Celtics & Rockets discussing Howard trade

[Dino Pitino]

Beside the fact that Dwight has always underachieved-- he is not a rocket scientist nor someone you want to build a team around.  A supposed devout christian with 6 (some say 8 ) plus children buy 6+ different women.  Look up dwight howard and children and think if this is a leader who can be the core of the Celtics.  Sounds slimey and too stupid to me.

Well, it's ironic that he's a devout Christian, because evolutionarily that's a great strategy, to diversify his seed. Maybe the kids will be missing him as a father, but then again he's a mega-multi-millionaire so each of those kids will be materially set for life. Before you judge him for it, perhaps you should ask the mothers if they're happy to have procreated with Dwight Howard. I suspect they're quite happy. Genetically and financially, they hit the lottery in terms of father material. They're probably happier than we'd be if the Celtics won the Simmons Sweepstakes.

[crimson_stallion]

If we're talking about Howard, I've gotta imagine we're lowballing like crazy. 

Even then it doesn't make much sense, except maybe as "look, we've got a name player already!" bait for free agents.

Why? He'd be a massive upgrade at center. Just because folks don't like him doesn't make him bad.

As for what he's worth, this:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=82298.msg2011585#msg2011585

I agree he'd be a big upgrade - I'm not among the "he sucks" crowd.  But at this stage he's not enough to make us contenders and his contract cuts into our FA space, which Danny is supposedly averse to.  Or he opts out this offseason, we have a choice between him bolting town or tying up a ton of money in his next contract.  But the lowballing would be because of the possibility of him leaving in 3 months.

I disagree about him not being enough too make us a contender.

Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder have basically turned is from a bottom 6 lottery team to bring within 1 game off the 3rd seed in the east, because they are guys who simply added skills we needed - a go to scorer, and a tough 3+D wing player.

A guy like Howard offers us size, strength, length and defensive presence that nobody else on this team can, while also giving us a dominant rebounder and a still very capable scorer inside.

This is basically the same as getting an out-of-his-prime Andre Drummond in return for a couple of scrubs and some first round picks that we ultimately dont need.given how many we have.

I read bison had around $30m in guaranteed contacts next year, and the cap is rising to $90m or so. We can easily ass dwight to out cap and sup have room for one or two max player(s).  Of he opts put and walks, then we are back where we started (tons of cap space) so its not much of a loss either way.

Is much rather do this and gamble on a short term contract, rather than take onsomebody like Kevin Love, who's making $100m over the next 5 years. Any day. 

Really a pretty low risk move as long as we dont give up Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, Olynyk or any of the Brooklyn picks.

[feckless]

Beside the fact that Dwight has always underachieved-- he is not a rocket scientist nor someone you want to build a team around.  A supposed devout christian with 6 (some say 8 ) plus children buy 6+ different women.  Look up dwight howard and children and think if this is a leader who can be the core of the Celtics.  Sounds slimey and too stupid to me.

Well, it's ironic that he's a devout Christian, because evolutionarily that's a great strategy, to diversify his seed. Maybe the kids will be missing him as a father, but then again he's a mega-multi-millionaire so each of those kids will be materially set for life. Before you judge him for it, perhaps you should ask the mothers if they're happy to have procreated with Dwight Howard. I suspect they're quite happy. Genetically and financially, they hit the lottery in terms of father material. They're probably happier than we'd be if the Celtics won the Simmons Sweepstakes.

If you check there are multiple accounts of multiple lawsuits --being a lousy father and absolute disrespect for the women he has used and the children for whom he provides as little as the law allows.  He is by most accounts the worst kind of slime.

[Dino Pitino]

Beside the fact that Dwight has always underachieved-- he is not a rocket scientist nor someone you want to build a team around.  A supposed devout christian with 6 (some say 8 ) plus children buy 6+ different women.  Look up dwight howard and children and think if this is a leader who can be the core of the Celtics.  Sounds slimey and too stupid to me.

Well, it's ironic that he's a devout Christian, because evolutionarily that's a great strategy, to diversify his seed. Maybe the kids will be missing him as a father, but then again he's a mega-multi-millionaire so each of those kids will be materially set for life. Before you judge him for it, perhaps you should ask the mothers if they're happy to have procreated with Dwight Howard. I suspect they're quite happy. Genetically and financially, they hit the lottery in terms of father material. They're probably happier than we'd be if the Celtics won the Simmons Sweepstakes.

If you check there are multiple accounts of multiple lawsuits --being a lousy father and absolute disrespect for the women he has used and the children for whom he provides as little as the law allows.  He is by most accounts the worst kind of slime.

What does "as little as the law allows" mean?

[Chris22]

Howard sucks.
Let someone else over pay him.

[Forza Juventus]

Critics always get so personal with their criticism of Howard. Doesn't Larry Bird have a child he barely speaks too? Look up Peyton Manning's past and you'll find rape allegations from when he was at college, nobody ever talks about that. Dwight Howars is not perfect, neither are any of us.

[Chris22]

Critics always get so personal with their criticism of Howard. Doesn't Larry Bird have a child he barely speaks too? Look up Peyton Manning's past and you'll find rape allegations from when he was at college, nobody ever talks about that. Dwight Howars is not perfect, neither are any of us.

Howard is way over rated as a player.

[Forza Juventus]

Critics always get so personal with their criticism of Howard. Doesn't Larry Bird have a child he barely speaks too? Look up Peyton Manning's past and you'll find rape allegations from when he was at college, nobody ever talks about that. Dwight Howars is not perfect, neither are any of us.

Howard is way over rated as a player.

At this point he is under rated. Sure he's not a franchise player or a all star but he is still a good player, and good enough to start in Boston. The only thing I would be worried of is teams fouling him on purpose so he had to shoot free throws.

[feckless]

Beside the fact that Dwight has always underachieved-- he is not a rocket scientist nor someone you want to build a team around.  A supposed devout christian with 6 (some say 8 ) plus children buy 6+ different women.  Look up dwight howard and children and think if this is a leader who can be the core of the Celtics.  Sounds slimey and too stupid to me.

Well, it's ironic that he's a devout Christian, because evolutionarily that's a great strategy, to diversify his seed. Maybe the kids will be missing him as a father, but then again he's a mega-multi-millionaire so each of those kids will be materially set for life. Before you judge him for it, perhaps you should ask the mothers if they're happy to have procreated with Dwight Howard. I suspect they're quite happy. Genetically and financially, they hit the lottery in terms of father material. They're probably happier than we'd be if the Celtics won the Simmons Sweepstakes.

If you check there are multiple accounts of multiple lawsuits --being a lousy father and absolute disrespect for the women he has used and the children for whom he provides as little as the law allows.  He is by most accounts the worst kind of slime.

What does "as little as the law allows" mean?

He fights child support and pays only what the court orders--you implied he was generous and these kids were lucky to have him--I have not seen those accounts.

The Celtics have always professed to be a franchise of values.  They have had a zero tolerance for "issues" and those who have been involved with the law have found themselves no longer C's.  Look up Sebastian Telfair and Orien Greene for examples.  I just find it hard to believe that someone with Dwight's character is someone you want to bring in as your best player/leader.

[fairweatherfan]

If we're talking about Howard, I've gotta imagine we're lowballing like crazy. 

Even then it doesn't make much sense, except maybe as "look, we've got a name player already!" bait for free agents.

Why? He'd be a massive upgrade at center. Just because folks don't like him doesn't make him bad.

As for what he's worth, this:

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=82298.msg2011585#msg2011585

I agree he'd be a big upgrade - I'm not among the "he sucks" crowd.  But at this stage he's not enough to make us contenders and his contract cuts into our FA space, which Danny is supposedly averse to.  Or he opts out this offseason, we have a choice between him bolting town or tying up a ton of money in his next contract.  But the lowballing would be because of the possibility of him leaving in 3 months.

I disagree about him not being enough too make us a contender.

Can we really have a reasonable hope of beating 2 out of 3 of Cleveland, San Antonio, Golden State just by adding Howard in?  I gotta strongly disagree.  We can separate ourselves from most of the pack in the East, but that probably means the 3 seed. 

Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder have basically turned is from a bottom 6 lottery team to bring within 1 game off the 3rd seed in the east, because they are guys who simply added skills we needed - a go to scorer, and a tough 3+D wing player.

A guy like Howard offers us size, strength, length and defensive presence that nobody else on this team can, while also giving us a dominant rebounder and a still very capable scorer inside.

Agreed on basically all counts here.  He's an upgrade and fills a need.

This is basically the same as getting an out-of-his-prime Andre Drummond in return for a couple of scrubs and some first round picks that we ultimately dont need.given how many we have.

We don't know what we'd actually give up, it's all supposition.  But it sounds like you're agreeing with my "we're probably lowballing like crazy" point.

Is much rather do this and gamble on a short term contract, rather than take onsomebody like Kevin Love, who's making $100m over the next 5 years. Any day. 

I think so too, but that's not the choice here - the choice is trade for Howard or don't, not trade for Howard or trade for Love.

Really a pretty low risk move as long as we dont give up Thomas, Bradley, Crowder, Olynyk or any of the Brooklyn picks.

Sure, but again we don't know what's being discussed.  Overall, I don't like Howard but he would improve our team.  I just stand by it not making us contenders.  It might make us one piece away from a contender, but that's what Houston's thought for a while and they already had a superstar (and some talented role players) to put alongside him.

[Future Celtics Owner]

If we traded for Howard, then we would be the team with the expiring malcontent and a first round exit.  This argument could go either way.  If they are pretty good assets, why don't we keep them?

Houston is a bottom five defense. That's a huge part of why they're doomed in the playoffs. Howard's D Rating is 4 points better than the team's. The Celtics are a top two defense, and their weaknesses on D happen to be exactly what Howard excels at, interior defense and defensive rebounding. If he were to improve the Celtics' D Rating by 4 points, then we'd be practically equal to San Antonio. That ain't 1st-round-exit material. That's ECF material.

Two mid-late 1sts are pretty good assets for a team looking to get back something for an expiring Howard. Two mid-late 1sts are excessive assets for a team that already has a surplus of picks and a surplus of mid-late 1st talent at the bottom of the roster.

The argument does NOT go either way.
The contexts are very different.

I agree. But then you are dealing with DH and history says he is the worst to deal with. We would have options and even keeping him and overpaying could turn out good if he stays healthy....especially/mostly for the playoffs.

I get the Cavs don't have a DH and that gives us a huge advantage. If we get DH I don't want to hear anything about a second or ECF appearance......we are in championship mode plain and simple.

We might be in that mode, but realistically we would be underdogs to the Cavs and massive Underdogs to GS/SAS.

Bridging the gap between us and that top tier seems virtually impossible unless we acquire another star which I dont really see happening.

I see Howard as a one-time rental that'd give us one decent chance to upset the Cavs and make the Finals, where anything is possible if the defense is really in sync by then. We'd be underdogs to the Cavs, but not by much. Yes, we'd be massive underdogs to either the Warriors or Spurs, but even if there'd be just a 15% chance of beating them, I think those odds are worth the price of two mid-late 1sts, considering the need to do something with that surplus. I mean, everyone is in love with the 15% chance we have at landing Simmons, right? An outside chance at a championship is nothing to scoff at. If it doesn't work, if we only make the ECF or Finals and lose, then it was an exciting deep playoff run, oodles of experience and exposure for our core, and all the best long-term assets are still in place to continue the rebuild just as before. If championships are all that matters to you, then a Howard trade is what you should want right now, because it's a one-off shot to poach a title in the middle of rebuilding, without hurting the rebuild.

those are all excellent arguments but I do think there is an incentive for Howard to sign here in my honest opinion. People this year are arguing the EAST is the better conference this year when historically speaking, the West was. Whatever case that may be, I feel in the East, the Cavs pretty much still have the East, and the 2nd Toronto Raptors are still very behind and not many if any teams right now in the East can really give the Cavs a run for their money.

The West right now still has Warriors and Spurs, throw in Thunder or Clippers if you want to or whatever team, but I don't see the West is definitely going to the Warriors with certainty.

If we get Howard, who historically speaking when he is with the Magics, gave the Cavs so much trouble in the regular season and playoffs.

Getting Dwight pushes us past a lot Eastern teams currently fighting with us to be in the middle. We might not win this year, but if we do get Howard in a theoretical world, and reaches the ECF and lose. I think that is enough incentive for Howard to sign an extension to have a chance to reach the ECF every year to face the Cavs or whatnot. I do not think the same could be said about him and the Rockets.

Even if he is a one year rental, Howard puts the Cavs and GSW in a position in which they will have to run a legit center(Bogut or etc from the Cavs) so no small ball. We have 4's that can hit the 3 and stretch the floor and our bigs would be great back-ups.

If we do do a Howard trade we could always do more trades to make the push.  Evan Fournier is a RFA and ORL has a ton of players at the 2-3. He is great on some nights but inconsistent and it may be the coach or just him idk.

[PhoSita]

He fights child support and pays only what the court orders

How many men in that situation act differently?

[feckless]

Critics always get so personal with their criticism of Howard. Doesn't Larry Bird have a child he barely speaks too? Look up Peyton Manning's past and you'll find rape allegations from when he was at college, nobody ever talks about that. Dwight Howars is not perfect, neither are any of us.

Do you know anyone who thumps his bible and has 8 children buy 8 different women.  If you do would you want them to be a leader?

[pearljammer10]

He fights child support and pays only what the court orders

How many men in that situation act differently?

Marcus Smart fights fans. Do you also have a problem with him?

[Forza Juventus]

Critics always get so personal with their criticism of Howard. Doesn't Larry Bird have a child he barely speaks too? Look up Peyton Manning's past and you'll find rape allegations from when he was at college, nobody ever talks about that. Dwight Howars is not perfect, neither are any of us.

Do you know anyone who thumps his bible and has 8 children buy 8 different women.  If you do would you want them to be a leader?

We have leaders, nobody is asking him to be a leader or even our best player.