I like KO, but Giannis is beginning to look like a STUD.

[KeepRondo]

I like GA, I really do.  But you know how people on this board can just tell the team is worse with Zeller on the floor, and they are right. The Bucks are worse when GA is on the floor.  He has a -2.4 +/-.  Why is that? I have no idea but these things seem to play out the same season after season.

That was hilarious.  TP.  But last year he was .1 and the year before a -2.3.  Once you get a good sample size, these +/- stats are pretty consistent. 

Maybe he develops into a superstar, I don't know.  But people dogging KO for GA really don't understand how bad GA is/has been and how consistently good KO has been.    KO started -.1, went to 3.5, and now 3.8. 

Your 500th TP!  Congrats!

Can we ban these +/- stats.

I mean if we put Giannis on our team, his +/- is going way up.

You put Smart on the Suns or Wolves and his are going way down.

This stat is pretty useless.

[chilidawg]

I like GA, I really do.  But you know how people on this board can just tell the team is worse with Zeller on the floor, and they are right. The Bucks are worse when GA is on the floor.  He has a -2.4 +/-.  Why is that? I have no idea but these things seem to play out the same season after season.

That was hilarious.  TP.  But last year he was .1 and the year before a -2.3.  Once you get a good sample size, these +/- stats are pretty consistent. 

Maybe he develops into a superstar, I don't know.  But people dogging KO for GA really don't understand how bad GA is/has been and how consistently good KO has been.    KO started -.1, went to 3.5, and now 3.8. 

Your 500th TP!  Congrats!

Can we ban these +/- stats.

I mean if we put Giannis on our team, his +/- is going way up.

You put Smart on the Suns or Wolves and his are going way down.

This stat is pretty useless.

Right, ignore a stat that tells you more about how a player contributes to his team, and focus on things that matter like double-doubles and points per game.  You can trot out a lineup with Kanter, Carmelo, Rondo, David Lee and Eric Gordon and lose 1000 games a year, but hey, they've got good numbers.

[The Oracle]

I like GA, I really do.  But you know how people on this board can just tell the team is worse with Zeller on the floor, and they are right. The Bucks are worse when GA is on the floor.  He has a -2.4 +/-.  Why is that? I have no idea but these things seem to play out the same season after season.

That was hilarious.  TP.  But last year he was .1 and the year before a -2.3.  Once you get a good sample size, these +/- stats are pretty consistent. 

Maybe he develops into a superstar, I don't know.  But people dogging KO for GA really don't understand how bad GA is/has been and how consistently good KO has been.    KO started -.1, went to 3.5, and now 3.8. 

Your 500th TP!  Congrats!

Can we ban these +/- stats.

I mean if we put Giannis on our team, his +/- is going way up.

You put Smart on the Suns or Wolves and his are going way down.

This stat is pretty useless.

+/- stats are definitely not useless they are however constantly misused.  You can't use them to compare a player from one team to a player on another team to say who is better as KeepRondo says.  You can't use them to say a player is getting better or worse because construction of the players around them changes.  They are a valuable tool to compare players in similar situations on the same team.  As with all statistics they can be very misleading if taken out of context.

[KeepRondo]

I like GA, I really do.  But you know how people on this board can just tell the team is worse with Zeller on the floor, and they are right. The Bucks are worse when GA is on the floor.  He has a -2.4 +/-.  Why is that? I have no idea but these things seem to play out the same season after season.

That was hilarious.  TP.  But last year he was .1 and the year before a -2.3.  Once you get a good sample size, these +/- stats are pretty consistent. 

Maybe he develops into a superstar, I don't know.  But people dogging KO for GA really don't understand how bad GA is/has been and how consistently good KO has been.    KO started -.1, went to 3.5, and now 3.8. 

Your 500th TP!  Congrats!

Can we ban these +/- stats.

I mean if we put Giannis on our team, his +/- is going way up.

You put Smart on the Suns or Wolves and his are going way down.

This stat is pretty useless.

Right, ignore a stat that tells you more about how a player contributes to his team, and focus on things that matter like double-doubles and points per game.  You can trot out a lineup with Kanter, Carmelo, Rondo, David Lee and Eric Gordon and lose 1000 games a year, but hey, they've got good numbers.

Kanter is an awful defender. Don't need a plus minus to figure that out.

Carmelo would be perceived much differently on a better team.

What stats are David Lee exactly posting that makes him look good again?

Rondo could definitely be a very useful player in the right situation.

[Boris Badenov]

I like GA, I really do.  But you know how people on this board can just tell the team is worse with Zeller on the floor, and they are right. The Bucks are worse when GA is on the floor.  He has a -2.4 +/-.  Why is that? I have no idea but these things seem to play out the same season after season.

That was hilarious.  TP.  But last year he was .1 and the year before a -2.3.  Once you get a good sample size, these +/- stats are pretty consistent. 

Maybe he develops into a superstar, I don't know.  But people dogging KO for GA really don't understand how bad GA is/has been and how consistently good KO has been.    KO started -.1, went to 3.5, and now 3.8. 

Your 500th TP!  Congrats!

Can we ban these +/- stats.

I mean if we put Giannis on our team, his +/- is going way up.

You put Smart on the Suns or Wolves and his are going way down.

This stat is pretty useless.

+/- stats are definitely not useless they are however constantly misused.  You can't use them to compare a player from one team to a player on another team to say who is better as KeepRondo says.  You can't use them to say a player is getting better or worse because construction of the players around them changes.  They are a valuable tool to compare players in similar situations on the same team.  As with all statistics they can be very misleading if taken out of context.

For the record, his net plus-minus (which is much more comparable across teams) is +2.1.

His Box plus-minus is +1.4. Also more comparable across teams.

Neither of these are perfect of course but they're much better than simple plus-minus, which has exactly the flaw you describe.

KO's numbers on the two stats above are +4.5 and +1.7, as comparison.

[IDreamCeltics]

If anyone can find ANYONE arguing that KO is a better player than Giannis outside of this blog please post a link and I will give you a Tommy Point. 

[The Oracle]

I like GA, I really do.  But you know how people on this board can just tell the team is worse with Zeller on the floor, and they are right. The Bucks are worse when GA is on the floor.  He has a -2.4 +/-.  Why is that? I have no idea but these things seem to play out the same season after season.

That was hilarious.  TP.  But last year he was .1 and the year before a -2.3.  Once you get a good sample size, these +/- stats are pretty consistent. 

Maybe he develops into a superstar, I don't know.  But people dogging KO for GA really don't understand how bad GA is/has been and how consistently good KO has been.    KO started -.1, went to 3.5, and now 3.8. 

Your 500th TP!  Congrats!

Can we ban these +/- stats.

I mean if we put Giannis on our team, his +/- is going way up.

You put Smart on the Suns or Wolves and his are going way down.

This stat is pretty useless.

+/- stats are definitely not useless they are however constantly misused.  You can't use them to compare a player from one team to a player on another team to say who is better as KeepRondo says.  You can't use them to say a player is getting better or worse because construction of the players around them changes.  They are a valuable tool to compare players in similar situations on the same team.  As with all statistics they can be very misleading if taken out of context.

For the record, his net plus-minus (which is much more comparable across teams) is +2.1.

His Box plus-minus is +1.4. Also more comparable across teams.

Neither of these are perfect of course but they're much better than simple plus-minus, which has exactly the flaw you describe.

KO's numbers on the two stats above are +4.5 and +1.7, as comparison.

Net +/- tells you nothing across teams.  If you have a Net +/- of +2.1 on the Spurs it would be cause for alarm.  If you have a Net +/- of +2.1 on the Knicks having played significant minutes then that is a different story.

[konkmv]

Ade will become a star... olynyc a good player.. expect at least 2 more good greek players to come out the next 2 years

[guava_wrench]

19.9 points, 10.9 rebounds and 7.6 assists per game in the nine games since the All-Star break. Kid is playing PG and is just doing whatever he wants out there...I like KO guys, I really do but the greek freak is looking like a star. I badly wanted him on draft night, and now here we are with KO who won't be more than a role player or fringe starter.

Yet another Danny Ainge draft bust. 

You don't seem to understand what bust means. KO is not a bust. He has shown himself about right for his draft position.

[celticmania]

Yes GA is good but he was a very risky pick.  Its not like anyone in the world can see into the future and know how good anybody in the draft is going to be. Hindsight is you know what. Also just because a better player was choosen after you does not make you a bust.

[danglertx]

If anyone can find ANYONE arguing that KO is a better player than Giannis outside of this blog please post a link and I will give you a Tommy Point.

It would be two random players for people to be comparing to each other outside of this blog don't you think?

[PhoSita]

Giannis is better than Kelly.  He was the steal of the 2013 draft, followed closely by Gobert.

(Gobert, by the way, who we never mention around here, would probably make an even bigger difference for the Celts)

Kelly is a nice player.  He's better than more than a few guys taken ahead of him in the 2013 draft, including the #1 overall pick.



This conversation is played out.  Even Smart versus Randle sounds more interesting at this point.

[number_n9ne]

This conversation is played out.  Even Smart versus Randle sounds more interesting at this point.

THISSSSS. We need a board for people who want to repeat past threads over, and over, and over, and over....

[Boris Badenov]

For the record, his net plus-minus (which is much more comparable across teams) is +2.1.

His Box plus-minus is +1.4. Also more comparable across teams.

Neither of these are perfect of course but they're much better than simple plus-minus, which has exactly the flaw you describe.

KO's numbers on the two stats above are +4.5 and +1.7, as comparison.

Net +/- tells you nothing across teams.  If you have a Net +/- of +2.1 on the Spurs it would be cause for alarm.  If you have a Net +/- of +2.1 on the Knicks having played significant minutes then that is a different story.

That's not true.

Net is the difference between the player's plus-minus with a player on the court, and with that player off the court.

For example LaMarcus Aldridge's net plus-minus this year is -4.0. Of course, the Spurs have a plus-minus of +11.6 with him on the court, because they lead the league in plus-minus.

But, it's +15.6 with him off the court. Hence his negative NET rating.

[Celtics18]

19.9 points, 10.9 rebounds and 7.6 assists per game in the nine games since the All-Star break. Kid is playing PG and is just doing whatever he wants out there...I like KO guys, I really do but the greek freak is looking like a star. I badly wanted him on draft night, and now here we are with KO who won't be more than a role player or fringe starter.

Yet another Danny Ainge draft bust. 

I continue to worry about Antetokounmpo's development. Third year in the league, Kidd is using him as a gimmick at PG, and yet he still has no outside jumpshot.

It's not a gimmick, and he's not a point guard.  He's a forward who handles the ball--you can use the term point forward if you will.

His recent stint as point forward seems to be panning out much better than previous attempts.  Then again, the kid's only twenty-one.  There's a learning curve.  Giannis is way ahead of that curve;  I believe he's well on his way to stardom.