IT4 vs. Lowry

[rondohondo]

Lowry and it's a no-brainier. He's been playing terrific this year.

So has Thomas and people still think he's a sixth on a contender! 

what's the problem with having an all-star level SCORER as a 6th man off the bench ? It means the team is stacked with talent and can contend for a title .

[Rondo9]

Lowry and it's a no-brainier. He's been playing terrific this year.

So has Thomas and people still think he's a sixth on a contender! 

what's the problem with having an all-star level SCORER as a 6th man off the bench ? It means the team is stacked with talent and can contend for a title .

Thomas is an All Star level player and should be treated like one.

[pearljammer10]

Lowry and it's a no-brainier. He's been playing terrific this year.

So has Thomas and people still think he's a sixth on a contender! 

what's the problem with having an all-star level SCORER as a 6th man off the bench ? It means the team is stacked with talent and can contend for a title .

Thomas is an All Star level player and should be treated like one.

His best role is as a 6th man on a contender playing 30 minutes off the bench. He can still be an All Star in that role.

[Rondo9]

Lowry and it's a no-brainier. He's been playing terrific this year.

So has Thomas and people still think he's a sixth on a contender! 

what's the problem with having an all-star level SCORER as a 6th man off the bench ? It means the team is stacked with talent and can contend for a title .

Thomas is an All Star level player and should be treated like one.

His best role is as a 6th man on a contender playing 30 minutes off the bench. He can still be an All Star in that role.

Why can't Thomas start? The Celtics are doing well and boast one of the defenses in the league.

[The Oracle]

The defensive rating with I.T. on the floor is a team worst 101.2.  With I.T. off the floor it is a team best 94.7.  He is a tremendous defensive liability.  He ideally should not be starting and would indeed be much more effective off the bench. 

[Rondo9]

The defensive rating with I.T. on the floor is a team worst 101.2.  With I.T. off the floor it is a team best 94.7.  He is a tremendous defensive liability.  He ideally should not be starting and would indeed be much more effective off the bench.

Then have have defensive minded players surrounding him. His scoring and passing ability is excellent and should be best be served as a starter.

As someone said, what does Isaiah need to do in order to earn respect around here? He's the first Celtic in 2-3 seasons to be selected as an All Star and he's still a sixth man on a contender team?

[KeepRondo]

The defensive rating with I.T. on the floor is a team worst 101.2.  With I.T. off the floor it is a team best 94.7.  He is a tremendous defensive liability.  He ideally should not be starting and would indeed be much more effective off the bench.

Then have have defensive minded players surrounding him. His scoring and passing ability is excellent and should be best be served as a starter.

As someone said, what does Isaiah need to do in order to earn respect around here? He's the first Celtic in 2-3 seasons to be selected as an All Star and he's still a sixth man on a contender team?

Right.

Get a bunch of Crowders and Smarts and try to win 74-72 every game.

[Celtics18]

I'll take Isaiah.  He's three years younger and almost half the price.

[crimson_stallion]

The defensive rating with I.T. on the floor is a team worst 101.2.  With I.T. off the floor it is a team best 94.7.  He is a tremendous defensive liability.  He ideally should not be starting and would indeed be much more effective off the bench.

Thomas has a defensive Real Plus Minus of -2.37 which ranks 65th out of 84 at the PG spot.

He also has an offensive Real Plus Minus of +4.49 which ranks 6th out of 84 at the PG spot.

Combine the two and he has an overall Real Plus Minus of +2.12 which ranks 9th among all NBA PG's. 

He might be a defensive liability (since he makes us worse on defense), but his defense is not a liability (since his offensive benefits far outweight his defensive weaknesses).

We are better with him on the court than off - a lot better. 

Kyle Lowry is a better player though.

Still, I think we need scoring more than we need defense, since we have a lot of good defenders as it is but we really have no explosive scorers outside of Thomas.  If we lose Thomas, then I don't think we could make up for that offensive loss with any other PG outside of Curry or Westbrook.  Not sure any of those other PG's can carry the scoring load the way Thomas can.

[jpotter33]

The defensive rating with I.T. on the floor is a team worst 101.2.  With I.T. off the floor it is a team best 94.7.  He is a tremendous defensive liability.  He ideally should not be starting and would indeed be much more effective off the bench.

Then have have defensive minded players surrounding him. His scoring and passing ability is excellent and should be best be served as a starter.

As someone said, what does Isaiah need to do in order to earn respect around here? He's the first Celtic in 2-3 seasons to be selected as an All Star and he's still a sixth man on a contender team?

It's because that's the traditional role for a volume-scoring, shoot-first, poor-D guard in this league, which IT is. That doesn't mean you can't respect him. I think Celtics fans of all people should know that you can respect a sixth man on a contender team, since McHale and Walton are two of the best sixth men to have ever won the award.

Here's some of the last people to win the sixth man of the year award: Lou Williams, Jamal Crawford, J.R. Smith, James Harden, Jason Terry, Manu Ginobli, Leandro Barbosa, etc. I see a lot of volume-scoring, shoot-first, poor-D guards in that group..

[PhoSita]

Lowry is a great deal better.  Lowry's been the second best player in the Eastern Conference this year.

[Rondo9]

The defensive rating with I.T. on the floor is a team worst 101.2.  With I.T. off the floor it is a team best 94.7.  He is a tremendous defensive liability.  He ideally should not be starting and would indeed be much more effective off the bench.

Then have have defensive minded players surrounding him. His scoring and passing ability is excellent and should be best be served as a starter.

As someone said, what does Isaiah need to do in order to earn respect around here? He's the first Celtic in 2-3 seasons to be selected as an All Star and he's still a sixth man on a contender team?

It's because that's the traditional role for a volume-scoring, shoot-first, poor-D guard in this league, which IT is. That doesn't mean you can't respect him. I think Celtics fans of all people should know that you can respect a sixth man on a contender team, since McHale and Walton are two of the best sixth men to have ever won the award.

Here's some of the last people to win the sixth man of the year award: Lou Williams, Jamal Crawford, J.R. Smith, James Harden, Jason Terry, Manu Ginobli, Leandro Barbosa, etc. I see a lot of volume-scoring, shoot-first, poor-D guards in that group..

And most of them aren't the passer that Isaiah Thomas most of them aren't even All Stars. (Manu was starting when he became All Star.) Seriously where's Isaiah's respect? The man has proven himself time and time again and he's STILL a bench player at best. His strengths far outstrips his weakness and he's one of the main reasons the Celtics are even in the playoffs right now.

[Rondo9]

The defensive rating with I.T. on the floor is a team worst 101.2.  With I.T. off the floor it is a team best 94.7.  He is a tremendous defensive liability.  He ideally should not be starting and would indeed be much more effective off the bench.

Then have have defensive minded players surrounding him. His scoring and passing ability is excellent and should be best be served as a starter.

As someone said, what does Isaiah need to do in order to earn respect around here? He's the first Celtic in 2-3 seasons to be selected as an All Star and he's still a sixth man on a contender team?

Right.

Get a bunch of Crowders and Smarts and try to win 74-72 every game.

I didn't mean to imply that he can carry a team, but I'm pretty sure a strong defense can mask his weakness.

[The Oracle]

The defensive rating with I.T. on the floor is a team worst 101.2.  With I.T. off the floor it is a team best 94.7.  He is a tremendous defensive liability.  He ideally should not be starting and would indeed be much more effective off the bench.

Thomas has a defensive Real Plus Minus of -2.37 which ranks 65th out of 84 at the PG spot.

He also has an offensive Real Plus Minus of +4.49 which ranks 6th out of 84 at the PG spot.

Combine the two and he has an overall Real Plus Minus of +2.12 which ranks 9th among all NBA PG's. 

He might be a defensive liability (since he makes us worse on defense), but his defense is not a liability (since his offensive benefits far outweight his defensive weaknesses).

We are better with him on the court than off - a lot better. 

Kyle Lowry is a better player though.

Still, I think we need scoring more than we need defense, since we have a lot of good defenders as it is but we really have no explosive scorers outside of Thomas.  If we lose Thomas, then I don't think we could make up for that offensive loss with any other PG outside of Curry or Westbrook.  Not sure any of those other PG's can carry the scoring load the way Thomas can.

Nowhere in my post did I say I.T. was a liability to have on the floor, his offense has always outweighed his defense.  I love I.T. and he can be an integral part of the Celtics going forward.  With that said, come playoff time he is going to be exploited and game planned for heavily.  It is much easier to hide him if he is coming off the bench.  Don't you think those RPM numbers would improve if he was coming off the bench?

   

[loco_91]

Regarding this '6th man' thing, it's just stupid. Ideally LeBron James is a 6th man because you have five other players who are better than him. I really think people are just saying this because he's short. Look at Kyrie Irving - he's another dynamic scoring PG who plays even worse D than IT.  He plays for a contender. Is anyone calling for him to come off the bench?

It's this kind of crap that keeps IT motivated. Keep it up.