Is Isaiah better than Kyrie?

[DarkAzcura]

The homerism in this thread is reaching dangerous new heights.  We got a chance to watch them play against each other last year in the playoffs and it wasn't even a question.

Mm, yeah how amazing Irving was doing all that work with no talent around him. Didn't even matter that the whole Celtic defense was geared at stopping him. He just completely shattered IT and the enormously offensively talented roster of the Celtics.

Oh wait..

[tarheelsxxiii]

This is a pretty severe example of homerism and groupthink. I'm all for some homerism, esp on a Celtics site... but c'mon now. I encourage anyone to ask NBA, non-Celtic fans to share their opinion. I told 2 old friends from college about this thread and asked for their input in a FB chat -- these are direct quotes:

"Lolll that's honestly laughable!"

"Insane anything like that could get published in any form."

They then quickly compiled a list of PGs better than IT: Chef, Lowry, Kyrie, Paul, Westbrook, Wall, Lillard.

Now if you want to argue he's a better value at his cost relative to others, that's debatable for sure... but that's not the topic that was raised here.

[Rondo9]

This is a pretty severe example of homerism and groupthink. I'm all for some homerism, esp on a Celtics site... but c'mon now. I encourage anyone to ask NBA, non-Celtic fans to share their opinion. I told 2 old friends from college about this thread and asked for their input in a FB chat -- these are direct quotes:

"Lolll that's honestly laughable!"

"Insane anything like that could get published in any form."

They then quickly compiled a list of PGs better than IT: Chef, Lowry, Kyrie, Paul, Westbrook, Wall, Lillard.

Now if you want to argue he's a better value at his cost relative to others, that's debatable for sure... but that's not the topic that was raised here.

Kyrie and Thomas are statistically comparable, I don't think the opinion of a few non- Celtic fans is going to sway that.

[tarheelsxxiii]

This is a pretty severe example of homerism and groupthink. I'm all for some homerism, esp on a Celtics site... but c'mon now. I encourage anyone to ask NBA, non-Celtic fans to share their opinion. I told 2 old friends from college about this thread and asked for their input in a FB chat -- these are direct quotes:

"Lolll that's honestly laughable!"

"Insane anything like that could get published in any form."

They then quickly compiled a list of PGs better than IT: Chef, Lowry, Kyrie, Paul, Westbrook, Wall, Lillard.

Now if you want to argue he's a better value at his cost relative to others, that's debatable for sure... but that's not the topic that was raised here.

Kyrie and Thomas are statistically comparable, I don't think the opinion of a few non- Celtic fans is going to sway that.

Which is why I wrote this 2 pages back:

His stats aren't as impressive right now, but we're not evaluating talent based on stats here, right? If this is strictly a conversation (subjective, necessarily) about talent, you gotta admit that dude is crazy talented. He's just literally never healthy. When he is, he's incredible to watch. World class ball handler and shooter. It's just clear he's never going to be healthy.

What he does with a basketball... I mean, seriously, who else does it? I'm only counting one ahead of him, and that's Chef...

The question is: "Is Isaiah better than Kyrie?" First, that has nothing to do with contracts. Second, they're on much different teams playing much different roles. Comparing their talent alone, in a vacuum, is like comparing night and day.

Are you arguing IT is the better player? If so, I'd absolutely love to hear that (from any one).

[LooseCannon]

There may be something to the theory that Irving is a talented player whose defense leads to a Harden-ish effect on team chemistry.

[Celtics18]

This is a pretty severe example of homerism and groupthink. I'm all for some homerism, esp on a Celtics site... but c'mon now. I encourage anyone to ask NBA, non-Celtic fans to share their opinion. I told 2 old friends from college about this thread and asked for their input in a FB chat -- these are direct quotes:

"Lolll that's honestly laughable!"

"Insane anything like that could get published in any form."

They then quickly compiled a list of PGs better than IT: Chef, Lowry, Kyrie, Paul, Westbrook, Wall, Lillard.

Now if you want to argue he's a better value at his cost relative to others, that's debatable for sure... but that's not the topic that was raised here.

Kyrie and Thomas are statistically comparable, I don't think the opinion of a few non- Celtic fans is going to sway that.

Which is why I wrote this 2 pages back:

His stats aren't as impressive right now, but we're not evaluating talent based on stats here, right? If this is strictly a conversation (subjective, necessarily) about talent, you gotta admit that dude is crazy talented. He's just literally never healthy. When he is, he's incredible to watch. World class ball handler and shooter. It's just clear he's never going to be healthy.

What he does with a basketball... I mean, seriously, who else does it? I'm only counting one ahead of him, and that's Chef...

The question is: "Is Isaiah better than Kyrie?" First, that has nothing to do with contracts. Second, they're on much different teams playing much different roles. Comparing their talent alone, in a vacuum, is like comparing night and day.

Are you arguing IT is the better player? If so, I'd absolutely love to hear that (from any one).

I think stats are a fairly good place to start when comparing who is the better player.  Isaiah is scoring almost 3 points more per game than Irving on a tick less field goal attempts per game.  He's averaging one and a half more assists per game with a better assist to turnover ratio.

If you want to argue about who has more potential that's a different question than "who is the better player right now?"

Objectively speaking, you'd have to give the better player right now edge to Isaiah Thomas despite what your old college chums have to say on the matter.

[Moranis]

This is a pretty severe example of homerism and groupthink. I'm all for some homerism, esp on a Celtics site... but c'mon now. I encourage anyone to ask NBA, non-Celtic fans to share their opinion. I told 2 old friends from college about this thread and asked for their input in a FB chat -- these are direct quotes:

"Lolll that's honestly laughable!"

"Insane anything like that could get published in any form."

They then quickly compiled a list of PGs better than IT: Chef, Lowry, Kyrie, Paul, Westbrook, Wall, Lillard.

Now if you want to argue he's a better value at his cost relative to others, that's debatable for sure... but that's not the topic that was raised here.

Kyrie and Thomas are statistically comparable, I don't think the opinion of a few non- Celtic fans is going to sway that.

Which is why I wrote this 2 pages back:

His stats aren't as impressive right now, but we're not evaluating talent based on stats here, right? If this is strictly a conversation (subjective, necessarily) about talent, you gotta admit that dude is crazy talented. He's just literally never healthy. When he is, he's incredible to watch. World class ball handler and shooter. It's just clear he's never going to be healthy.

What he does with a basketball... I mean, seriously, who else does it? I'm only counting one ahead of him, and that's Chef...

The question is: "Is Isaiah better than Kyrie?" First, that has nothing to do with contracts. Second, they're on much different teams playing much different roles. Comparing their talent alone, in a vacuum, is like comparing night and day.

Are you arguing IT is the better player? If so, I'd absolutely love to hear that (from any one).

I think stats are a fairly good place to start when comparing who is the better player.  Isaiah is scoring almost 3 points more per game than Irving on a tick less field goal attempts per game.  He's averaging one and a half more assists per game with a better assist to turnover ratio.

If you want to argue about who has more potential that's a different question than "who is the better player right now?"

Objectively speaking, you'd have to give the better player right now edge to Isaiah Thomas despite what your old college chums have to say on the matter.

The problem with that statistical analysis is it includes the first month or so of Irving coming back from a major knee injury.  Look at February, when Irving has been at his healthiest, it is a much different statistical analysis (and that includes Irving's 9 minute debacle in OKC). 

[mmmmm]

Has height made Kyrie into a better defender?

judging by DRPM, Isaiah is a better defender.

Height hasn't made Kyrie a better defender, but IT isn't a good defender either. IT and Kyrie are basically the same type of player.

Given the broad, gigantic error bars that should accompany DRPM numbers, as far as that stat is concerned, IT and Kyrie are basically the same defender.

[Dino Pitino]

This is a pretty severe example of homerism and groupthink. I'm all for some homerism, esp on a Celtics site... but c'mon now. I encourage anyone to ask NBA, non-Celtic fans to share their opinion. I told 2 old friends from college about this thread and asked for their input in a FB chat -- these are direct quotes:

"Lolll that's honestly laughable!"

"Insane anything like that could get published in any form."

They then quickly compiled a list of PGs better than IT: Chef, Lowry, Kyrie, Paul, Westbrook, Wall, Lillard.

Now if you want to argue he's a better value at his cost relative to others, that's debatable for sure... but that's not the topic that was raised here.

Just for kicks, their career lines all the way across are about as similar as two stars' lines ever get. Hilariously similar. Not sure I've seen two more similar lines down the whole page.

http://bkref.com/tiny/k9gm7

[chilidawg]

By RPM

Curry
Westbrook
Paul
Lowry
Rubio
Wall
Bledsoe
Walker
Lillard
Jackson.

IT is 14th.  Sorry guys
Irving is 27th.  Not having a good year.  He was 9th last year.

[TheFlex]

I understand, I do. The excuse "but he was injured..." comes with the issue: how often is he injured? Kyrie is injured a notable amount, though the degree to which he is injury-prone is probably overblown. Excluding this season, Kyrie has played in 70 games in two of his first 4 NBA seasons, and 50 games in all of his first 4 seasons. He is on pace to finish this year having appeared in 50+ games, as well.

Ignoring that -- and ignoring that Kyrie is about to turn 24 while IT just turned 27 -- I think tarheels hit the nail on the head: when Kyrie is healthy, this one goes to Kyrie.

In last year's playoffs vs. the Celtics, Irving averaged 23.3p, 5.0r, 4.3a, 1.0s and 1.0b on .435/.480/.808 shooting splits (.578 TS%) in 40.6 mpg. He had ORtg/DRtg splits of 126/104. IT4 averaged 17.5p, 7.0a, 3.0r, 0.8s and 0.0b on .333/.167/.969 shooting splits (.514 TS%) in 29.8 mpg. He had ORtg/DRtg splits of 101/114.

So, OK, fine. IT4 was still adjusting to Boston's system and approach, wasn't playing as many minutes, and just had a bad series in which he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn for 4 games unless he was at the charity stripe.

This season is undoubtedly IT's breakout season. Irving entered the season injured and returned mid-December. Giving Irving 2-3 months to regain form, he should have started approaching peak conditioning and production around the start of February. In his last 15 games (since Feb. 3rd), Irving has averaged 20.3p, 4.5a, 2.1r, and 1.0s on .475/.357/.897 shooting splits in 29.5 mpg. In IT's last 15 games, he is averaging 20.8p, 7.0a, 2.7r, and 1.2s on .413/.338/.888 shooting splits in 32.2 mpg.

I'll agree, IT4 certainly looks like the superior player in that stretch. But that 15 game stretch doesn't offset the dominance Kyrie has proved capable of when healthy. IT will have to be the superior player to Kyrie for at least 1 whole season before I begin to contemplate which player I'd rather have.

IT4's contract makes it an interesting conversation, but one ignored aspect of the financial comparison is that Kyrie is locked up until the summer of 2020, starting this season at $14.75m and ending at $19.17m in 2019-20. Kyrie will be 28 when his contract expires. IT4's contract, however, will expire after next season (summer of '17), when he will be 28. How much will he command on the open market?

All things considered -- age, natural talent/potential, medical history, contract -- I go with Kyrie without blinking. He has the potential to be one of those era-defining scorers, like AI, Kobe or Steph. We'll see if he fulfills it.

[Ilikesports17]

By RPM

Curry
Westbrook
Paul
Lowry
Rubio
Wall
Bledsoe
Walker
Lillard
Jackson.

IT is 14th.  Sorry guys
Irving is 27th.  Not having a good year.  He was 9th last year.

RPM is based on 3 year regressions of other players. bradley turner smart olynyk sully crowder have all made huge strides over that time. RPM is a nice stat but can be misleading. Certainly not a be all end all.

[chilidawg]

By RPM

Curry
Westbrook
Paul
Lowry
Rubio
Wall
Bledsoe
Walker
Lillard
Jackson.

IT is 14th.  Sorry guys
Irving is 27th.  Not having a good year.  He was 9th last year.

RPM is based on 3 year regressions of other players. bradley turner smart olynyk sully crowder have all made huge strides over that time. RPM is a nice stat but can be misleading. Certainly not a be all end all.

Didn't say it was.  But wouldn't the improvement you note tend to inflate IT's RPM?  And it doesn't affect how bad Irving's is.

[Ilikesports17]

By RPM

Curry
Westbrook
Paul
Lowry
Rubio
Wall
Bledsoe
Walker
Lillard
Jackson.

IT is 14th.  Sorry guys
Irving is 27th.  Not having a good year.  He was 9th last year.

RPM is based on 3 year regressions of other players. bradley turner smart olynyk sully crowder have all made huge strides over that time. RPM is a nice stat but can be misleading. Certainly not a be all end all.

Didn't say it was.  But wouldn't the improvement you note tend to inflate IT's RPM?  And it doesn't affect how bad Irving's is.

Yes. Yes it would.

Was more trying to point out flaws in the methodology.

[mmmmm]

This is a pretty severe example of homerism and groupthink. I'm all for some homerism, esp on a Celtics site... but c'mon now. I encourage anyone to ask NBA, non-Celtic fans to share their opinion. I told 2 old friends from college about this thread and asked for their input in a FB chat -- these are direct quotes:

"Lolll that's honestly laughable!"

"Insane anything like that could get published in any form."

They then quickly compiled a list of PGs better than IT: Chef, Lowry, Kyrie, Paul, Westbrook, Wall, Lillard.

Now if you want to argue he's a better value at his cost relative to others, that's debatable for sure... but that's not the topic that was raised here.

Just for kicks, their career lines all the way across are about as similar as two stars' lines ever get. Hilariously similar. Not sure I've seen two more similar lines down the whole page.

http://bkref.com/tiny/k9gm7

Wow.  That is freaky.