Does GA do those things?  I don't know, I don't claim to watch the Bucks... ever.  But if he did do those things, shouldn't hist +/- reflect that? 

At one point this year I remember there being a stat that our most effective three lineups all had one thing in common, KO.  That can't be coincidence can it?  There is a hidden value in what he does that isn't obvious to casual fans or people looking at stats.

I love stats and I'm always looking for gems of players hidden in stats but every stat has its limitations.  In the end, all that really matters in the game of basketball is, did your team score more points than they allowed.  Maybe a player who defers to his teammates actually has more value than someone who scores less efficiently, not of player you are comparing him to, but to the players on the floor with the player you are comparing him to. 

If GA was a STUD.  Shouldn't he be able to lift up the likes of Monroe, Parker, MCW,  Middleton and Henson?  He may be the best of those players, maybe not, but don't tell me the guy is playing with a bunch of stiffs and that is why his and his team's +/- is so bad.  Carmelo, I get.   Davis, maybe.  But GA is surrounded by good NBA players.

You are actually missing an important detail about Antetokounmpo's +/- numbers. Per BasketballReference, he is actually a net positive when he is on the floor, i.e.; his team is better per 100 possessions when he's on the floor than when he's not on the floor. 

He has talented teammates for sure, but that's a very young team with a very inexperienced coach.  The NBA is a learning process.  Can you think of any young prospects in recent years who have come into the league and managed to lead a team to becoming a winning team within their first three years?  I can't. 

Of course saying he'll be a star involves a certain amount of speculation.  It's not a given; he's not a star yet.  To me, though, the body control, the fluidity , the handles, the passing ability and vision, and the aggressiveness that he has to go with his ridiculous body all add up to equalling a player with very, very special potential. 

I realize it's an extremely small sample size, but in the last baker's dozen, his team has been playing just above .500 ball, while Giannis has been putting up unquestionably star-like numbers as a point forward.  I think it's a sign that he's starting to take the next step; we'll see.

[Smokeeye123]

This again??

Giannis can't shoot.

Kelly can't defend.

[Tr1boy]

This again??

Giannis can't shoot.

Kelly can't defend.

Yes he can. Check his efficiency rating

At one pt was at the top

He is a very good team defender

[TheFlex]

That whole draft class is one of the poorest in some time. Giannis might make a few All-Star games. Nerlens might become a 1st team All-Defense and possible DPOY candidate if he can ever get out of Philly and play for a real NBA contender. Oladipo, Schroder and Olynyk are great role players. But the rest of that draft class is pure garbage, IMHO. Danny did well to get one of the top 4-5 players in that draft with the 13th pick and I am a guy that hated the Olynyk pick.

Yeah me too. I was hard on Olynyk and didnt like the pick, wouldve preferred Giannis. However Olynyk seems to have found his niche in this team and is playing consistently. True we couldve gotten the Greek Freak but at least we didnt draft Bennet. We got a quality player at #13 who is playing better than some of those picked ahead of him.

Victor Oladipo
Kentavious Caldwell Pope
Otto Porter
Cody Zeller
Alex Len
CJ McCollum
Michael Carter-Williams
Steven Adams
Shane Larkin
Tony Snell
Gorgui Dieng
Mason Plumlee
Tim Hardaway Jr.
Andre Roberson
Rudy Gobert
Allen Crabbe
Jeff Withey
Mike Muscala
Joffrey Lauvergne


Actually, a remarkably high number of players from the 2013 draft have already shown themselves to be useful NBA players, if not more.

Oladipo, McCollum, Giannis, Gobert look like the highlights, and while none of them is likely to be a perennial All-Star, they're all quite good.

TP. Len has looked great in recent weeks, as well.

This is very simple, I'm not sure why it's continually brought up. You would be a fool - or perhaps just extremely biased - to take the 24, soon to be 25 y/o Olynyk over the 21 y/o Giannis. That is by no means an indication that Olynyk is a bust. If there was a re-draft, Giannis would almost definitely go #1, and definitely in the top 3. If Olynyk is a bust because he's neither the prospect nor player that Giannis is, so is literally every other player in the 2013 Draft.