Author Topic: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)  (Read 41237 times)

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Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #180 on: February 22, 2016, 10:49:10 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Okafor was obviously Danny's target.  Is what it is.  We had every reason to try trading for him.  He was obviously available. Can't blame philly for backing out.

This doesn't fit with the conversations with Danny.

1) Comment about the trade being for a star - Okafor isn't a star.  He's a prospect with a very bright future, but definitely not a star.

2) The comment about the trade being a big risk for both teams - doesn't really make much sense to me if it's Okafor.  The guy isn't really injury prone, he's on a cheapish rookie contract, he's already putting up some numbers.  Every trade involves some risk, but I wouldn't say that this is a major risk for either team.

3) The comment about the team deciding to 'stick it out this year and see how they go, then revisit it later'.  That makes zero sense if it's the Sixers.  They are the worst team in the entire NBA.  They have no hope of making a run this year and even sniffing the playoffs.  It just doesn't fit.  You could argue they want to wait to see how things go with Embiid's health by the time the offseason comes...or wait to see where the Brooklyn pick lands.  But even then it doesn't really fit what was said, which seems to suggest that they wanted to wait and see how the team can do.  We all know how the Sixers are going to finish the season, so there is zero suspense there.   

For that reason, Okafor just doesn't seem to make nay logical sense to me, based on the conversations reported. Not unless you specifically twist it around.

Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #181 on: February 22, 2016, 11:25:01 PM »

Offline winstonkirk

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crimson_stallion, I suspect you're right. TP for a great post. Unfortunately I don't know how to quote on here.

I had been thinking it was Cousins due to the P. Gasol rumors. Why would the Kings get Gasol when they already have three centers on the roster?

How did the Okafor rumors start? (Edit: Bulpett the day after the interview.) If the target was Cousins, I'd guess that the Okafor rumors were put out by Danny to keep the price low in the off season.

1. Trade falls through at the deadline. Kings back out on acquiring Gasol and sending Cousins to the Celtics.

2. Danny makes a point of saying a trade fell through for a major upgrade, but that it can be revisited in the off season. This starts speculation on who it was.

3. Danny "leaks" that the target was Okafor. Okafor is a young center who could be on the block, and is similar enough to Cousins that the threat is credible. This reduces the risk of the Kings raising their price between now and the off season.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 11:45:01 PM by winstonkirk »

Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #182 on: February 22, 2016, 11:27:17 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Maybe Atlanta was seriously considering a complete blow-it-up trade and was negotiating a deal to trade legitimate star Paul Millsap to Boston if they found the right deals for Teague and Horford, despite claims that they wanted to re-tool around Millsap.  They will revisit the idea of doing a deal if the rest of this season and/or the off-season go poorly for the Hawks.

If Horford signs elsewhere, does anyone doubt that Millsap is someone who Ainge would try to trade for?
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Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #183 on: February 22, 2016, 11:30:20 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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Maybe Atlanta was seriously considering a complete blow-it-up trade and was negotiating a deal to trade legitimate star Paul Millsap to Boston if they found the right deals for Teague and Horford, despite claims that they wanted to re-tool around Millsap.  They will revisit the idea of doing a deal if the rest of this season and/or the off-season go poorly for the Hawks.

If Horford signs elsewhere, does anyone doubt that Millsap is someone who Ainge would try to trade for?

I'd love millsap here
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

you vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about

Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #184 on: February 22, 2016, 11:36:08 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Maybe Atlanta was seriously considering a complete blow-it-up trade and was negotiating a deal to trade legitimate star Paul Millsap to Boston if they found the right deals for Teague and Horford, despite claims that they wanted to re-tool around Millsap.  They will revisit the idea of doing a deal if the rest of this season and/or the off-season go poorly for the Hawks.

If Horford signs elsewhere, does anyone doubt that Millsap is someone who Ainge would try to trade for?

Doesn't fit because Millsap isn't really a star, and he is 31 years old - Danny specifically stated that he 'probably' would not trade the Brooklyn pick for somebody over 30 years old, and he also made a comment suggesting that he values some of his current players more than the Brooklyn pick.

That seems to confirm the fact that Danny would not consider trading the Brooklyn pick or any of his key players for a guy over 30 unless it's a REALLY transcendent player (e.g. Lebron) which Millsap is not. 

That said, I would really like to see Millsap here.  But I suspect his asking price would be even higher than Horford's, which in itself was too high for Danny reportedly (and Horford is younger too).

I just hope and pray that it isn't Derek Rose, because sadly that WOULD meet pretty much all of the criteria, and I could see Danny taking a gamble on a former MVP like Rose.  I just don't see Rose (in his current form) as an upgrade over IT4, so I'm hoping Danny sees things the same way.


Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #185 on: February 23, 2016, 12:15:33 AM »

Offline LooseCannon

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Maybe Atlanta was seriously considering a complete blow-it-up trade and was negotiating a deal to trade legitimate star Paul Millsap to Boston if they found the right deals for Teague and Horford, despite claims that they wanted to re-tool around Millsap.  They will revisit the idea of doing a deal if the rest of this season and/or the off-season go poorly for the Hawks.

If Horford signs elsewhere, does anyone doubt that Millsap is someone who Ainge would try to trade for?

Doesn't fit because Millsap isn't really a star, and he is 31 years old - Danny specifically stated that he 'probably' would not trade the Brooklyn pick for somebody over 30 years old, and he also made a comment suggesting that he values some of his current players more than the Brooklyn pick.

That seems to confirm the fact that Danny would not consider trading the Brooklyn pick or any of his key players for a guy over 30 unless it's a REALLY transcendent player (e.g. Lebron) which Millsap is not. 

That said, I would really like to see Millsap here.  But I suspect his asking price would be even higher than Horford's, which in itself was too high for Danny reportedly (and Horford is younger too).

I just hope and pray that it isn't Derek Rose, because sadly that WOULD meet pretty much all of the criteria, and I could see Danny taking a gamble on a former MVP like Rose.  I just don't see Rose (in his current form) as an upgrade over IT4, so I'm hoping Danny sees things the same way.

If Paul Millsap isn't a star, then Jimmy Butler isn't a star unless your criteria includes that they must have a 20ppg season.

It's also a belief of this forum that Ainge lies, so I wouldn't assume that Ainge is being 100% truthful about what he is willing to give up.  Even if there are deals where he would trade that pick, he wants to create the image that he doesn't want to.

I'm envisioning a scenario where they talked about Millsap/Horford for Lee/Sullinger/Zeller and the 2016 Nets pick, with discussion about how much more the Celtics needed to give up.
"The worst thing that ever happened in sports was sports radio, and the internet is sports radio on steroids with lower IQs.” -- Brian Burke, former Toronto Maple Leafs senior adviser, at the 2013 MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference

Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #186 on: February 23, 2016, 12:31:26 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Maybe Atlanta was seriously considering a complete blow-it-up trade and was negotiating a deal to trade legitimate star Paul Millsap to Boston if they found the right deals for Teague and Horford, despite claims that they wanted to re-tool around Millsap.  They will revisit the idea of doing a deal if the rest of this season and/or the off-season go poorly for the Hawks.

If Horford signs elsewhere, does anyone doubt that Millsap is someone who Ainge would try to trade for?

Doesn't fit because Millsap isn't really a star, and he is 31 years old - Danny specifically stated that he 'probably' would not trade the Brooklyn pick for somebody over 30 years old, and he also made a comment suggesting that he values some of his current players more than the Brooklyn pick.

That seems to confirm the fact that Danny would not consider trading the Brooklyn pick or any of his key players for a guy over 30 unless it's a REALLY transcendent player (e.g. Lebron) which Millsap is not. 

That said, I would really like to see Millsap here.  But I suspect his asking price would be even higher than Horford's, which in itself was too high for Danny reportedly (and Horford is younger too).

I just hope and pray that it isn't Derek Rose, because sadly that WOULD meet pretty much all of the criteria, and I could see Danny taking a gamble on a former MVP like Rose.  I just don't see Rose (in his current form) as an upgrade over IT4, so I'm hoping Danny sees things the same way.

If Paul Millsap isn't a star, then Jimmy Butler isn't a star unless your criteria includes that they must have a 20ppg season.

It's also a belief of this forum that Ainge lies, so I wouldn't assume that Ainge is being 100% truthful about what he is willing to give up.  Even if there are deals where he would trade that pick, he wants to create the image that he doesn't want to.

I'm envisioning a scenario where they talked about Millsap/Horford for Lee/Sullinger/Zeller and the 2016 Nets pick, with discussion about how much more the Celtics needed to give up.

I wouldn't say Danny lies...I just think he doesn't always tell the whole truth.

But he pretty explicitly stated that he wouldn't give up the Brooklyn pick for an older (> 30 year old) guy and to be completely honest I believe him. 

Ainge seems to clearly have a long term vision in mind for this team, and it just doesn't really make a lot of sense for him to trade core guys on the team for somebody who has at most 2-3 years of prime (or near prime) production left in him. 

If Ainge could get somebody like Millsap in free agency  then I think he'd do it, but if he had to give up core pieces or high lottery picks then I just can't see him doing that.  That would basically be sacrificing the future for the now, which he's pretty explicitly stated that he's not willing to do unless it puts us in a position to compete for a title - and I seriously doubt that adding Millsap to our current team (especially if we are also giving up core pieces in the process) does that.

As for star power, you could legitimately argue that Butler is the best SG in the game right now, depending on how you feel about Harden (and how much you value two-way guys vs outright scorers).  I don't think you could argue that Millsap is the best PF in the NBA right now.  It's tricky to even place him in the top 5 when you have Anthony Davis, Blake Griffin, Draymond Green, LaMarcus Aldridge, Serge Ibaka, Derrick Favors, Kevin Love and Dirk Nowitzki in the argument. 

Millsap is much like Horford in that he's a really good player, but he's not transcendent.  Apparently Ainge wasn't willing to give up the Brooklyn pick for Kevin Love, so I wouldn't think he'd give it up for Millsap either.  I wouldn't consider Millsap to be a higher-tier player than Love (although I personally much prefer Millsap's game). 

Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #187 on: February 23, 2016, 12:46:27 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Okafor was obviously Danny's target.  Is what it is.  We had every reason to try trading for him.  He was obviously available. Can't blame philly for backing out.

This doesn't fit with the conversations with Danny.

1) Comment about the trade being for a star - Okafor isn't a star.  He's a prospect with a very bright future, but definitely not a star.

2) The comment about the trade being a big risk for both teams - doesn't really make much sense to me if it's Okafor.  The guy isn't really injury prone, he's on a cheapish rookie contract, he's already putting up some numbers.  Every trade involves some risk, but I wouldn't say that this is a major risk for either team.

3) The comment about the team deciding to 'stick it out this year and see how they go, then revisit it later'.  That makes zero sense if it's the Sixers.  They are the worst team in the entire NBA.  They have no hope of making a run this year and even sniffing the playoffs.  It just doesn't fit.  You could argue they want to wait to see how things go with Embiid's health by the time the offseason comes...or wait to see where the Brooklyn pick lands.  But even then it doesn't really fit what was said, which seems to suggest that they wanted to wait and see how the team can do.  We all know how the Sixers are going to finish the season, so there is zero suspense there.   

For that reason, Okafor just doesn't seem to make nay logical sense to me, based on the conversations reported. Not unless you specifically twist it around.

#1 - Contrary to how it was reported, Danny never actually called the target a star.  He said the team was very close to adding a high-quality player.  Despite the naysayers, Okafor is 20 years old and putting up outstanding stats for a rookie.  His touch around the rim is phenomenal.  He's averaging  17.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 1.4 blocks with 50% shooting in 30mpg.  He's basically a lock for him to be a 20 and 10 player.  His floor is Brook Lopez/Al Jefferson.  He also fills an obvious need for this team - SIZE.   He's a high quality player and someone who has tangible superstar potential... that's an obvious target for Boston.  If they can buy low on a guy with superstar potential, it's better than keeping a pick that is unlikely to end up in the top 2 (very unlikely to be a player of the caliber of Okafor).

#2 - Obvious risk for Philly.  Trading away Okafor a pick that might end up being outside the top 5?... HUGE risk.  Borderline insane risk.  They can get much more for him from a different team this summer.  Selling low on a prospect like Okafor is foolish.  It shouldn't be surprise that Philly backed out.     As for Boston, I'd say that giving up the brooklyn 1st for Okafor is a complete no-brainer.  Ainge isn't going to say that, though.   If he has any hope of landing Okafor later, he can't admit that our position in the trade was a "no brainer".   He has to say "hey we are taking a risk on a guy with attitude problems and a game that doesn't fit the modern NBA.  He could destroy our chemistry!  We're 3rd in the East!  That pick is probably going to be Ben Simmons... the next phenom!  HUGE risk for Boston.   HUUUGE!!!"...  ALso, we don't know what else Boston was giving up in the deal.  If it involved giving up the Brooklyn pick + Smart or Bradley, that's a considerable gamble by Boston. 

#3 - It AbSOLUTELY fits.  Seriously?  It's foolish for Philly to trade Okafor right now.  They would have been stupid to do that.  If they wait until the summer they can see if Embiid is healthy,they can see where various teams land in the lotto, they can see who becomes available, etc.  Also, despite the assertions from the casuals here, the reality is that barring injury there's no way no way Okafor or Noel's trade value goes any lower than it is right now.  Okafor put up 33 points last night.  Noel is continuing to improve.  Those two are still finding their way in this league.  It's clear they can't coexist, but teams around the league aren't braindead... they know what kind of potential both of those guys have.  There will still be tons of offers this summer.  You never know who will make an offer. Perhaps Portland will offer up CJ McCollum for their least favorite big.   Perhaps the Bucks will offer up Jabari Parker.  Maybe the Magic will offer up a package built around Aaron Gordon and Mario Hezonja.  Maybe the Lakers will decide to give up D'Angelo Russell.    Trading Okafor for that Brooklyn pick would have been dumb.  Bottom line.  Trading Okafor for that Brooklyn pick + Smart or Bradley?... intriguing, but still probably better to wait until the Summer.

I also want to point out some additional things here.   

Ainge isn't an idiot.  Ainge knows what Okafor can bring to the table.  He knows that kid has incredible potential.   Maybe he has defensive limitations, but most 20 year old rookies do.  His talent is undeniable.   Here's some random thoughts to take into consideration when talking about Okafor to Boston.

- His limitations now are the same limitations we were aware of prior to him being drafted.  He's the player as advertised.  Uncanny offensive ability.  Low post beast.  Real size.  Defensive struggles.   That's why he went 3rd instead of 1st. 

- His rookie season is supremely underrated.   That kid can ball.  It's being overshadowed by Karl Towns.   Porzingus gets a lot of deserved press as well, but that's partially a result of him playing on the Knicks... he's a tiny bit overrated.

- There were reports prior to the draft that the Celtics were willing to offer Philly a godfather offer if Okafor fell to them.  Okafor has been a target for a while.  Conflicting reports on what we actually offered (there was a rumored offer of Smart and #16 for #3 and Noel that was later called a joke rumor by Bill Simmons).

Okafor's attitude: 

I want to comment on this.  Let's think about Okafor's perspective here.

#1 - He's been a winner at every level.  He won a NCAA TItle as a Freshman.  If Losing isn't taking a toll on him, that's not the kind of player we should want.

#2 - Okafor knows Philly didn't want him.  Philly was desperate to get D'Angelo Russell.  Okafor was supposed to end up on the Lakers, but Los Angeles got cute.  Some suggest the Lakers were trying to force Philly into paying extra for Russell.   Nonetheless, Okafor ends up in probably the worst possible situation.  The team has zero intention of winning this year.  The team already has a cornerstone quality big in Noel and a player frequently referred to as the franchise player (Embiid) at his position.  It had to be clear to him from day 1 that he was there, because he was the best player available... not because Philly intends to build around him. 

#3 - Building on above, Okafor knows his role in Philly is "asset".  From day 1, it has to be clear to him that it's unlikely they keep him.  How can he get emotionally invested when he knows he's a sitting duck?  If Healthy, that's Embiid's team.  Noel is the guy who fits their system now.  Okafor is a trade chip.   He's a 20 year old trying to adjust to this league and he's playing on a team that very likely isn't keeping him... while suffering through loss after loss after loss.  That's got to suck.

#4 - I want to remind everyone that Larry 'freakin Bird deformed his finger in bar fight in the middle of the playoffs.  His shooting percentage suffered and it likely cost us a championship that year.  Do you really think Ainge is above taking a risk on a wildly talent 20 year old kid who drunkenly shoved someone on camera and got caught speeding?   

I fully believe the report that Okafor was the target.  Makes complete sense.   My only hope is that the Brooklyn pick stays valuable enough that we are in position to snag one of those Philly bigs this Summer.   I'd be happy with any one of them.  They clearly have to trade 1 (or 2) and I can't see them waiting much longer. 

The offer was for Okafor.   Come to terms with it. 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 01:24:55 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #188 on: February 23, 2016, 12:58:35 AM »

Offline alldaboston

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- There were reported prior to the draft that the Celtics were willing to offer Philly a godfather offer if Okafor fell to them.  Okafor has been a target for a while.  Conflicting reports on what we actually offered (there was a rumored offer of Smart and #16 for #3 and Noel that was later called a joke rumor by Bill Simmons).


If Okafor was in rumors then the target wasn't okafor. Ainge said it was a player who wasn't involved in any rumors, a player that would surprise a lot of fans. Given the okafor rumors over the summer, not sure if we would be overly surprised if we got him.
I could very well see the Hawks... starting Taurean Prince at the 3, who is already better than Crowder, imo.

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Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #189 on: February 23, 2016, 01:03:06 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Okafor was obviously Danny's target.  Is what it is.  We had every reason to try trading for him.  He was obviously available. Can't blame philly for backing out.

This doesn't fit with the conversations with Danny.

1) Comment about the trade being for a star - Okafor isn't a star.  He's a prospect with a very bright future, but definitely not a star.

2) The comment about the trade being a big risk for both teams - doesn't really make much sense to me if it's Okafor.  The guy isn't really injury prone, he's on a cheapish rookie contract, he's already putting up some numbers.  Every trade involves some risk, but I wouldn't say that this is a major risk for either team.

3) The comment about the team deciding to 'stick it out this year and see how they go, then revisit it later'.  That makes zero sense if it's the Sixers.  They are the worst team in the entire NBA.  They have no hope of making a run this year and even sniffing the playoffs.  It just doesn't fit.  You could argue they want to wait to see how things go with Embiid's health by the time the offseason comes...or wait to see where the Brooklyn pick lands.  But even then it doesn't really fit what was said, which seems to suggest that they wanted to wait and see how the team can do.  We all know how the Sixers are going to finish the season, so there is zero suspense there.   

For that reason, Okafor just doesn't seem to make nay logical sense to me, based on the conversations reported. Not unless you specifically twist it around.

#1 - Contrary to how it was reported, Danny never actually called the target a star.  He said the team was very close to adding a high-quality player.  Despite the naysayers, Okafor is 20 years old and putting up outstanding stats for a rookie.  His touch around the rim is phenomenal.  He's averaging  17.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 1.4 blocks with 50% shooting in 30mpg.  He's basically a lock for him to be a 20 and 10 player.  His floor is Brook Lopez/Al Jefferson.  He also fills an obvious need for this team - SIZE.   He's a high quality player and someone who has tangible superstar potential... that's an obvious target for Boston.  If they can buy low on a guy with superstar potential, it's better than keeping a pick that is unlikely to end up in the top 2 (very unlikely to be a player of the caliber of Okafor).

#2 - Obvious risk for Philly.  Trading away Okafor a pick that might end up being outside the top 5?... HUGE risk.  Borderline insane risk.  They can get much more for him from a different team this summer.  Selling low on a prospect like Okafor is foolish.  It shouldn't be surprise that Philly backed out.     As for Boston, I'd say that giving up the brooklyn 1st for Okafor is a complete no-brainer.  Ainge isn't going to say that, though.   If he has any hope of landing Okafor later, he can't admit that our position in the trade was a "no brainer".   He has to say "hey we are taking a risk on a guy with attitude problems and a game that doesn't fit the modern NBA.  He could destroy our chemistry!  We're 3rd in the East!  That pick is probably going to be Ben Simmons... the next phenom!  HUGE risk for Boston.   HUUUGE!!!"...  ALso, we don't know what else Boston was giving up in the deal.  If it involved giving up the Brooklyn pick + Smart or Bradley, that's a considerable gamble by Boston. 

#3 - It AbSOLUTELY fits.  Seriously?  It's foolish for Philly to trade Okafor right now.  They would have been stupid to do that.  If they wait until the summer they can see if Embiid is healthy,they can see where various teams land in the lotto, they can see who becomes available, etc.  Also, despite the assertions from the casuals here, the reality is that barring injury there's no way no way Okafor or Noel's trade value goes any lower than it is right now.  Okafor put up 33 points last night.  Noel is continuing to improve.  Those two are still finding their way in this league.  It's clear they can't coexist, but teams around the league aren't braindead... they know what kind of potential both of those guys have.  There will still be tons of offers this summer.  You never know who will make an offer. Perhaps Portland will offer up CJ McCollum for their least favorite big.   Perhaps the Bucks will offer up Jabari Parker.  Maybe the Magic will offer up a package built around Aaron Gordon and Mario Hezonja.  Maybe the Lakers will decide to give up D'Angelo Russell.    Trading Okafor for that Brooklyn pick would have been dumb.  Bottom line.  Trading Okafor for that Brooklyn pick + Smart or Bradley?... intriguing, but still probably better to wait until the Summer.

I also want to point out some additional things here.   

Ainge isn't an idiot.  Ainge knows what Okafor can bring to the table.  He knows that kid has incredible potential.   Maybe he has defensive limitations, but most 20 year old rookies do.  His talent is undeniable.   Here's some random thoughts to take into consideration when talking about Okafor to Boston.

- His limitations now are the same limitations we were aware of prior to him being drafted.  He's the player as advertised.  Uncanny offensive ability.  Low post beast.  Real size.  Defensive struggles.   That's why he went 3rd instead of 1st. 

- His rookie season is supremely underrated.   That kid can ball.  It's being overshadowed by Karl Towns.   Porzingus gets a lot of deserved press as well, but that's partially a result of him playing on the Knicks... he's a tiny bit overrated.

- There were reported prior to the draft that the Celtics were willing to offer Philly a godfather offer if Okafor fell to them.  Okafor has been a target for a while.  Conflicting reports on what we actually offered (there was a rumored offer of Smart and #16 for #3 and Noel that was later called a joke rumor by Bill Simmons).

Okafor's attitude: 

I want to comment on this.  Let's think about Okafor's perspective here.

#1 - He's been a winner at every level.  He won a NCAA TItle as a Freshman.  If Losing isn't taking a toll on him, that's not the kind of player we should want.

#2 - Okafor knows Philly didn't want him.  Philly was desperate to get D'Angelo Russell.  Okafor was supposed to end up on the Lakers, but Los Angeles got cute.  Some suggest the Lakers were trying to force Philly into paying extra for Russell.   Nonetheless, Okafor ends up in probably the worst possible situation.  The team has zero intention of winning this year.  The team already has a cornerstone quality big in Noel and a player frequently referred to as the franchise player (Embiid) at his position.  It had to be clear to him from day 1 that he was there, because he was the best player available. 

#3 - Building on above, Okafor knows his role in Philly is "asset".  From day 1, it has to be clear to him that it's unlikely they keep him.  How can he get emotionally invested when he knows he's a sitting duck?  If Healthy, that's Embiid's team.  Noel is the guy who fits their system now.  Okafor is a trade chip.   He's a 20 year old trying to adjust to this league and he's playing on a team that very likely isn't keeping him... while suffering through loss after loss after loss.  That's got to suck.

#4 - I want to remind everyone that Larry 'freakin Bird deformed his finger in bar fight in the middle of the playoffs.  His shooting percentage suffered and it likely cost us a championship that year.  Do you really think Ainge is above taking a risk on a wildly talent 20 year old kid who drunkenly shoved someone on camera and got caught speeding?   

I fully believe the report that Okafor was the target.  Makes complete sense.   My only hope is that the Brooklyn pick stays valuable enough that we are in position to snag one of those Philly bigs this Summer.   I'd be happy with any one of them.  They clearly have to trade 1 (or 2) and I can't see them waiting much longer.

I think you greatly exaggerate Okafor's talent, and the 'greatness' of his rookie season.

As I've stated in other thread's, Okafor is a big who's only real talent at this point is his ability to score in the post.  There is absolutely NOTHING else he does right now at an above average level - or arguably even an average level. I don't even think he rates as average as a rim protector (besides the most basic blocks per game measure).

You say his floor is Jefferson / Lopez - I would suggest this is more likely to be his ceiling.

You say he's practically a lock to be a 20/10 guy - there is no evidence to suggest that is the case. 

20 PPG sure, I don't doubt that.  But his rebounding so far has been well below par for a player of his size, and rebounding is one thing that usually translates from a player's rookie season to the rest of their career.   A 6'11" 260 pound guy with a 7'5" wingspan averaging 7.5 rebounds a game in starters minutes (and ~13% rebound rate) is borderline shameful. 

His scoring is also greatly inflated by the fact that he is playing on the Sixers, and I can easily provide data to back that argument - primarily the facts that he has a sky high usage rate, takes an incredibly high number of shots, and isn't especially efficient on offense.  All clear signs of a guy who needs lots of shots in order to get lots of points - something he likely wouldn't be getting on any other team.

I'm not saying he isn't talented or that he isn't going to be a good player, just saying that the Okafor is grossly overrated right now.  Nerlens Noel looks like a far, far more accomplished overall player at this point - he just doesn't excel in the "glamour" stat (PPG) like Okafor does, but other than that he's been better at every imaginable area...and is only a year older.

I also disagree that Okafor has performed as projected.  Offensively, maybe, but everybody expected he'd be a great rebounder and an excellent play maker (for a big) at the NBA level.  So far he's woeful at both.  Also it was projected that he would be an average or slightly below average defender, but nobody expected him to be almost Enes Kanter bad.

Also you talk about it as if it's questionable whether Porzingis has had a better rookie year an Okafor.  It's not even remotely questionable.  He's been WAY better than Okafor.  Like, on a whole other level.  Towns has been the best rookie by a a long shot, followed by Porzingis, followed by Okafor who is a very clear and distant third.  Actually i'm not even sure if Okafor has been convincingly better than Mudiay or Randle (I consider this his rookie year) to be honest.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 01:12:30 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #190 on: February 23, 2016, 01:15:11 AM »

Offline chambers

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Okafor was obviously Danny's target.  Is what it is.  We had every reason to try trading for him.  He was obviously available. Can't blame philly for backing out.

This doesn't fit with the conversations with Danny.

1) Comment about the trade being for a star - Okafor isn't a star.  He's a prospect with a very bright future, but definitely not a star.

2) The comment about the trade being a big risk for both teams - doesn't really make much sense to me if it's Okafor.  The guy isn't really injury prone, he's on a cheapish rookie contract, he's already putting up some numbers.  Every trade involves some risk, but I wouldn't say that this is a major risk for either team.

3) The comment about the team deciding to 'stick it out this year and see how they go, then revisit it later'.  That makes zero sense if it's the Sixers.  They are the worst team in the entire NBA.  They have no hope of making a run this year and even sniffing the playoffs.  It just doesn't fit.  You could argue they want to wait to see how things go with Embiid's health by the time the offseason comes...or wait to see where the Brooklyn pick lands.  But even then it doesn't really fit what was said, which seems to suggest that they wanted to wait and see how the team can do.  We all know how the Sixers are going to finish the season, so there is zero suspense there.   

For that reason, Okafor just doesn't seem to make nay logical sense to me, based on the conversations reported. Not unless you specifically twist it around.

#1 - Contrary to how it was reported, Danny never actually called the target a star.  He said the team was very close to adding a high-quality player.  Despite the naysayers, Okafor is 20 years old and putting up outstanding stats for a rookie.  His touch around the rim is phenomenal.  He's averaging  17.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 1.4 blocks with 50% shooting in 30mpg.  He's basically a lock for him to be a 20 and 10 player.  His floor is Brook Lopez/Al Jefferson.  He also fills an obvious need for this team - SIZE.   He's a high quality player and someone who has tangible superstar potential... that's an obvious target for Boston.  If they can buy low on a guy with superstar potential, it's better than keeping a pick that is unlikely to end up in the top 2 (very unlikely to be a player of the caliber of Okafor).

#2 - Obvious risk for Philly.  Trading away Okafor a pick that might end up being outside the top 5?... HUGE risk.  Borderline insane risk.  They can get much more for him from a different team this summer.  Selling low on a prospect like Okafor is foolish.  It shouldn't be surprise that Philly backed out.     As for Boston, I'd say that giving up the brooklyn 1st for Okafor is a complete no-brainer.  Ainge isn't going to say that, though.   If he has any hope of landing Okafor later, he can't admit that our position in the trade was a "no brainer".   He has to say "hey we are taking a risk on a guy with attitude problems and a game that doesn't fit the modern NBA.  He could destroy our chemistry!  We're 3rd in the East!  That pick is probably going to be Ben Simmons... the next phenom!  HUGE risk for Boston.   HUUUGE!!!"...  ALso, we don't know what else Boston was giving up in the deal.  If it involved giving up the Brooklyn pick + Smart or Bradley, that's a considerable gamble by Boston. 

#3 - It AbSOLUTELY fits.  Seriously?  It's foolish for Philly to trade Okafor right now.  They would have been stupid to do that.  If they wait until the summer they can see if Embiid is healthy,they can see where various teams land in the lotto, they can see who becomes available, etc.  Also, despite the assertions from the casuals here, the reality is that barring injury there's no way no way Okafor or Noel's trade value goes any lower than it is right now.  Okafor put up 33 points last night.  Noel is continuing to improve.  Those two are still finding their way in this league.  It's clear they can't coexist, but teams around the league aren't braindead... they know what kind of potential both of those guys have.  There will still be tons of offers this summer.  You never know who will make an offer. Perhaps Portland will offer up CJ McCollum for their least favorite big.   Perhaps the Bucks will offer up Jabari Parker.  Maybe the Magic will offer up a package built around Aaron Gordon and Mario Hezonja.  Maybe the Lakers will decide to give up D'Angelo Russell.    Trading Okafor for that Brooklyn pick would have been dumb.  Bottom line.  Trading Okafor for that Brooklyn pick + Smart or Bradley?... intriguing, but still probably better to wait until the Summer.

I also want to point out some additional things here.   

Ainge isn't an idiot.  Ainge knows what Okafor can bring to the table.  He knows that kid has incredible potential.   Maybe he has defensive limitations, but most 20 year old rookies do.  His talent is undeniable.   Here's some random thoughts to take into consideration when talking about Okafor to Boston.

- His limitations now are the same limitations we were aware of prior to him being drafted.  He's the player as advertised.  Uncanny offensive ability.  Low post beast.  Real size.  Defensive struggles.   That's why he went 3rd instead of 1st. 

- His rookie season is supremely underrated.   That kid can ball.  It's being overshadowed by Karl Towns.   Porzingus gets a lot of deserved press as well, but that's partially a result of him playing on the Knicks... he's a tiny bit overrated.

- There were reported prior to the draft that the Celtics were willing to offer Philly a godfather offer if Okafor fell to them.  Okafor has been a target for a while.  Conflicting reports on what we actually offered (there was a rumored offer of Smart and #16 for #3 and Noel that was later called a joke rumor by Bill Simmons).

Okafor's attitude: 

I want to comment on this.  Let's think about Okafor's perspective here.

#1 - He's been a winner at every level.  He won a NCAA TItle as a Freshman.  If Losing isn't taking a toll on him, that's not the kind of player we should want.

#2 - Okafor knows Philly didn't want him.  Philly was desperate to get D'Angelo Russell.  Okafor was supposed to end up on the Lakers, but Los Angeles got cute.  Some suggest the Lakers were trying to force Philly into paying extra for Russell.   Nonetheless, Okafor ends up in probably the worst possible situation.  The team has zero intention of winning this year.  The team already has a cornerstone quality big in Noel and a player frequently referred to as the franchise player (Embiid) at his position.  It had to be clear to him from day 1 that he was there, because he was the best player available... not because Philly intends to build around him. 

#3 - Building on above, Okafor knows his role in Philly is "asset".  From day 1, it has to be clear to him that it's unlikely they keep him.  How can he get emotionally invested when he knows he's a sitting duck?  If Healthy, that's Embiid's team.  Noel is the guy who fits their system now.  Okafor is a trade chip.   He's a 20 year old trying to adjust to this league and he's playing on a team that very likely isn't keeping him... while suffering through loss after loss after loss.  That's got to suck.

#4 - I want to remind everyone that Larry 'freakin Bird deformed his finger in bar fight in the middle of the playoffs.  His shooting percentage suffered and it likely cost us a championship that year.  Do you really think Ainge is above taking a risk on a wildly talent 20 year old kid who drunkenly shoved someone on camera and got caught speeding?   

I fully believe the report that Okafor was the target.  Makes complete sense.   My only hope is that the Brooklyn pick stays valuable enough that we are in position to snag one of those Philly bigs this Summer.   I'd be happy with any one of them.  They clearly have to trade 1 (or 2) and I can't see them waiting much longer. 

The offer was for Okafor.   Come to terms with it.

There's literally nothing to suggest it was Okafur other than Bulpett's tweet,  and Ainge didn't say anything about it not being a star. 
 All he said was that it wasn't one of the rumored guys like Love, Howard or Horford.

Given that the Bulls tried to trade Gasol to the Kings, it's just as easy to speculate that it was for Jimmy Butler who is possibly screaming for a way out of Chicago's mediocrity mill right now.

Go to the RealGM Bulls board and look at the thread where at least half of their reg posters are saying it could definitely have been for Jimmy B.
Perfect time for Bulls to cash in on Butler with some Brooklyn  picks, the Kings lottery pick and their own lottery pick while they develop Mcdermott and Portis.

If Bulpett got the info from the Celtics,  there's a very strong argument to say that they purposely leaked Okafur to throw people off and protect a potential trade in the offseason.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #191 on: February 23, 2016, 01:15:53 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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- There were reported prior to the draft that the Celtics were willing to offer Philly a godfather offer if Okafor fell to them.  Okafor has been a target for a while.  Conflicting reports on what we actually offered (there was a rumored offer of Smart and #16 for #3 and Noel that was later called a joke rumor by Bill Simmons).


If Okafor was in rumors then the target wasn't okafor. Ainge said it was a player who wasn't involved in any rumors, a player that would surprise a lot of fans. Given the okafor rumors over the summer, not sure if we would be overly surprised if we got him.
None of the rumors around the deadline involved Boston trading for Okafor.  That's what he was referring to. 

I get why people are desperately clinging to the idea that we didn't offer the farm for Okafor, because there's been a borderline-delusional underselling of Philly's assets on this forum and admitting Ainge would want a Philly asset pains some fans here, but I think it's a waste of time speculating further on who Ainge failed to acquire at the deadline... it was Okafor. 

Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #192 on: February 23, 2016, 01:17:01 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Okafor was obviously Danny's target.  Is what it is.  We had every reason to try trading for him.  He was obviously available. Can't blame philly for backing out.

This doesn't fit with the conversations with Danny.

1) Comment about the trade being for a star - Okafor isn't a star.  He's a prospect with a very bright future, but definitely not a star.

2) The comment about the trade being a big risk for both teams - doesn't really make much sense to me if it's Okafor.  The guy isn't really injury prone, he's on a cheapish rookie contract, he's already putting up some numbers.  Every trade involves some risk, but I wouldn't say that this is a major risk for either team.

3) The comment about the team deciding to 'stick it out this year and see how they go, then revisit it later'.  That makes zero sense if it's the Sixers.  They are the worst team in the entire NBA.  They have no hope of making a run this year and even sniffing the playoffs.  It just doesn't fit.  You could argue they want to wait to see how things go with Embiid's health by the time the offseason comes...or wait to see where the Brooklyn pick lands.  But even then it doesn't really fit what was said, which seems to suggest that they wanted to wait and see how the team can do.  We all know how the Sixers are going to finish the season, so there is zero suspense there.   

For that reason, Okafor just doesn't seem to make nay logical sense to me, based on the conversations reported. Not unless you specifically twist it around.

#1 - Contrary to how it was reported, Danny never actually called the target a star.  He said the team was very close to adding a high-quality player.  Despite the naysayers, Okafor is 20 years old and putting up outstanding stats for a rookie.  His touch around the rim is phenomenal.  He's averaging  17.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 1.4 blocks with 50% shooting in 30mpg.  He's basically a lock for him to be a 20 and 10 player.  His floor is Brook Lopez/Al Jefferson.  He also fills an obvious need for this team - SIZE.   He's a high quality player and someone who has tangible superstar potential... that's an obvious target for Boston.  If they can buy low on a guy with superstar potential, it's better than keeping a pick that is unlikely to end up in the top 2 (very unlikely to be a player of the caliber of Okafor).

#2 - Obvious risk for Philly.  Trading away Okafor a pick that might end up being outside the top 5?... HUGE risk.  Borderline insane risk.  They can get much more for him from a different team this summer.  Selling low on a prospect like Okafor is foolish.  It shouldn't be surprise that Philly backed out.     As for Boston, I'd say that giving up the brooklyn 1st for Okafor is a complete no-brainer.  Ainge isn't going to say that, though.   If he has any hope of landing Okafor later, he can't admit that our position in the trade was a "no brainer".   He has to say "hey we are taking a risk on a guy with attitude problems and a game that doesn't fit the modern NBA.  He could destroy our chemistry!  We're 3rd in the East!  That pick is probably going to be Ben Simmons... the next phenom!  HUGE risk for Boston.   HUUUGE!!!"...  ALso, we don't know what else Boston was giving up in the deal.  If it involved giving up the Brooklyn pick + Smart or Bradley, that's a considerable gamble by Boston. 

#3 - It AbSOLUTELY fits.  Seriously?  It's foolish for Philly to trade Okafor right now.  They would have been stupid to do that.  If they wait until the summer they can see if Embiid is healthy,they can see where various teams land in the lotto, they can see who becomes available, etc.  Also, despite the assertions from the casuals here, the reality is that barring injury there's no way no way Okafor or Noel's trade value goes any lower than it is right now.  Okafor put up 33 points last night.  Noel is continuing to improve.  Those two are still finding their way in this league.  It's clear they can't coexist, but teams around the league aren't braindead... they know what kind of potential both of those guys have.  There will still be tons of offers this summer.  You never know who will make an offer. Perhaps Portland will offer up CJ McCollum for their least favorite big.   Perhaps the Bucks will offer up Jabari Parker.  Maybe the Magic will offer up a package built around Aaron Gordon and Mario Hezonja.  Maybe the Lakers will decide to give up D'Angelo Russell.    Trading Okafor for that Brooklyn pick would have been dumb.  Bottom line.  Trading Okafor for that Brooklyn pick + Smart or Bradley?... intriguing, but still probably better to wait until the Summer.

I also want to point out some additional things here.   

Ainge isn't an idiot.  Ainge knows what Okafor can bring to the table.  He knows that kid has incredible potential.   Maybe he has defensive limitations, but most 20 year old rookies do.  His talent is undeniable.   Here's some random thoughts to take into consideration when talking about Okafor to Boston.

- His limitations now are the same limitations we were aware of prior to him being drafted.  He's the player as advertised.  Uncanny offensive ability.  Low post beast.  Real size.  Defensive struggles.   That's why he went 3rd instead of 1st. 

- His rookie season is supremely underrated.   That kid can ball.  It's being overshadowed by Karl Towns.   Porzingus gets a lot of deserved press as well, but that's partially a result of him playing on the Knicks... he's a tiny bit overrated.

- There were reported prior to the draft that the Celtics were willing to offer Philly a godfather offer if Okafor fell to them.  Okafor has been a target for a while.  Conflicting reports on what we actually offered (there was a rumored offer of Smart and #16 for #3 and Noel that was later called a joke rumor by Bill Simmons).

Okafor's attitude: 

I want to comment on this.  Let's think about Okafor's perspective here.

#1 - He's been a winner at every level.  He won a NCAA TItle as a Freshman.  If Losing isn't taking a toll on him, that's not the kind of player we should want.

#2 - Okafor knows Philly didn't want him.  Philly was desperate to get D'Angelo Russell.  Okafor was supposed to end up on the Lakers, but Los Angeles got cute.  Some suggest the Lakers were trying to force Philly into paying extra for Russell.   Nonetheless, Okafor ends up in probably the worst possible situation.  The team has zero intention of winning this year.  The team already has a cornerstone quality big in Noel and a player frequently referred to as the franchise player (Embiid) at his position.  It had to be clear to him from day 1 that he was there, because he was the best player available... not because Philly intends to build around him. 

#3 - Building on above, Okafor knows his role in Philly is "asset".  From day 1, it has to be clear to him that it's unlikely they keep him.  How can he get emotionally invested when he knows he's a sitting duck?  If Healthy, that's Embiid's team.  Noel is the guy who fits their system now.  Okafor is a trade chip.   He's a 20 year old trying to adjust to this league and he's playing on a team that very likely isn't keeping him... while suffering through loss after loss after loss.  That's got to suck.

#4 - I want to remind everyone that Larry 'freakin Bird deformed his finger in bar fight in the middle of the playoffs.  His shooting percentage suffered and it likely cost us a championship that year.  Do you really think Ainge is above taking a risk on a wildly talent 20 year old kid who drunkenly shoved someone on camera and got caught speeding?   

I fully believe the report that Okafor was the target.  Makes complete sense.   My only hope is that the Brooklyn pick stays valuable enough that we are in position to snag one of those Philly bigs this Summer.   I'd be happy with any one of them.  They clearly have to trade 1 (or 2) and I can't see them waiting much longer. 

The offer was for Okafor.   Come to terms with it.

There's literally nothing to suggest it was Okafur other than Bulpett's tweet,  and Ainge didn't say anything about it not being a star. 
 All he said was that it wasn't one of the rumored guys like Love, Howard or Horford.

Given that the Bulls tried to trade Gasol to the Kings, it's just as easy to speculate that it was for Jimmy Butler who is possibly screaming for a way out of Chicago's mediocrity mill right now.

Go to the RealGM Bulls board and look at the thread where at least half of their reg posters are saying it could definitely have been for Jimmy B.
Perfect time for Bulls to cash in on Butler with some Brooklyn  picks, the Kings lottery pick and their own lottery pick while they develop Mcdermott and Portis.

If Bulpett got the info from the Celtics,  there's a very strong argument to say that they purposely leaked Okafur to throw people off and protect a potential trade in the offseason.
Could it have been Butler?  Sure.  Was it Butler?  No.  It was Okafor.

Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #193 on: February 23, 2016, 01:30:19 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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I get that anyone can say arguing about anything on the internet is a waste of time, but that being said.... I don't understand how you guys can both be so invested in a conversation that likely will never be resolved. Furthermore, it is a hypothetical situation that didn't happen. I get that Larbrd like's Okafor. I get that other people don't like him as much. Still the intense debate of pretending who we know was involved in a proposed trade that didn't happened seems extremely asinine no? 

Re: Danny Ainge on Toucher and Rich (Potential "Big Trade" Discussed)
« Reply #194 on: February 23, 2016, 01:42:10 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Could it have been Butler?  Sure.  Was it Butler?  No.  It was Okafor.

The only problem is that you state this as if it is fact.  It isn't.  It's speculation.

You are assuming it was Okafor, but you at the end of the day you are pretty much taking wild guesses just like the rest of us are.  None of us really know who it was, and Okafor doesn't match the circumstances any more than some of the other players who have been brought up.

So if you want to say that you believe it was Okafor, then fine.  But you can't say it WAS Okafor, because you do not know that.