The trade deadline and the standings

[colincb]

I take issue with this "it's been a quick rebuild" thing.

If "rebuild" means "get back to competing for a playoff spot," then yes, by all means.

My criteria is a little more stringent though.  I won't consider the team "rebuilt" until they're relevant in any discussion of the post-season.  Which, to me, means that, though they might not be considered an actual contender, they are regarded as a team with a chance of knocking off a contender, i.e. the sort of team a contender would not like to face on their way to the Finals (example would be the Grizzlies of the last few years, the Pacers a couple years back, and those Chicago teams that unfortunately could never stay healthy).

When they do finally reach that point, I'll only be truly satisfied with it if there seems to be a plausible avenue for taking yet another step toward genuine contention, and sustaining that level of success for the foreseeable future.

Yes, I have high standards.  I'm OK with that.

I think the Celts are still a great distance from being "rebuilt," given all of that.  It's a scrappy team that's been up and down due to deficiencies in talent and size, but they're well coached and deep.  Nevertheless, I don't think they have a prayer in the post-season.  This team is not built for playoff basketball. 

All of which is fine.  This rebuild only just began a couple years ago.


Anyway, I think this will be a quiet deadline, and the names most likely to move -- Ryan Anderson and Markieff Morris top the list for me -- don't seem like they'd help the Celts all that much.

I don't think anyone thinks of this team as "rebuilt" Pho. It's certainly still re-building. Some of the players we have now won't be here when were a contender again. Some of them will, IMO. I think Danny Ainge would agree with you. We're not "rebuilt" until we have a team that is capable of winning a title.

That said, in year three of our rebuild, were the 5th youngest team in the entire NBA and were already an almost certain playoff team, one that could very well be a top 4 or 5 seed by the time it's all said and done. That's pretty dang good. Were obviously not done yet. But our young guys have showed some major improvement, and it's quite possible for us to go from a high lottery team, to a .500ish fringe playoff team, to a 45-49 win 4 or 5 seed in just three years (which shows marked continued improvement) while also having an almost guaranteed top 5 pick, with an excellent chance at the top pick.

You guys aren't the only people who have high expectations for the Celtics. But if your at all reasonable, you can see that this rebuild is going just about as well as we could possibly imagine. Just think about this: As of right now, it's very possible if not likely, that we ride a clearly improving team, one of the youngest teams in the NBA to a playoff run while we also receive one of the highest lottery picks in the draft (And a very good chance at one of Simmons/Ingram). In the 3rd year of our rebuild! Is that not more than you could've hoped for the day we traded Pierce and KG?

Boston is only 2.5 games from being out of the playoffs and almost just as easily could end up out of the playoffs as in it. Heck Boston is only 5.5 games from a bottom three record in the East (that is also the distance from the 2 seed).

The East is a jumbled mess outside of Cleveland at the top and Philly and Brooklyn at the bottom.  Trying to predict any sort of finish is silly, especially with the trade deadline looming.

ESPN says our playoff odds are 98.4%.

[PhoSita]

What bothers me are the people that think 2 championships in 30 years is pretty good. We are the Celtics and championships really only matter, especially since we have the most.

Guess what, it's not the 50s anymore and the NBA no longer consists of 8 teams.

True.  If you judge your team's success solely on championships won, you're going to be disappointed far more often than not.

We'd all love to see the Celts draft the next all-time great and dominate the league for the next 15 years, but you can't really "plan" to do that.

I think we can hold the Celts to the expectation of constructing a team with a core that can be in the conversation for going deep in the playoffs and maybe winning a title (if all goes right), for an extended period of time (e.g. 5-10 years).

[Moranis]

I take issue with this "it's been a quick rebuild" thing.

If "rebuild" means "get back to competing for a playoff spot," then yes, by all means.

My criteria is a little more stringent though.  I won't consider the team "rebuilt" until they're relevant in any discussion of the post-season.  Which, to me, means that, though they might not be considered an actual contender, they are regarded as a team with a chance of knocking off a contender, i.e. the sort of team a contender would not like to face on their way to the Finals (example would be the Grizzlies of the last few years, the Pacers a couple years back, and those Chicago teams that unfortunately could never stay healthy).

When they do finally reach that point, I'll only be truly satisfied with it if there seems to be a plausible avenue for taking yet another step toward genuine contention, and sustaining that level of success for the foreseeable future.

Yes, I have high standards.  I'm OK with that.

I think the Celts are still a great distance from being "rebuilt," given all of that.  It's a scrappy team that's been up and down due to deficiencies in talent and size, but they're well coached and deep.  Nevertheless, I don't think they have a prayer in the post-season.  This team is not built for playoff basketball. 

All of which is fine.  This rebuild only just began a couple years ago.


Anyway, I think this will be a quiet deadline, and the names most likely to move -- Ryan Anderson and Markieff Morris top the list for me -- don't seem like they'd help the Celts all that much.

I don't think anyone thinks of this team as "rebuilt" Pho. It's certainly still re-building. Some of the players we have now won't be here when were a contender again. Some of them will, IMO. I think Danny Ainge would agree with you. We're not "rebuilt" until we have a team that is capable of winning a title.

That said, in year three of our rebuild, were the 5th youngest team in the entire NBA and were already an almost certain playoff team, one that could very well be a top 4 or 5 seed by the time it's all said and done. That's pretty dang good. Were obviously not done yet. But our young guys have showed some major improvement, and it's quite possible for us to go from a high lottery team, to a .500ish fringe playoff team, to a 45-49 win 4 or 5 seed in just three years (which shows marked continued improvement) while also having an almost guaranteed top 5 pick, with an excellent chance at the top pick.

You guys aren't the only people who have high expectations for the Celtics. But if your at all reasonable, you can see that this rebuild is going just about as well as we could possibly imagine. Just think about this: As of right now, it's very possible if not likely, that we ride a clearly improving team, one of the youngest teams in the NBA to a playoff run while we also receive one of the highest lottery picks in the draft (And a very good chance at one of Simmons/Ingram). In the 3rd year of our rebuild! Is that not more than you could've hoped for the day we traded Pierce and KG?

Boston is only 2.5 games from being out of the playoffs and almost just as easily could end up out of the playoffs as in it. Heck Boston is only 5.5 games from a bottom three record in the East (that is also the distance from the 2 seed).

The East is a jumbled mess outside of Cleveland at the top and Philly and Brooklyn at the bottom.  Trying to predict any sort of finish is silly, especially with the trade deadline looming.

ESPN says our playoff odds are 98.4%.

and we at one point were supposed to go something like 24-11 and that didn't get anywhere near happening.  Those odds have 9 teams at over 50% as well. 

[colincb]

DEL

[colincb]

I take issue with this "it's been a quick rebuild" thing.

If "rebuild" means "get back to competing for a playoff spot," then yes, by all means.

My criteria is a little more stringent though.  I won't consider the team "rebuilt" until they're relevant in any discussion of the post-season.  Which, to me, means that, though they might not be considered an actual contender, they are regarded as a team with a chance of knocking off a contender, i.e. the sort of team a contender would not like to face on their way to the Finals (example would be the Grizzlies of the last few years, the Pacers a couple years back, and those Chicago teams that unfortunately could never stay healthy).

When they do finally reach that point, I'll only be truly satisfied with it if there seems to be a plausible avenue for taking yet another step toward genuine contention, and sustaining that level of success for the foreseeable future.

Yes, I have high standards.  I'm OK with that.

I think the Celts are still a great distance from being "rebuilt," given all of that.  It's a scrappy team that's been up and down due to deficiencies in talent and size, but they're well coached and deep.  Nevertheless, I don't think they have a prayer in the post-season.  This team is not built for playoff basketball. 

All of which is fine.  This rebuild only just began a couple years ago.


Anyway, I think this will be a quiet deadline, and the names most likely to move -- Ryan Anderson and Markieff Morris top the list for me -- don't seem like they'd help the Celts all that much.

I don't think anyone thinks of this team as "rebuilt" Pho. It's certainly still re-building. Some of the players we have now won't be here when were a contender again. Some of them will, IMO. I think Danny Ainge would agree with you. We're not "rebuilt" until we have a team that is capable of winning a title.

That said, in year three of our rebuild, were the 5th youngest team in the entire NBA and were already an almost certain playoff team, one that could very well be a top 4 or 5 seed by the time it's all said and done. That's pretty dang good. Were obviously not done yet. But our young guys have showed some major improvement, and it's quite possible for us to go from a high lottery team, to a .500ish fringe playoff team, to a 45-49 win 4 or 5 seed in just three years (which shows marked continued improvement) while also having an almost guaranteed top 5 pick, with an excellent chance at the top pick.

You guys aren't the only people who have high expectations for the Celtics. But if your at all reasonable, you can see that this rebuild is going just about as well as we could possibly imagine. Just think about this: As of right now, it's very possible if not likely, that we ride a clearly improving team, one of the youngest teams in the NBA to a playoff run while we also receive one of the highest lottery picks in the draft (And a very good chance at one of Simmons/Ingram). In the 3rd year of our rebuild! Is that not more than you could've hoped for the day we traded Pierce and KG?

Boston is only 2.5 games from being out of the playoffs and almost just as easily could end up out of the playoffs as in it. Heck Boston is only 5.5 games from a bottom three record in the East (that is also the distance from the 2 seed).

The East is a jumbled mess outside of Cleveland at the top and Philly and Brooklyn at the bottom.  Trying to predict any sort of finish is silly, especially with the trade deadline looming.

ESPN says our playoff odds are 98.4%.

and we at one point were supposed to go something like 24-11 and that didn't get anywhere near happening.  Those odds have 9 teams at over 50% as well.

So what. You said there's a good chance that we're going to fall out of the playoffs. Why? So there's only going to be 9 teams that are going to be 500 or above and we're going to be 9th or have a losing record? Based on what? Because you don't know the unknown or because it doesn't fit your narrative or because of random bad luck? Why will Danny be silent at the deadline while everyone else pushes by us making brilliant deals.

The Cs are projected to be the 3rd best team in the ECF. Will they be? Who knows, It's a statistical model and there's going to be noise, but it's based on historical performance of teams with similar scoring margins, strength of schedule, and the Cs performance this year. Average scoring margin is the single best estimator of performance for what should be intuitively obvious reasons. If you have something better, let people know, but I'll take the ESPN model over your we don't know what's going to happen gloom and doom narrative. I'll bet the odds when there in my favor and right now they're 62-1 in my favor that we'll make the playoffs.

[CelticPride2016]

This guy who wants a discussion with me comes from an angle of obtuse pedantry.

Anyone can google, "What is an NBA rebuild?"

The person trying to engage with me makes it seem that my idea that the rebuild is basically over is ludicrous.

How long should NBA teams be allowed to rebuild?
http://www.sbnation.com/2015/12/8/9870712/nba-rebuilding-projects-hornets-magic-pacers-76ers-magic

The Celtics timetable has been quicker, but it wasn't until the second year when things started to click and they also made some savvy trades for players as well as picks. Of course, not every rebuilding team has the stars to try and get a Godfather offer. So I think we need to differentiate between the full-scale rebuild and the quick-fix.

The basketball blogger was discussing Orlando's rebuild, then segued to the Celtics.

I guess here goes with my off the cuff defining of terms concerning NBA team Meta:

Treadmill: This is an easy one. It is a team which has a solid identity and general consistency with a roster, but it is not good enough to be labeled a true contender. It keeps getting mediocre draft picks and is over the cap. They need to decide whether to stay the course or blow it up.

Tanking: The M.L. Carr style has apparently been outlawed or extremely frowned upon. People can look into that. I am too busy to find a link proving how morally wrong our team was that one year. Philadelphia has been in the basketball news due to their blatant disregard for the principles of sportsmanship. The 76'ers took it a step further than M.L. did. They made their roster so bad, they don't have to cheat and outright fix games.

Players never tank. That is true.

Rebuilding: This starts as soon as a team on the treadmill is "blown up." Yes, it comes down to changing over the roster and heading in a new, pioneering direction.

That's already been completed.

Rosters change all the time. Our 2012 team looked quite different from year one of the Big Three. It was painful. It turned into a treadmill and Doc and Danny had no answers.

The rebuilding started with Brad Stevens as head coach. The blogger quoted above seems to think our rebuild ended after a year and a half.

This is no longer a rebuild. It is now about playing out the cards after blowing it up. We are in the "dust has settled" period.

I agree we are not a finished team, but that if folks want to define what we currently are, the dialogue should be about retooling, not rebuilding.

Maybe Avery Bradley will be traded over the next couple years. If so, I think we can assume who we get in return will be a rotation player on our already finished team.

Amir will beat Father Time or he won't. Zeller will shine through the logjam or not. But their roles are defined and they will continue to gel or two others will fill their roles. That's not rebuilding. That is called the flow of time.

Turner, Sully and Young are the only players I currently have pegged as on the way out.

We have the Brooklyn pick. That is huge. Who knows what Danny will do with it.

The first year was a mess, but somehow Wyc, Danny, the players, Brad, and us fans got through it. Our tanking got us a #6 pick and rotation player.

The second year saw perhaps even more confusion, as the final pieces of the blow up were moved. The turning point was the more Danny tried to tank us from the administrative angle, the more we competed for the playoff spot. Then Danny finally said if I can't beat them and make them lose, I will join them, and he picked up Isaiah Thomas who does things on the court only a great player can.

The Celtics may have very low odds to win the title or even get to the ECF, but the rosters are not set. Hopefully Danny gets rid of the deadwood I have selected and then we have some fun watching if Smart, Olynyk, Amir, Crowder, Bradley and whoever is left on the roster can make a run for #18. A rebuilding team is not one going for a championship no matter how low the odds. The Celtics are on the rise. Watch and learn as they start piling up wins.

[spikelovetheCelts]

Hibbert's name keeps popping up in this group as a possible trade acquisition. Is he a legitimate player any more? His plus-minus is off-the-chart dreadful this year. Why would he be a consideration?

For Lee who is not coming back. Hibbert could be helpful when things slow down in the Playoffs. It was on Hoops Habit the other day.  It is not a earth shattering move but I think he could help when a close playoff game with his D.

[CelticPride2016]

Hibbert's name keeps popping up in this group as a possible trade acquisition. Is he a legitimate player any more? His plus-minus is off-the-chart dreadful this year. Why would he be a consideration?

For Lee who is not coming back. Hibbert could be helpful when things slow down in the Playoffs. It was on Hoops Habit the other day.  It is not a earth shattering move but I think he could help when a close playoff game with his D.

I plead ignorance on Roy Hibbert. I somewhat remember when he was good and Indiana was a true threat, but that didn't seem to last too long. Can he run? That to me is the most important question. It is why I am done with Jared Sullinger who is still overweight. The other question is can Hibbert rotate in a team oriented defense?

This would simply be another roll of the dice the way Danny got Lee for Wallace. That would have to be the deal, imho, with not much else added for so-called sweeteners.

I would make that trade without even blinking as long as the two questions are answered yes.

Give them Lee and the Dallas pick? Would they do that? They can also have James Young. Maybe they have a serviceable pg and they get Evan Turner?

I know what I'd do if I was Danny. I'd do a few trades to balance the roster and tighten the core identity formed forcing the league to notice the Celtics have become a true player.