Bill Simmons suspects the Celtics don't like this bad draft. Okafor was target.

[Moranis]

at this point Id say its basically fact that Okafor was the target.

Regardless of who was first to report it, essentially every publication has reported it at this point, nobody from the Celtics has disputed it and nobody has reported an alternative.  It was Okafor. 

The only reason some people don't believe it is because it's more fun to believe in some alternative conspiracy theory.   I think that's a giant waste of time.  Instead of sitting here pretending like it was Jimmy Butler, why can't we just focus on the reality of the offer and what that means in relation to our future?   Will we still be able to make a compelling offer for a Philly big this summer?  Should we be concerned about the quality of this draft?  Would Okafor have flourished here?  There's plenty to explore with this story beyond the "maybe Ainge was actually referring to LeBron and just paid Bulpett to report a smokescreen" tinhattery.

Why would somebody from the Celtics dispute it?  Why would they bother?  Why would they care who people think the target was?  Usually they only dispute reports of one of their current players being shopped, to avoid hurting the player's feelings and to keep that player's reputation in tact.

Valid point.  No point in Boston disputing it.  It would be Philly denying the rumors.  That hasn't happened either though, because everyone (including Okafor) knows at least one of those bigs is a sitting duck and it's been known Boston has had interest in Okafor or Noel since pre-draft.  It shouldn't have surprised anyone that we offered the Brooklyn 1st for one of them.

From: http://thesixersense.com/2016/02/19/sam-hinkie-reveals-positives-of-trade-deadline/

"Hinkie implied that the Sixers did take other calls, but they were not “particularly close” on finalizing any deals with other teams."

Either Danny or Hinkie are lying about how close the deal was, or they are both telling the truth and Danny's potential deal wasn't with Philly.

Possible that DA and Hinkie have a different definition of "particularly close."  Whatever benefits their position.

Ah ... so, "different definition" ... euphemism for lying?   Which one has a different definition from:

close
klōs/
adjective
1.
a short distance away or apart in space or time.
"the hotel is close to the sea"
synonyms:   near, adjacent to; More
antonyms:   far, distant
with very little or no space in between; dense.
"cloth with a closer weave"
synonyms:   dense, compact, tight, close-packed, packed, solid; More
narrowly enclosed.
"animals in close confinement"
very near to (being or doing something).
"on a good day the climate in LA is close to perfection"
synonyms:   near, on the verge of, on the brink of, on the point of
"I was close to tears"
(with reference to a competitive situation) won or likely to be won by only a small amount or distance.
"the race will be a close contest"
synonyms:   evenly matched, even, with nothing to choose between them, neck and neck; informaleven-steven
"a very close match"
adverb
adverb: close; comparative adverb: closer
1.
in a position so as to be very near to someone or something; with very little space between.
"they stood close to the door"

You aren't considering that Ainge might have thought the trade was close and that Philly backed out at the last minute, but that Philly never actually thought the trade was close and never really considered it, but just delayed telling Ainge to keep all options open.

Thus, Ainge says the trade was close with the other team backing out at the last minute is entirely 100% true (from his perspective).  Similarly, Philly say no trade was particularly close, could also very well be 100% true from their perspective.  And it is the exact same trade being discussed.

[Evantime34]

at this point Id say its basically fact that Okafor was the target.

Regardless of who was first to report it, essentially every publication has reported it at this point, nobody from the Celtics has disputed it and nobody has reported an alternative.  It was Okafor. 

The only reason some people don't believe it is because it's more fun to believe in some alternative conspiracy theory.   I think that's a giant waste of time.  Instead of sitting here pretending like it was Jimmy Butler, why can't we just focus on the reality of the offer and what that means in relation to our future?   Will we still be able to make a compelling offer for a Philly big this summer?  Should we be concerned about the quality of this draft?  Would Okafor have flourished here?  There's plenty to explore with this story beyond the "maybe Ainge was actually referring to LeBron and just paid Bulpett to report a smokescreen" tinhattery.

Why would somebody from the Celtics dispute it?  Why would they bother?  Why would they care who people think the target was?  Usually they only dispute reports of one of their current players being shopped, to avoid hurting the player's feelings and to keep that player's reputation in tact.

Valid point.  No point in Boston disputing it.  It would be Philly denying the rumors.  That hasn't happened either though, because everyone (including Okafor) knows at least one of those bigs is a sitting duck and it's been known Boston has had interest in Okafor or Noel since pre-draft.  It shouldn't have surprised anyone that we offered the Brooklyn 1st for one of them.

From: http://thesixersense.com/2016/02/19/sam-hinkie-reveals-positives-of-trade-deadline/

"Hinkie implied that the Sixers did take other calls, but they were not “particularly close” on finalizing any deals with other teams."

Either Danny or Hinkie are lying about how close the deal was, or they are both telling the truth and Danny's potential deal wasn't with Philly.

Possible that DA and Hinkie have a different definition of "particularly close."  Whatever benefits their position.

Ah ... so, "different definition" ... euphemism for lying?   Which one has a different definition from:

close
klōs/
adjective
1.
a short distance away or apart in space or time.
"the hotel is close to the sea"
synonyms:   near, adjacent to; More
antonyms:   far, distant
with very little or no space in between; dense.
"cloth with a closer weave"
synonyms:   dense, compact, tight, close-packed, packed, solid; More
narrowly enclosed.
"animals in close confinement"
very near to (being or doing something).
"on a good day the climate in LA is close to perfection"
synonyms:   near, on the verge of, on the brink of, on the point of
"I was close to tears"
(with reference to a competitive situation) won or likely to be won by only a small amount or distance.
"the race will be a close contest"
synonyms:   evenly matched, even, with nothing to choose between them, neck and neck; informaleven-steven
"a very close match"
adverb
adverb: close; comparative adverb: closer
1.
in a position so as to be very near to someone or something; with very little space between.
"they stood close to the door"

They can have different definitions of close because close is subjective.

Using your definition: "a short distance away or apart in space or time." A short distance isn't a specific amount. If two people are 6 feet away from a wall one might consider themselves close to the wall while the other doesn't.

If Ainge thought "hey talks went well, if Hinkie accepts our proposal it's a done deal". While Hinkie could think "talks went OK, but I'm not accepting this deal until I get more". One thinks they are close the other doesn't.

I'll actually concede the following.   It's possible both sides of this argument are right.

If what Evantime says is true, Boston offered the Brooklyn 1st and Bradley for Okafor and Philly countered with Okafor for Brooklyn 1st, Olynyk and Smart - killing the deal.  Let's assume this is accurate and happened.  There were rumors about Ainge going hard after Okafor even before the draft.  We've heard rumors about him targetting one of those bigs all season.   Okafor was being shopped per reports.  Makes total logical sense that we'd offer up the questionable Brooklyn 1st and a decent player for a pretty can't miss known star prospect. 

It's then also possible that another secret special offer with a mystery team was made close to the deadline... something that would be a risk to both teams... something that would include the Brooklyn pick and would be considered a "big package" as Ainge referred to it.  Perhaps that was something like the Brooklyn 1st, Dallas 1st, Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder, and Marcus Smart, for Paul George... perhaps both teams gave it considerable thought... and last minute the Pacers decided against it. 

Then perhaps when Bulpett investigated what this "mystery trade" had been, he heard about the offer we made to Philly (Bradley and the Brooklyn 1st) for Okafor and assumed that was the trade Ainge was talking about.   

There... that's a conspiracy theory that should satisfy both sides.

Yeah I don't think Ainge would leak the actual deal to Bulpett. I think there was another big trade in the pipeline and Ainge told Bulpett about Okafor as a misdirection so a deal could be completed in the offseason.

[celticsclay]

[tarheelsxxiii]

Agree with Moranis -- easy to see how both could be telling the truth from their perspectives.

Ainge: sending along a proposal that was considered for 2 days, right up until the deadline, may well have given him the sense that it was being seriously considered and hopeful that it'd go through. It could be nothing beyond that, or they may have expressed interest. Doesn't matter.

Sixers (Hinkie/Colangelo/both?): obviously gave the deal consideration in sitting on it for 2 days, but perhaps they couldn't warm up to it all that much.

-Or...they seriously considered the offer but, given Embiid is still an unknown (albeit looking good right now), it's still just too soon. The haul was enticing enough for them to seriously consider, though, for the very reason that it increased their odds so greatly of landing the #1 or #2 pick.

-Or...they may not be comfortable sharing that they were close, as that puts a value (that isn't so great, in a vacuum) on Okafor, who they will likely be moving in the not-so-distant future (depending on Embiid). 

[LarBrd33]

Agree with Moranis -- easy to see how both could be telling the truth from their perspectives.

Ainge: sending along a proposal that was considered for 2 days, right up until the deadline, may well have given him the sense that it was being seriously considered and hopeful that it'd go through. It could be nothing beyond that, or they may have expressed interest. Doesn't matter.

Sixers (Hinkie/Colangelo/both?): obviously gave the deal consideration in sitting on it for 2 days, but perhaps they couldn't warm up to it all that much.

-Or...they seriously considered the offer but, given Embiid is still an unknown (albeit looking good right now), it's still just too soon. The haul was enticing enough for them to seriously consider, though, for the very reason that it increased their odds so greatly of landing the #1 or #2 pick.

-Or...they may not be comfortable sharing that they were close, as that puts a value (that isn't so great, in a vacuum) on Okafor, who they will likely be moving in the not-so-distant future (depending on Embiid).

TP

[max215]

My thoughts on the situation:

1. Danny was interested in, and made a sizable offer for Okafor, quite possibly including the Brooklyn Pick.

2. It is very possible that Okafor, while a target, was not THE target from the mystery trade.

3. Danny is still interested in Okafor and (if he's a different person) the mystery target.

On the one hand this whole Okafor thing makes sense, but in other ways it really doesn't. Okafor was rumored to us on draft night, so he is not a huge surprise, and we know Philly was listening to calls about him. Okafor is also not a star. Conclusively, we know that Danny made big offers, at least one of which wold have been a surprise had the deal gone through, and he's interested in Okafor. Everything else is up for debate.

[greece66]

Listened to the most recent Bill Simmons podcast with Joe House.  Celtic talk around 34:30:  http://thebillsimmonspodcast.tumblr.com/post/139803507038/joe-house-on-curry-vs-cp3-and-the-dud-potential

Bill admits the Celtics offered the Brooklyn pick for Okafor.  Both he and House agreed they would have traded the Brooklyn pick for Okafor.  Joe House: "oh god yes".  They both like Okafor's game.  Believe he could have fit with Boston. 

They go into the draft a bit.  Bill suspects the Celtics don't like this draft.  Ben Simmons has nice potential, but they question his aggressiveness.  He can't shoot and he's soft.   Ingram is years away.  They cite an article that said the second half of the 2015 lottery (Stanley Johnson, Kaminsky, Winslow, Turner, Lyes, Booker, etc) being better than the 2016 draft.

Bill lamented the fact we might end up with multiple lottery picks in one of the worst drafts in a while. 

Bill's a bit of a pessimist, but it's interesting.  He obviously has ties in the league, so him confirming that Okafor was the target locks it in for me.  I 95% believed the report.  I'm up to 100%. 

That said, I agree with the CelticsBlog article today that suggested the Brooklyn pick wouldn't have been the only piece we offered:  http://www.celticsblog.com/2016/2/24/11104604/deciphering-the-celtics-deadline-day-jahlil-okafor-talks 

First of all, I can't imagine for the life of me why Philly would give up a guy like Okafor (who might end up being better than every single player in this draft) for a draft pick that can very easily fall outside the top 5.  Second of all, if you listen to Ainge's radio interview (before it was revealed Okafor was the target), he references offering a big "package" including the Brooklyn pick.   Have to wonder what else we would have been sending to Philly.   I suspect it was either Marcus Smart or Avery Bradley.  Interesting to see the Philly blogger in that CelticsBlog article saying he wouldn't trade Okafor for Marcus Smart and the Brooklyn pick if it falls outside the top 2. 

B.M.: There seemed to be some indication that talks could begin again later. From Ainge's aggressiveness you'd have to think he likes Okafor more than this draft himself. What do you think it would take from Boston's end to move Okafor in June? With the BKN pick, there's the wild possibility that PHI could end up with 3 picks in the top five, which has to be unprecedented.

J.P.: If the Brooklyn pick is top two, then yeah, I make the trade. Personally, not going to be much interested otherwise. Maybe Philly would be interested in the Brooklyn pick, Marcus Smart and other filler, but that doesn't appeal to me.

Nonetheless, it's going to be an interesting Summer.  Philly will inevitably move one of their bigs and Ainge might be anxious to get rid of draft picks.   HOpefully a deal goes down.

The bolded quote seems to me excessively pessimistic.

Moreover, it is good to bear on mind that the 2015 draft was exceptionally good. Compare the class of 2016 with that of 2013 and things suddenly look much less bleak.

Brooklyn pick + AB for Okafor? Done in a split second and never looking back...

Not so sure about throwing Smart in that deal.

PS: BS is very insightful when it comes to discussing history. Not so sure about the future. Just recall the 20 mins YouTube presentation of our 2014-15 season. iirc the only thing he got right was that we were trading Rondo (but with the wrong team). Not that I am holding a grudge or anything, but you know, predictions about the future, risky stuff...

[chambers]

I still don't understand how Bill Simmons regurgitating this with his mate is treated by some as if it's credible and stamps it's validity...

Bill Simmons is as credible as a realgm insider. When has he ever had the inside scoop on anything?  The guy is a happy go lucky fan who has less clue about the Celtics than the average Celticsblog poster.

This entire thread is an opinion based on Bulpett's rumor.

[LarBrd33]

I still don't understand how Bill Simmons regurgitating this with his mate is treated by some as if it's credible and stamps it's validity...

Bill Simmons is as credible as a realgm insider.

Bill Simmons has a few more sources than "CROTOR".   He's arguably the biggest sports media personality out there.  Has interviews with players, coaches, GM's.  Has connections with media types in local and national publications.  Is personal friends with NBA GMs and team personnel on multiple teams.  If he says it was Okafor, I'd give him a little more credit than "oh he saw it on a twitter feed so he's assuming it's true".   I think it's pretty naive to assume Bill Simmons doesn't have his ear to insider information.  He's broken stories in the past.  Don't misinterpret his "I'm just one of you fans!" gimmick with a lack of knowledge.   He has a shtick which has made him boatloads of cash, but he's also pretty embedded with insiders at this point.

[crimson_stallion]

I suspect you're full of s**t. There's no chance that Ainge would offer the Brooklyn pick and Smart for Okafor at this juncture of their careers.

If the Brooklyn pick was 6th or 7th? Then maybe. But now? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Ainge called the offer a "risk".  Offering the Brooklyn pick for Okafor is in no way a "risk" for Boston.  That's a no-brainer.  Had to include addition pieces.

Of course it's a risk.

The Brooklyn pick has superstar potential (Simmons).  Okafor IMHO does not.

I dont buy the "soft and cant shoot" comments either.  They were the exact same arguments used against Wiggins and he seems to he doing A-OK.

Talent and versatility are worth a lot in this league.  Shooting is one the things i worry least about because there are many players who have started out as mediocre shooters and become pretty good ones.  Im more concerned about things like rebounding, defense, scoring ability, passing ability and physical attributes.  Just me though.

[chambers]

I still don't understand how Bill Simmons regurgitating this with his mate is treated by some as if it's credible and stamps it's validity...

Bill Simmons is as credible as a realgm insider.

Bill Simmons has a few more sources than "CROTOR".   He's arguably the biggest sports media personality out there.  Has interviews with players, coaches, GM's.  Has connections with media types in local and national publications.  Is personal friends with NBA GMs and team personnel on multiple teams.  If he says it was Okafor, I'd give him a little more credit than "oh he saw it on a twitter feed so he's assuming it's true".   I think it's pretty naive to assume Bill Simmons doesn't have his ear to insider information.  He's broken stories in the past.  Don't misinterpret his "I'm just one of you fans!" gimmick with a lack of knowledge.   He has a shtick which has made him boatloads of cash, but he's also pretty embedded with insiders at this point.

His schtick has made him a load of cash, but his schtick is being a goofy comedian with some sports thrown in.

What stories has he broken before and who are his NBA GM/-front office friends?
I've just never heard him break anything. He's friends with Marc Stein...who else?
I think it's naive to suggest he's some kind of keyed in 'insider'.
If you can point me to some if his previous 'insider' stuff or breaking stories I'll gladly take a look.
His trade ideas are often copy and pasted straight from RealGM and here,  and his personal trade proposals are often pretty clueless from a basketball standpoint.

Funny guy, likes the Celtics, has some good entertainment, but I'd stop there.

[indeedproceed]

I still don't understand how Bill Simmons regurgitating this with his mate is treated by some as if it's credible and stamps it's validity...

Bill Simmons is as credible as a realgm insider.

Bill Simmons has a few more sources than "CROTOR".   He's arguably the biggest sports media personality out there.  Has interviews with players, coaches, GM's.  Has connections with media types in local and national publications.  Is personal friends with NBA GMs and team personnel on multiple teams.  If he says it was Okafor, I'd give him a little more credit than "oh he saw it on a twitter feed so he's assuming it's true".   I think it's pretty naive to assume Bill Simmons doesn't have his ear to insider information.  He's broken stories in the past.  Don't misinterpret his "I'm just one of you fans!" gimmick with a lack of knowledge.   He has a shtick which has made him boatloads of cash, but he's also pretty embedded with insiders at this point.

His schtick has made him a load of cash, but his schtick is being a goofy comedian with some sports thrown in.

What stories has he broken before and who are his NBA GM/-front office friends?
I've just never heard him break anything. He's friends with Marc Stein...who else?
I think it's naive to suggest he's some kind of keyed in 'insider'.
If you can point me to some if his previous 'insider' stuff or breaking stories I'll gladly take a look.
His trade ideas are often copy and pasted straight from RealGM and here,  and his personal trade proposals are often pretty clueless from a basketball standpoint.

Funny guy, likes the Celtics, has some good entertainment, but I'd stop there.

I think Simmons has 'sources', and I think its very possible he has 'sources' within the Celtics. I say that because he's said stuff in the past (usually about whether or not a rumor happened, similar to alleged Okafor offer) and said "I was told X" or something similar. Simmons was more tuned in when he was working for ESPN, he got the juiciest stuff not fit to print.

I don't think that's the case here though.

[chambers]

Listened to the most recent Bill Simmons podcast with Joe House.  Celtic talk around 34:30:  http://thebillsimmonspodcast.tumblr.com/post/139803507038/joe-house-on-curry-vs-cp3-and-the-dud-potential

Bill admits the Celtics offered the Brooklyn pick for Okafor.  Both he and House agreed they would have traded the Brooklyn pick for Okafor.  Joe House: "oh god yes".  They both like Okafor's game.  Believe he could have fit with Boston. 

They go into the draft a bit.  Bill suspects the Celtics don't like this draft.  Ben Simmons has nice potential, but they question his aggressiveness.  He can't shoot and he's soft.   Ingram is years away.  They cite an article that said the second half of the 2015 lottery (Stanley Johnson, Kaminsky, Winslow, Turner, Lyes, Booker, etc) being better than the 2016 draft.

Bill lamented the fact we might end up with multiple lottery picks in one of the worst drafts in a while. 

Bill's a bit of a pessimist, but it's interesting.  He obviously has ties in the league, so him confirming that Okafor was the target locks it in for me.  I 95% believed the report.  I'm up to 100%. 

That said, I agree with the CelticsBlog article today that suggested the Brooklyn pick wouldn't have been the only piece we offered:  http://www.celticsblog.com/2016/2/24/11104604/deciphering-the-celtics-deadline-day-jahlil-okafor-talks 

First of all, I can't imagine for the life of me why Philly would give up a guy like Okafor (who might end up being better than every single player in this draft) for a draft pick that can very easily fall outside the top 5.  Second of all, if you listen to Ainge's radio interview (before it was revealed Okafor was the target), he references offering a big "package" including the Brooklyn pick.   Have to wonder what else we would have been sending to Philly.   I suspect it was either Marcus Smart or Avery Bradley.  Interesting to see the Philly blogger in that CelticsBlog article saying he wouldn't trade Okafor for Marcus Smart and the Brooklyn pick if it falls outside the top 2. 

B.M.: There seemed to be some indication that talks could begin again later. From Ainge's aggressiveness you'd have to think he likes Okafor more than this draft himself. What do you think it would take from Boston's end to move Okafor in June? With the BKN pick, there's the wild possibility that PHI could end up with 3 picks in the top five, which has to be unprecedented.

J.P.: If the Brooklyn pick is top two, then yeah, I make the trade. Personally, not going to be much interested otherwise. Maybe Philly would be interested in the Brooklyn pick, Marcus Smart and other filler, but that doesn't appeal to me.

Nonetheless, it's going to be an interesting Summer.  Philly will inevitably move one of their bigs and Ainge might be anxious to get rid of draft picks.   HOpefully a deal goes down.

The bolded quote seems to me excessively pessimistic.

Moreover, it is good to bear on mind that the 2015 draft was exceptionally good. Compare the class of 2016 with that of 2013 and things suddenly look much less bleak.

Brooklyn pick + AB for Okafor? Done in a split second and never looking back...

Not so sure about throwing Smart in that deal.

PS: BS is very insightful when it comes to discussing history. Not so sure about the future. Just recall the 20 mins YouTube presentation of our 2014-15 season. iirc the only thing he got right was that we were trading Rondo (but with the wrong team). Not that I am holding a grudge or anything, but you know, predictions about the future, risky stuff...

TP 666

[chambers]

I still don't understand how Bill Simmons regurgitating this with his mate is treated by some as if it's credible and stamps it's validity...

Bill Simmons is as credible as a realgm insider.

Bill Simmons has a few more sources than "CROTOR".   He's arguably the biggest sports media personality out there.  Has interviews with players, coaches, GM's.  Has connections with media types in local and national publications.  Is personal friends with NBA GMs and team personnel on multiple teams.  If he says it was Okafor, I'd give him a little more credit than "oh he saw it on a twitter feed so he's assuming it's true".   I think it's pretty naive to assume Bill Simmons doesn't have his ear to insider information.  He's broken stories in the past.  Don't misinterpret his "I'm just one of you fans!" gimmick with a lack of knowledge.   He has a shtick which has made him boatloads of cash, but he's also pretty embedded with insiders at this point.

His schtick has made him a load of cash, but his schtick is being a goofy comedian with some sports thrown in.

What stories has he broken before and who are his NBA GM/-front office friends?
I've just never heard him break anything. He's friends with Marc Stein...who else?
I think it's naive to suggest he's some kind of keyed in 'insider'.
If you can point me to some if his previous 'insider' stuff or breaking stories I'll gladly take a look.
His trade ideas are often copy and pasted straight from RealGM and here,  and his personal trade proposals are often pretty clueless from a basketball standpoint.

Funny guy, likes the Celtics, has some good entertainment, but I'd stop there.

I think Simmons has 'sources', and I think its very possible he has 'sources' within the Celtics. I say that because he's said stuff in the past (usually about whether or not a rumor happened, similar to alleged Okafor offer) and said "I was told X" or something similar. Simmons was more tuned in when he was working for ESPN, he got the juiciest stuff not fit to print.

I don't think that's the case here though.

He may hear something every now and then down the line from his buddy Stein, but I honestly question any direct contacts or insider info he has.
He comes across as a slightly uninformed spectator and his humor lets him get away with his *interesting* ideas.
Anyway I just want someone to show me where he broke a real story/trade or the evidence for his friendships with GM's/FO connections.

[ahonui06]

I don't like the trade for Okafor because of the simple fact he plays absolutely no defense and turns the ball over at an alarming rate. He also doesn't improve the 76ers when he is on the court compared to when he is off the court. (Yes, I do understand they are the 76ers lol).