Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)

[LarBrd33]

I get that anyone can say arguing about anything on the internet is a waste of time, but that being said.... I don't understand how you guys can both be so invested in a conversation that likely will never be resolved. Furthermore, it is a hypothetical situation that didn't happen. I get that Larbrd like's Okafor. I get that other people don't like him as much. Still the intense debate of pretending who we know was involved in a proposed trade that didn't happened seems extremely asinine no?

Part of the problem is that people haven't actually listened to Ainge's original interview.  I just listened to it.  http://www.csnne.com/boston-celtics/danny-ainge-other-team-backed-out-big-trade  ... Nowhere in there does Ainge say it was a star.   They talk about him offering the Brooklyn pick and ask if he had any potential deals fall through.  He mentioned they put together a bigger package (presumably involving the Brooklyn pick) that would have been a risk for both teams and that the other team backed down.   Later, someone on twitter said "Ainge told me the deal was never reported" ... meaning, nobody (at that point) had yet reported the story that Boston was trying to trade the Brooklyn pick and additional assets for Okafor. 

Eventually, Bulpett reported it.  It was also mentioned on the ESPN broadcast that Okafor was the target.  There's 70+ other publications that have now reported it was Okafor (boston globe, herald, cbssports, foxsports, philly.com, etc)  The guy who tweeted about Ainge saying the deal was "never reported" also eventually tweeted about Okafor being the target and admitted it made sense.

It was Okafor.  People can dislike him and dislike the idea all they want, but this group denial is mainly combo of two things...

#1 - People hate anything Philly-related around here... nobody wants to admit that Philly's method landed them some incredibly valuable pieces.

#2 - People are grossly overestimating the trade value of the Brooklyn pick right now.

As you'd expect, Philly fans think the rumor is pretty stupid:  http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/20160222_Okafor-to-Boston_rumor_scary.html

And they are right.  You don't trade a player like Okafor for an unprotected pick in a draft where maybe 1 guy has more potential than Okafor.  It's incredibly stupid.  I wonder what else was included in the "bigger package" surrounding the pick.  My guess is either Bradley, Smart or a combo of the d-leaguers.  Something more had to be included for Philly to consider it... and something more had to be included for Ainge to say they deliberated on it for 2 days.  If it was just Brooklyn pick for Okafor straight-up, Ainge pulls the trigger on that without hesitation.   No-brainer.   

Naturally, fans want to believe it was a more juicy talent.  I skimmed that stupid realgm thread and people were speculating it was Anthony Davis or Karl Towns.   Obviously if your expectations are a Karl Towns or Anthony Davis, you're going to be disappointed to learn the actual target was Jahlil Okafor.  But Okafor is a legit piece.  It makes perfect sense that Ainge tried to land him.  I hope we keep trying this Summer.

[sawick48]

These teams really are saving Danny from himself and I'm nothing but grateful for it.  All those picks for Winslow on draft night and the Brooklyn pick for Okafor would have been a disaster if the Brooklyn pick actually won the lottery.  And based on history, you'd rather have the 3-5 most lottery balls than the first anyway, which is where it's looking like Brooklyn will (hopefully) finish.

Love the people around here that just think Okafor's defense is something easily fixable.  He's a decent passer for a big but he's not even close to a guy like Al Jefferson on teh defensive end, and Al J is no Bill Russell.  Been trying to rack my brain to come up with bigs that were big prospects coming into the league and were BAD defensively, but eventually became serviceable on that end.  Maybe Bogut?  But Bogut was never really bad, and he's not exactly a rim protector now either.  Otherwise.....I got nothing.

Rim protection and defending the elite bigs in the league isn't something you can just go out and buy at Best Buy and equip for the next season.  Way too much love for an Okafor possibility for my liking.  I'm glad we kept the pick, whether it ends up #1 or #9.  The guy can get into bar fights and drive 108mph risking his life for someone else's team, thanks.

[LarBrd33]

These teams really are saving Danny from himself and I'm nothing but grateful for it.  All those picks for Winslow on draft night and the Brooklyn pick for Okafor would have been a disaster if the Brooklyn pick actually won the lottery.

Yeah in the less than 10% chance the pick ended up Ben Simmons, there's a decent chance the Celtics would regret it.  That's assuming Ben Simmons isn't a massive disappointment on the NBA level.  That's also assuming Okafor doesn't make a giant leap and surpass every player in the 2016 draft. 

In the greater than 90% chance the pick didn't end up Ben Simmons, there's a very likely chance Philly would regret it since supposedly this draft isn't all that great.

The Brooklyn pick was part of a larger package for Okafor.  The pick straight-up would make no sense for Philly.  If you don't understand why it would make no sense for Philly, go back to the thread where some 80+% of fans here voted that they wouldn't trade Marcus Smart (a lesser prospect than Okafor) for the Suns unprotected pick (a better pick than Brooklyn's).   

[alldaboston]

Okafor was obviously Danny's target.  Is what it is.  We had every reason to try trading for him.  He was obviously available. Can't blame philly for backing out.

This doesn't fit with the conversations with Danny.

1) Comment about the trade being for a star - Okafor isn't a star.  He's a prospect with a very bright future, but definitely not a star.

2) The comment about the trade being a big risk for both teams - doesn't really make much sense to me if it's Okafor.  The guy isn't really injury prone, he's on a cheapish rookie contract, he's already putting up some numbers.  Every trade involves some risk, but I wouldn't say that this is a major risk for either team.

3) The comment about the team deciding to 'stick it out this year and see how they go, then revisit it later'.  That makes zero sense if it's the Sixers.  They are the worst team in the entire NBA.  They have no hope of making a run this year and even sniffing the playoffs.  It just doesn't fit.  You could argue they want to wait to see how things go with Embiid's health by the time the offseason comes...or wait to see where the Brooklyn pick lands.  But even then it doesn't really fit what was said, which seems to suggest that they wanted to wait and see how the team can do.  We all know how the Sixers are going to finish the season, so there is zero suspense there.   

For that reason, Okafor just doesn't seem to make nay logical sense to me, based on the conversations reported. Not unless you specifically twist it around.

#1 - Contrary to how it was reported, Danny never actually called the target a star.  He said the team was very close to adding a high-quality player.  Despite the naysayers, Okafor is 20 years old and putting up outstanding stats for a rookie.  His touch around the rim is phenomenal.  He's averaging  17.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 1.4 blocks with 50% shooting in 30mpg.  He's basically a lock for him to be a 20 and 10 player.  His floor is Brook Lopez/Al Jefferson.  He also fills an obvious need for this team - SIZE.   He's a high quality player and someone who has tangible superstar potential... that's an obvious target for Boston.  If they can buy low on a guy with superstar potential, it's better than keeping a pick that is unlikely to end up in the top 2 (very unlikely to be a player of the caliber of Okafor).

#2 - Obvious risk for Philly.  Trading away Okafor a pick that might end up being outside the top 5?... HUGE risk.  Borderline insane risk.  They can get much more for him from a different team this summer.  Selling low on a prospect like Okafor is foolish.  It shouldn't be surprise that Philly backed out.     As for Boston, I'd say that giving up the brooklyn 1st for Okafor is a complete no-brainer.  Ainge isn't going to say that, though.   If he has any hope of landing Okafor later, he can't admit that our position in the trade was a "no brainer".   He has to say "hey we are taking a risk on a guy with attitude problems and a game that doesn't fit the modern NBA.  He could destroy our chemistry!  We're 3rd in the East!  That pick is probably going to be Ben Simmons... the next phenom!  HUGE risk for Boston.   HUUUGE!!!"...  ALso, we don't know what else Boston was giving up in the deal.  If it involved giving up the Brooklyn pick + Smart or Bradley, that's a considerable gamble by Boston. 

#3 - It AbSOLUTELY fits.  Seriously?  It's foolish for Philly to trade Okafor right now.  They would have been stupid to do that.  If they wait until the summer they can see if Embiid is healthy,they can see where various teams land in the lotto, they can see who becomes available, etc.  Also, despite the assertions from the casuals here, the reality is that barring injury there's no way no way Okafor or Noel's trade value goes any lower than it is right now.  Okafor put up 33 points last night.  Noel is continuing to improve.  Those two are still finding their way in this league.  It's clear they can't coexist, but teams around the league aren't braindead... they know what kind of potential both of those guys have.  There will still be tons of offers this summer.  You never know who will make an offer. Perhaps Portland will offer up CJ McCollum for their least favorite big.   Perhaps the Bucks will offer up Jabari Parker.  Maybe the Magic will offer up a package built around Aaron Gordon and Mario Hezonja.  Maybe the Lakers will decide to give up D'Angelo Russell.    Trading Okafor for that Brooklyn pick would have been dumb.  Bottom line.  Trading Okafor for that Brooklyn pick + Smart or Bradley?... intriguing, but still probably better to wait until the Summer.

I also want to point out some additional things here.   

Ainge isn't an idiot.  Ainge knows what Okafor can bring to the table.  He knows that kid has incredible potential.   Maybe he has defensive limitations, but most 20 year old rookies do.  His talent is undeniable.   Here's some random thoughts to take into consideration when talking about Okafor to Boston.

- His limitations now are the same limitations we were aware of prior to him being drafted.  He's the player as advertised.  Uncanny offensive ability.  Low post beast.  Real size.  Defensive struggles.   That's why he went 3rd instead of 1st. 

- His rookie season is supremely underrated.   That kid can ball.  It's being overshadowed by Karl Towns.   Porzingus gets a lot of deserved press as well, but that's partially a result of him playing on the Knicks... he's a tiny bit overrated.

- There were reported prior to the draft that the Celtics were willing to offer Philly a godfather offer if Okafor fell to them.  Okafor has been a target for a while.  Conflicting reports on what we actually offered (there was a rumored offer of Smart and #16 for #3 and Noel that was later called a joke rumor by Bill Simmons).

Okafor's attitude: 

I want to comment on this.  Let's think about Okafor's perspective here.

#1 - He's been a winner at every level.  He won a NCAA TItle as a Freshman.  If Losing isn't taking a toll on him, that's not the kind of player we should want.

#2 - Okafor knows Philly didn't want him.  Philly was desperate to get D'Angelo Russell.  Okafor was supposed to end up on the Lakers, but Los Angeles got cute.  Some suggest the Lakers were trying to force Philly into paying extra for Russell.   Nonetheless, Okafor ends up in probably the worst possible situation.  The team has zero intention of winning this year.  The team already has a cornerstone quality big in Noel and a player frequently referred to as the franchise player (Embiid) at his position.  It had to be clear to him from day 1 that he was there, because he was the best player available... not because Philly intends to build around him. 

#3 - Building on above, Okafor knows his role in Philly is "asset".  From day 1, it has to be clear to him that it's unlikely they keep him.  How can he get emotionally invested when he knows he's a sitting duck?  If Healthy, that's Embiid's team.  Noel is the guy who fits their system now.  Okafor is a trade chip.   He's a 20 year old trying to adjust to this league and he's playing on a team that very likely isn't keeping him... while suffering through loss after loss after loss.  That's got to suck.

#4 - I want to remind everyone that Larry 'freakin Bird deformed his finger in bar fight in the middle of the playoffs.  His shooting percentage suffered and it likely cost us a championship that year.  Do you really think Ainge is above taking a risk on a wildly talent 20 year old kid who drunkenly shoved someone on camera and got caught speeding?   

I fully believe the report that Okafor was the target.  Makes complete sense.   My only hope is that the Brooklyn pick stays valuable enough that we are in position to snag one of those Philly bigs this Summer.   I'd be happy with any one of them.  They clearly have to trade 1 (or 2) and I can't see them waiting much longer. 

The offer was for Okafor.   Come to terms with it.

There's literally nothing to suggest it was Okafur other than Bulpett's tweet,  and Ainge didn't say anything about it not being a star. 
 All he said was that it wasn't one of the rumored guys like Love, Howard or Horford.

Given that the Bulls tried to trade Gasol to the Kings, it's just as easy to speculate that it was for Jimmy Butler who is possibly screaming for a way out of Chicago's mediocrity mill right now.

Go to the RealGM Bulls board and look at the thread where at least half of their reg posters are saying it could definitely have been for Jimmy B.
Perfect time for Bulls to cash in on Butler with some Brooklyn  picks, the Kings lottery pick and their own lottery pick while they develop Mcdermott and Portis.

If Bulpett got the info from the Celtics,  there's a very strong argument to say that they purposely leaked Okafur to throw people off and protect a potential trade in the offseason.

Could it have been Butler?  Sure.  Was it Butler?  No.  It was Okafor.

Hey guys. It was Okafor. Let's wait until the summer. Danny will surely get him in the summer. LarBrd is always right. He's never wrong. I can't wait for Okafor to be a Celtic in July! Oh goody, thank goodness we have such wonderful insiders and analysts like LarBrd here, who know exactly what was going on in Danny's office. What a great guy.

[Ilikesports17]

These teams really are saving Danny from himself and I'm nothing but grateful for it.  All those picks for Winslow on draft night and the Brooklyn pick for Okafor would have been a disaster if the Brooklyn pick actually won the lottery.

Yeah in the less than 10% chance the pick ended up Ben Simmons, there's a decent chance the Celtics would regret it.  That's assuming Ben Simmons isn't a massive disappointment on the NBA level.  That's also assuming Okafor doesn't make a giant leap and surpass every player in the 2016 draft. 

In the greater than 90% chance the pick didn't end up Ben Simmons, there's a very likely chance Philly would regret it since supposedly this draft isn't all that great.

The Brooklyn pick was part of a larger package for Okafor.  The pick straight-up would make no sense for Philly.  If you don't understand why it would make no sense for Philly, go back to the thread where some 80+% of fans here voted that they wouldn't trade Marcus Smart (a lesser prospect than Okafor) for the Suns unprotected pick (a better pick than Brooklyn's).

I'd say there's also a pretty substantial %chance that these rumors are inaccurate and Ainge never offered unprotected '16 for Wonslow and that he never made any offer for Okafor. Much of this is rampant speculation.

[LarBrd33]

Okafor was obviously Danny's target.  Is what it is.  We had every reason to try trading for him.  He was obviously available. Can't blame philly for backing out.

This doesn't fit with the conversations with Danny.

1) Comment about the trade being for a star - Okafor isn't a star.  He's a prospect with a very bright future, but definitely not a star.

2) The comment about the trade being a big risk for both teams - doesn't really make much sense to me if it's Okafor.  The guy isn't really injury prone, he's on a cheapish rookie contract, he's already putting up some numbers.  Every trade involves some risk, but I wouldn't say that this is a major risk for either team.

3) The comment about the team deciding to 'stick it out this year and see how they go, then revisit it later'.  That makes zero sense if it's the Sixers.  They are the worst team in the entire NBA.  They have no hope of making a run this year and even sniffing the playoffs.  It just doesn't fit.  You could argue they want to wait to see how things go with Embiid's health by the time the offseason comes...or wait to see where the Brooklyn pick lands.  But even then it doesn't really fit what was said, which seems to suggest that they wanted to wait and see how the team can do.  We all know how the Sixers are going to finish the season, so there is zero suspense there.   

For that reason, Okafor just doesn't seem to make nay logical sense to me, based on the conversations reported. Not unless you specifically twist it around.

#1 - Contrary to how it was reported, Danny never actually called the target a star.  He said the team was very close to adding a high-quality player.  Despite the naysayers, Okafor is 20 years old and putting up outstanding stats for a rookie.  His touch around the rim is phenomenal.  He's averaging  17.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 1.4 blocks with 50% shooting in 30mpg.  He's basically a lock for him to be a 20 and 10 player.  His floor is Brook Lopez/Al Jefferson.  He also fills an obvious need for this team - SIZE.   He's a high quality player and someone who has tangible superstar potential... that's an obvious target for Boston.  If they can buy low on a guy with superstar potential, it's better than keeping a pick that is unlikely to end up in the top 2 (very unlikely to be a player of the caliber of Okafor).

#2 - Obvious risk for Philly.  Trading away Okafor a pick that might end up being outside the top 5?... HUGE risk.  Borderline insane risk.  They can get much more for him from a different team this summer.  Selling low on a prospect like Okafor is foolish.  It shouldn't be surprise that Philly backed out.     As for Boston, I'd say that giving up the brooklyn 1st for Okafor is a complete no-brainer.  Ainge isn't going to say that, though.   If he has any hope of landing Okafor later, he can't admit that our position in the trade was a "no brainer".   He has to say "hey we are taking a risk on a guy with attitude problems and a game that doesn't fit the modern NBA.  He could destroy our chemistry!  We're 3rd in the East!  That pick is probably going to be Ben Simmons... the next phenom!  HUGE risk for Boston.   HUUUGE!!!"...  ALso, we don't know what else Boston was giving up in the deal.  If it involved giving up the Brooklyn pick + Smart or Bradley, that's a considerable gamble by Boston. 

#3 - It AbSOLUTELY fits.  Seriously?  It's foolish for Philly to trade Okafor right now.  They would have been stupid to do that.  If they wait until the summer they can see if Embiid is healthy,they can see where various teams land in the lotto, they can see who becomes available, etc.  Also, despite the assertions from the casuals here, the reality is that barring injury there's no way no way Okafor or Noel's trade value goes any lower than it is right now.  Okafor put up 33 points last night.  Noel is continuing to improve.  Those two are still finding their way in this league.  It's clear they can't coexist, but teams around the league aren't braindead... they know what kind of potential both of those guys have.  There will still be tons of offers this summer.  You never know who will make an offer. Perhaps Portland will offer up CJ McCollum for their least favorite big.   Perhaps the Bucks will offer up Jabari Parker.  Maybe the Magic will offer up a package built around Aaron Gordon and Mario Hezonja.  Maybe the Lakers will decide to give up D'Angelo Russell.    Trading Okafor for that Brooklyn pick would have been dumb.  Bottom line.  Trading Okafor for that Brooklyn pick + Smart or Bradley?... intriguing, but still probably better to wait until the Summer.

I also want to point out some additional things here.   

Ainge isn't an idiot.  Ainge knows what Okafor can bring to the table.  He knows that kid has incredible potential.   Maybe he has defensive limitations, but most 20 year old rookies do.  His talent is undeniable.   Here's some random thoughts to take into consideration when talking about Okafor to Boston.

- His limitations now are the same limitations we were aware of prior to him being drafted.  He's the player as advertised.  Uncanny offensive ability.  Low post beast.  Real size.  Defensive struggles.   That's why he went 3rd instead of 1st. 

- His rookie season is supremely underrated.   That kid can ball.  It's being overshadowed by Karl Towns.   Porzingus gets a lot of deserved press as well, but that's partially a result of him playing on the Knicks... he's a tiny bit overrated.

- There were reported prior to the draft that the Celtics were willing to offer Philly a godfather offer if Okafor fell to them.  Okafor has been a target for a while.  Conflicting reports on what we actually offered (there was a rumored offer of Smart and #16 for #3 and Noel that was later called a joke rumor by Bill Simmons).

Okafor's attitude: 

I want to comment on this.  Let's think about Okafor's perspective here.

#1 - He's been a winner at every level.  He won a NCAA TItle as a Freshman.  If Losing isn't taking a toll on him, that's not the kind of player we should want.

#2 - Okafor knows Philly didn't want him.  Philly was desperate to get D'Angelo Russell.  Okafor was supposed to end up on the Lakers, but Los Angeles got cute.  Some suggest the Lakers were trying to force Philly into paying extra for Russell.   Nonetheless, Okafor ends up in probably the worst possible situation.  The team has zero intention of winning this year.  The team already has a cornerstone quality big in Noel and a player frequently referred to as the franchise player (Embiid) at his position.  It had to be clear to him from day 1 that he was there, because he was the best player available... not because Philly intends to build around him. 

#3 - Building on above, Okafor knows his role in Philly is "asset".  From day 1, it has to be clear to him that it's unlikely they keep him.  How can he get emotionally invested when he knows he's a sitting duck?  If Healthy, that's Embiid's team.  Noel is the guy who fits their system now.  Okafor is a trade chip.   He's a 20 year old trying to adjust to this league and he's playing on a team that very likely isn't keeping him... while suffering through loss after loss after loss.  That's got to suck.

#4 - I want to remind everyone that Larry 'freakin Bird deformed his finger in bar fight in the middle of the playoffs.  His shooting percentage suffered and it likely cost us a championship that year.  Do you really think Ainge is above taking a risk on a wildly talent 20 year old kid who drunkenly shoved someone on camera and got caught speeding?   

I fully believe the report that Okafor was the target.  Makes complete sense.   My only hope is that the Brooklyn pick stays valuable enough that we are in position to snag one of those Philly bigs this Summer.   I'd be happy with any one of them.  They clearly have to trade 1 (or 2) and I can't see them waiting much longer. 

The offer was for Okafor.   Come to terms with it.

There's literally nothing to suggest it was Okafur other than Bulpett's tweet,  and Ainge didn't say anything about it not being a star. 
 All he said was that it wasn't one of the rumored guys like Love, Howard or Horford.

Given that the Bulls tried to trade Gasol to the Kings, it's just as easy to speculate that it was for Jimmy Butler who is possibly screaming for a way out of Chicago's mediocrity mill right now.

Go to the RealGM Bulls board and look at the thread where at least half of their reg posters are saying it could definitely have been for Jimmy B.
Perfect time for Bulls to cash in on Butler with some Brooklyn  picks, the Kings lottery pick and their own lottery pick while they develop Mcdermott and Portis.

If Bulpett got the info from the Celtics,  there's a very strong argument to say that they purposely leaked Okafur to throw people off and protect a potential trade in the offseason.

Could it have been Butler?  Sure.  Was it Butler?  No.  It was Okafor.

Hey guys. It was Okafor. Let's wait until the summer. Danny will surely get him in the summer. LarBrd is always right. He's never wrong. I can't wait for Okafor to be a Celtic in July! Oh goody, thank goodness we have such wonderful insiders and analysts like LarBrd here, who know exactly what was going on in Danny's office. What a great guy.

If the package was built around the Brooklyn pick, I'd say it's considerably less likely to get Okafor for that pick this Summer.   It had value because of the chance of ending up top 2.  If it ends up top 2, we'll probably keep it.  If it doesn't end up top 2, I don't know why Philly would want it... they could probably get a better offer for Okafor from another team.

[LarBrd33]

These teams really are saving Danny from himself and I'm nothing but grateful for it.  All those picks for Winslow on draft night and the Brooklyn pick for Okafor would have been a disaster if the Brooklyn pick actually won the lottery.

Yeah in the less than 10% chance the pick ended up Ben Simmons, there's a decent chance the Celtics would regret it.  That's assuming Ben Simmons isn't a massive disappointment on the NBA level.  That's also assuming Okafor doesn't make a giant leap and surpass every player in the 2016 draft. 

In the greater than 90% chance the pick didn't end up Ben Simmons, there's a very likely chance Philly would regret it since supposedly this draft isn't all that great.

The Brooklyn pick was part of a larger package for Okafor.  The pick straight-up would make no sense for Philly.  If you don't understand why it would make no sense for Philly, go back to the thread where some 80+% of fans here voted that they wouldn't trade Marcus Smart (a lesser prospect than Okafor) for the Suns unprotected pick (a better pick than Brooklyn's).

I'd say there's also a pretty substantial %chance that these rumors are inaccurate and Ainge never offered unprotected '16 for Wonslow and that he never made any offer for Okafor. Much of this is rampant speculation.

Yeah every time I hear Bill Simmons do a podcast, the price we offered for Winslow becomes greater.  Recently he claimed it was 4 1st rounders including the 2016 Brooklyn 1st.

[alldaboston]

These teams really are saving Danny from himself and I'm nothing but grateful for it.  All those picks for Winslow on draft night and the Brooklyn pick for Okafor would have been a disaster if the Brooklyn pick actually won the lottery.

Yeah in the less than 10% chance the pick ended up Ben Simmons, there's a decent chance the Celtics would regret it.  That's assuming Ben Simmons isn't a massive disappointment on the NBA level.  That's also assuming Okafor doesn't make a giant leap and surpass every player in the 2016 draft. 

In the greater than 90% chance the pick didn't end up Ben Simmons, there's a very likely chance Philly would regret it since supposedly this draft isn't all that great.

The Brooklyn pick was part of a larger package for Okafor.  The pick straight-up would make no sense for Philly.  If you don't understand why it would make no sense for Philly, go back to the thread where some 80+% of fans here voted that they wouldn't trade Marcus Smart (a lesser prospect than Okafor) for the Suns unprotected pick (a better pick than Brooklyn's).

I'd say there's also a pretty substantial %chance that these rumors are inaccurate and Ainge never offered unprotected '16 for Wonslow and that he never made any offer for Okafor. Much of this is rampant speculation.

Steve Kyler of basketball insiders has said numerous times it was not a nets pick. It was the three picks we had plus a future Celtics pick projected to be in the 20s

[sawick48]

These teams really are saving Danny from himself and I'm nothing but grateful for it.  All those picks for Winslow on draft night and the Brooklyn pick for Okafor would have been a disaster if the Brooklyn pick actually won the lottery.

Yeah in the less than 10% chance the pick ended up Ben Simmons, there's a decent chance the Celtics would regret it.  That's assuming Ben Simmons isn't a massive disappointment on the NBA level.  That's also assuming Okafor doesn't make a giant leap and surpass every player in the 2016 draft. 

In the greater than 90% chance the pick didn't end up Ben Simmons, there's a very likely chance Philly would regret it since supposedly this draft isn't all that great.

The Brooklyn pick was part of a larger package for Okafor.  The pick straight-up would make no sense for Philly.  If you don't understand why it would make no sense for Philly, go back to the thread where some 80+% of fans here voted that they wouldn't trade Marcus Smart (a lesser prospect than Okafor) for the Suns unprotected pick (a better pick than Brooklyn's).

I couldnt possibly care less about what makes sense for Philly and what they would and wouldn't do, at least as far as what I posted.  I'm saying for us, I'm grateful we didn't end up with Okafor if he was the target.  Talk about your lottery percentages all you want, but we still have a shot at landing a top 2 pick for a guy that IMO has a higher ceiling than Okafor's anyway. 

And you conveniently overlooked the more important point anyway.  It's isn't hard to be a 19 year old rookie in the nba, and NOT get in trouble.  dozens of guys manage to do it every year.  And yet Jalil is not one of them.  You all can stick to your hopes that we'll trade for him and he can become a 2 way player even though he's never shown at any level yet he's capable of doing that.  I'm going to hope we stay as far away from the kid as possible.  Let him burn with the rest of the dumpster fire going on in Philadelphia.

Currently has a net rating (Offensive rating - defensive rating [points scored - allowed by his team when on the court per 100 possessions]) of -10 (99 - 109)

The 6ers are something like 6 points per 100 possessions better offensively without him on the court

and his VORP is currently -0.8

Even Alex Len never had a VORP under -0.4

Wasn't impressed by him coming out of hs, wasn't impressed by him going into the draft last year, and not impressed with him now.  One way player that seems like a dope off the court to boot.  I get he's young and young people do dumb things, and I get he's a rookie and rookies get better.  But there's plenty of young players that don't do dumb things and bust their butts in practice every day, and there's plenty of one way rookies that never develop that 2nd way effectively.  If you want to talk about 10% and 90% chances, I'll take my chances that Okafor isn't a guy that'll break those molds.  Pass.

[chambers]

Okafor was obviously Danny's target.  Is what it is.  We had every reason to try trading for him.  He was obviously available. Can't blame philly for backing out.

This doesn't fit with the conversations with Danny.

1) Comment about the trade being for a star - Okafor isn't a star.  He's a prospect with a very bright future, but definitely not a star.

2) The comment about the trade being a big risk for both teams - doesn't really make much sense to me if it's Okafor.  The guy isn't really injury prone, he's on a cheapish rookie contract, he's already putting up some numbers.  Every trade involves some risk, but I wouldn't say that this is a major risk for either team.

3) The comment about the team deciding to 'stick it out this year and see how they go, then revisit it later'.  That makes zero sense if it's the Sixers.  They are the worst team in the entire NBA.  They have no hope of making a run this year and even sniffing the playoffs.  It just doesn't fit.  You could argue they want to wait to see how things go with Embiid's health by the time the offseason comes...or wait to see where the Brooklyn pick lands.  But even then it doesn't really fit what was said, which seems to suggest that they wanted to wait and see how the team can do.  We all know how the Sixers are going to finish the season, so there is zero suspense there.   

For that reason, Okafor just doesn't seem to make nay logical sense to me, based on the conversations reported. Not unless you specifically twist it around.

#1 - Contrary to how it was reported, Danny never actually called the target a star.  He said the team was very close to adding a high-quality player.  Despite the naysayers, Okafor is 20 years old and putting up outstanding stats for a rookie.  His touch around the rim is phenomenal.  He's averaging  17.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 1.4 blocks with 50% shooting in 30mpg.  He's basically a lock for him to be a 20 and 10 player.  His floor is Brook Lopez/Al Jefferson.  He also fills an obvious need for this team - SIZE.   He's a high quality player and someone who has tangible superstar potential... that's an obvious target for Boston.  If they can buy low on a guy with superstar potential, it's better than keeping a pick that is unlikely to end up in the top 2 (very unlikely to be a player of the caliber of Okafor).

#2 - Obvious risk for Philly.  Trading away Okafor a pick that might end up being outside the top 5?... HUGE risk.  Borderline insane risk.  They can get much more for him from a different team this summer.  Selling low on a prospect like Okafor is foolish.  It shouldn't be surprise that Philly backed out.     As for Boston, I'd say that giving up the brooklyn 1st for Okafor is a complete no-brainer.  Ainge isn't going to say that, though.   If he has any hope of landing Okafor later, he can't admit that our position in the trade was a "no brainer".   He has to say "hey we are taking a risk on a guy with attitude problems and a game that doesn't fit the modern NBA.  He could destroy our chemistry!  We're 3rd in the East!  That pick is probably going to be Ben Simmons... the next phenom!  HUGE risk for Boston.   HUUUGE!!!"...  ALso, we don't know what else Boston was giving up in the deal.  If it involved giving up the Brooklyn pick + Smart or Bradley, that's a considerable gamble by Boston. 

#3 - It AbSOLUTELY fits.  Seriously?  It's foolish for Philly to trade Okafor right now.  They would have been stupid to do that.  If they wait until the summer they can see if Embiid is healthy,they can see where various teams land in the lotto, they can see who becomes available, etc.  Also, despite the assertions from the casuals here, the reality is that barring injury there's no way no way Okafor or Noel's trade value goes any lower than it is right now.  Okafor put up 33 points last night.  Noel is continuing to improve.  Those two are still finding their way in this league.  It's clear they can't coexist, but teams around the league aren't braindead... they know what kind of potential both of those guys have.  There will still be tons of offers this summer.  You never know who will make an offer. Perhaps Portland will offer up CJ McCollum for their least favorite big.   Perhaps the Bucks will offer up Jabari Parker.  Maybe the Magic will offer up a package built around Aaron Gordon and Mario Hezonja.  Maybe the Lakers will decide to give up D'Angelo Russell.    Trading Okafor for that Brooklyn pick would have been dumb.  Bottom line.  Trading Okafor for that Brooklyn pick + Smart or Bradley?... intriguing, but still probably better to wait until the Summer.

I also want to point out some additional things here.   

Ainge isn't an idiot.  Ainge knows what Okafor can bring to the table.  He knows that kid has incredible potential.   Maybe he has defensive limitations, but most 20 year old rookies do.  His talent is undeniable.   Here's some random thoughts to take into consideration when talking about Okafor to Boston.

- His limitations now are the same limitations we were aware of prior to him being drafted.  He's the player as advertised.  Uncanny offensive ability.  Low post beast.  Real size.  Defensive struggles.   That's why he went 3rd instead of 1st. 

- His rookie season is supremely underrated.   That kid can ball.  It's being overshadowed by Karl Towns.   Porzingus gets a lot of deserved press as well, but that's partially a result of him playing on the Knicks... he's a tiny bit overrated.

- There were reported prior to the draft that the Celtics were willing to offer Philly a godfather offer if Okafor fell to them.  Okafor has been a target for a while.  Conflicting reports on what we actually offered (there was a rumored offer of Smart and #16 for #3 and Noel that was later called a joke rumor by Bill Simmons).

Okafor's attitude: 

I want to comment on this.  Let's think about Okafor's perspective here.

#1 - He's been a winner at every level.  He won a NCAA TItle as a Freshman.  If Losing isn't taking a toll on him, that's not the kind of player we should want.

#2 - Okafor knows Philly didn't want him.  Philly was desperate to get D'Angelo Russell.  Okafor was supposed to end up on the Lakers, but Los Angeles got cute.  Some suggest the Lakers were trying to force Philly into paying extra for Russell.   Nonetheless, Okafor ends up in probably the worst possible situation.  The team has zero intention of winning this year.  The team already has a cornerstone quality big in Noel and a player frequently referred to as the franchise player (Embiid) at his position.  It had to be clear to him from day 1 that he was there, because he was the best player available... not because Philly intends to build around him. 

#3 - Building on above, Okafor knows his role in Philly is "asset".  From day 1, it has to be clear to him that it's unlikely they keep him.  How can he get emotionally invested when he knows he's a sitting duck?  If Healthy, that's Embiid's team.  Noel is the guy who fits their system now.  Okafor is a trade chip.   He's a 20 year old trying to adjust to this league and he's playing on a team that very likely isn't keeping him... while suffering through loss after loss after loss.  That's got to suck.

#4 - I want to remind everyone that Larry 'freakin Bird deformed his finger in bar fight in the middle of the playoffs.  His shooting percentage suffered and it likely cost us a championship that year.  Do you really think Ainge is above taking a risk on a wildly talent 20 year old kid who drunkenly shoved someone on camera and got caught speeding?   

I fully believe the report that Okafor was the target.  Makes complete sense.   My only hope is that the Brooklyn pick stays valuable enough that we are in position to snag one of those Philly bigs this Summer.   I'd be happy with any one of them.  They clearly have to trade 1 (or 2) and I can't see them waiting much longer. 

The offer was for Okafor.   Come to terms with it.

There's literally nothing to suggest it was Okafur other than Bulpett's tweet,  and Ainge didn't say anything about it not being a star. 
 All he said was that it wasn't one of the rumored guys like Love, Howard or Horford.

Given that the Bulls tried to trade Gasol to the Kings, it's just as easy to speculate that it was for Jimmy Butler who is possibly screaming for a way out of Chicago's mediocrity mill right now.

Go to the RealGM Bulls board and look at the thread where at least half of their reg posters are saying it could definitely have been for Jimmy B.
Perfect time for Bulls to cash in on Butler with some Brooklyn  picks, the Kings lottery pick and their own lottery pick while they develop Mcdermott and Portis.

If Bulpett got the info from the Celtics,  there's a very strong argument to say that they purposely leaked Okafur to throw people off and protect a potential trade in the offseason.

Could it have been Butler?  Sure.  Was it Butler?  No.  It was Okafor.

Could it have been Okafur? Sure. Was it Okafur? We will never know.
Could it have been Butler? Sure. Was it Butler? We will never know.

The fact is that we have no idea who it was.
You keep saying 'Danny never said it was a star'. He also never said it wasn't a star.

Show me where he says it wasn't a star...
Again, there is just as much chance that Bulpett was told that it was Okafur to throw everyone off- which would be a very 'Danny Ainge' kinda move.
The 70 news outlet that you're claiming also reported it are also using Bulpett as their source. lol.

What's also interesting is that Bulpett- a Celtics connected reporter- was the one that reported this first. That means he got the information from the Celtics. It didn't come from a Philly source. So the Celtics really leaked the actual player they were going to trade for to Steve Bulpett- even when they say the framework for a deal is still there for summer.

My other query is why your word on the matter is the be all and end all of the discussion?

You've convinced yourself it was Okafur, you can keep telling yourself it was, but the reality is we have no idea and probably won't have any idea who it really was.

Oh wait, I forgot LarBrd33 has solved the puzzle and now we know for certain it was Okie Dokie fur.

Or Ainge's plan has worked perfectly and he's got the value of that Brooklyn pick up to that of a top 3 pick from last year from pure speculation about it  being Okafur.

Danny Ainge is literally setting the market for the Value of that pick if we are to believe these Okafur rumors.

Hell I'd LOVE to get Okafur for that Brooklyn pick, but there's literally nothing other than a rumor from Bulpett that indicates he was the target.

[LarBrd33]

These teams really are saving Danny from himself and I'm nothing but grateful for it.  All those picks for Winslow on draft night and the Brooklyn pick for Okafor would have been a disaster if the Brooklyn pick actually won the lottery.

Yeah in the less than 10% chance the pick ended up Ben Simmons, there's a decent chance the Celtics would regret it.  That's assuming Ben Simmons isn't a massive disappointment on the NBA level.  That's also assuming Okafor doesn't make a giant leap and surpass every player in the 2016 draft. 

In the greater than 90% chance the pick didn't end up Ben Simmons, there's a very likely chance Philly would regret it since supposedly this draft isn't all that great.

The Brooklyn pick was part of a larger package for Okafor.  The pick straight-up would make no sense for Philly.  If you don't understand why it would make no sense for Philly, go back to the thread where some 80+% of fans here voted that they wouldn't trade Marcus Smart (a lesser prospect than Okafor) for the Suns unprotected pick (a better pick than Brooklyn's).

I couldnt possibly care less about what makes sense for Philly and what they would and wouldn't do, at least as far as what I posted.  I'm saying for us, I'm grateful we didn't end up with Okafor if he was the target.  Talk about your lottery percentages all you want, but we still have a shot at landing a top 2 pick for a guy that IMO has a higher ceiling than Okafor's anyway. 

And you conveniently overlooked the more important point anyway.  It's isn't hard to be a 19 year old rookie in the nba, and NOT get in trouble.  dozens of guys manage to do it every year.  And yet Jalil is not one of them.  You all can stick to your hopes that we'll trade for him and he can become a 2 way player even though he's never shown at any level yet he's capable of doing that.  I'm going to hope we stay as far away from the kid as possible.  Let him burn with the rest of the dumpster fire going on in Philadelphia.

Currently has a net rating (Offensive rating - defensive rating [points scored - allowed by his team when on the court per 100 possessions]) of -10 (99 - 109)

The 6ers are something like 6 points per 100 possessions better offensively without him on the court

and his VORP is currently -0.8

Even Alex Len never had a VORP under -0.4

Wasn't impressed by him coming out of hs, wasn't impressed by him going into the draft last year, and not impressed with him now.  One way player that seems like a dope off the court to boot.  I get he's young and young people do dumb things, and I get he's a rookie and rookies get better.  But there's plenty of young players that don't do dumb things and bust their butts in practice every day, and there's plenty of one way rookies that never develop that 2nd way effectively.  If you want to talk about 10% and 90% chances, I'll take my chances that Okafor isn't a guy that'll break those molds.  Pass.

Most of those stats are irrelevant.  Philly isn't a real basketball team this year... take most of the advanced stats with a grain of salt.   What's clear is that Okafor has talent and size.

Plenty of guys older and more established than Okafor get into trouble.  As I mentioned, Bird broke his finger in a bar fight in the middle of the playoffs.  Barkley threw a guy through a bar window.   Okafor shoved some guy on camera... big deal.   He was caught speeding in October... I remember Gary Payton going in reverse on the freeway.  Big deal.  He's a 20 year old with the kind of immaturity you'd expect from a 20 year old.  He's got a bunch of money, very likely hates his temporary stay on Philly, and probably is anxious to take his talents to a real basketball team.  Also, it's not like he fractured his hand physically assaulting a member of his team's equipment staff or something. 

It's very likely Okafor ends up better than what that Brooklyn pick ends up being.  It's a loss for Boston that we didn't get a deal done.  But there's still a tiny chance we defy the odds, win the lotto, and it all works out.  Here's hopin.

[LGC88]

TP
And a young talented player like Okafor can only get better as a player and as a person within the celtics organization. Look how it turned out with all the "left over" players we got in the past (turner, crawford being our last 2).

[Monkhouse]

Okafor is a monster.

This guy has ginormous hands, and his offense is superb. His post moves? Tough to guard, and fun to watch him work in the paint, and remember... 17/7 aren't really that bad... 76ers are dysfunctional, and while Brett Brown is still an underrated and excellent coach; their roster is horrible. Their second best player may possibly be Ish Smith.

As the number one scoring option, Okafor is certainly going to get far more double teams on offense.

Yes his defense is horrible, but hopefully Stevens can help him become better, and maybe our defense without a true rim protector, will still be a top 10 in defense even with Okafor.

I was a huge fan of Jabari Parker, and I still am. I still would've rather wanted Parker, who I feel can someone bounce back and really show his true potential.

Both players were spectacular, and players I watched on the daily on Ballislife.

And who I definitely knew we weren't going to get with our pick, so if Ainge waits and sees where the pick falls, I think will definitely be a huge factor.

Preferably, I would rather go after another player than Okafor with the Nets pick if Ainge does indeed pull off a blockbuster. Okafor would take a lot of time to at least be used to our system, being used to bad teammates, and habits which usually take some methodical coaching to remedy.

[chambers]

The one thing that hasn't been discussed much is the potential that there was a 3 team trade for Okafur and the Brooklyn pick.

My hunch on this is because in the interview the day after, Ainge said 'ultimately both teams weren't ready to pull the trigger', and we don't know if he means two other teams or if the Celtics were one of those teams.

eg:
Celtics get: Jimmy Butler

76ers get: Brooklyn pick 16, Jordan Mickey

Bulls get:
Okafur, Mavs pick 16', Terry Rozier (who they love), Lee (salary filler).
If they'd done this, they probably would have pulled the trigger on a Gasol trade to Sacto, leaving the Bulls with something like:

Okafur
Portis
McDermott
Rozier
Rose
Mavs 16'
Sacto 16' lottery
Bulls 16' Lottery
Rose

Something similar would work with the Clippers or Sacramento but I highly doubt either of those teams are trading Cousins or Griffin.

[Celtics18]

What a lot of discussion about something that didn't happen.  NBA GMs talk about deals all the time.  When they don't happen, they don't happen.

Nothing to see, as far as I'm concerned.